Not sure if I can call myself "Christian" anymore.

[Orion]

So then, what say you of the words as stated in these verses?


John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one].




.

As I said before, "being one" can just as easily mean the same as a husband and wife becoming one. It is being one in spirit and goals, but the two are still distinct individuals.

Oh, and from the definition given, I'm hardly a modalist.

 

[Orion]

Okay, Atonement, yes you could say that I pick it apart. But it is because I don't really believe that every single passage in our Canon is from God. Remember, a counsel of MEN decided what THEY thought was inspired and what was "heretical".

Here's the thing on the killings of the Bible. The reason why I see it as contrary to Jesus is that Jesus taught to love your enemy. Pray for those who persecute you. Turn the other cheek. Yet, we have the Hebrew people believing that the were given a land, by God, and on their way there, anyone who opposed their belief system were wiped out, . . . . unless they had superior equipment. I see these sort of marauding ventures in this way: If they did well in battle, it was written down in their books that "God's favor was upon them". If they lost battles, then "God was angry with them because of some sin in their midst". But I believe that these escapades were the work of a cultural group of people wanting to get what they wanted and were brutal enough to kill anyone in their way and say that God told them to do so.

Yes, rules ARE given today. But we're talking about the death penalty for simply being an unruly son. That is keeping people in line due to the most extreme fear. I could never see "true devotion" based on that kind of extreme punishment. True devotion is seen very well in many of the parables that Jesus gave.

I believe that there are parts of the Old Testament that probably did happen. I think that a lot of the Psalms were written by David when he was living the days of the book of Samuel and the trials and good times there. He praised God during the good times and wondered where God was when his enemies were encamped around him. These are great words to live by, but if they were ONLY the words directly given by God, then where does the thoughts and heart of the Psalmist go? If they were not HIS words, then it completely removes the humanity of the situation out of it!

 

[christian_soldier]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It doesn't get much clearer than that!

 

[Orion]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

It doesn't get much clearer than that!

Yes! One in how they bear record! In other words, they are in agreement. When I was married, WE became one. I can tell you with certainty, we were not the same person, there were still two of us.

 

[Rhetorickety]

Praying is important. Jesus said that God knows all our needs, and that when we pray, we should pray like He said, and God will fulfill our needs. But it is also important to pray for all kinds of things, bringing many requests before Him, and to petition to Him. Orion, pray for your wife, that she may be freed from this web of turning her back and then questioning why she is not happy.

If we are farther away from God, it is because we have first moved away from Him.

So come closer to God, and He will come closer to you. Confess your own sins, and humble yourself, so that God will forgive you, and come closer to you. I'm not saying you deserved what happened. But take this opportunity to become stronger in the Lord. For surely, we should rejoice in trials of many kinds, for in these, we become stronger. We are more than just what our own problems make us out to be, and we have responsibilities that are greater than ourselves, and we need to be a strong church for God, one that accepts Him and knows Him, and does not forsake Him.

Sir, I am a lowly man, but I know some things.

And brother, it is written that if you do not have faith that you will get what you ask for, you will surely not get it! So have faith.

 

[Orion]

Rhetorickety, I like your user name.

When I was in the battle with my wife in trying to get her back into right living, and the counselors as well, there were MANY prayers going up for her all over the place. However, we hold the power to control our own wills, and she decided to walk the path she is walking. I know there are still people praying for her, and I even pray for her every now and then. But she is no longer my wife. We're divorced. A part of me does hope that she will come around and be the person she should be, and I can even have faith that such a thing will happen. But these past experiences have shown me that the opposite is more likely. And that is the saddest part about this.

As for faith, I know that with God, all things are possible. My pastor even likes to give this advice: Don't just say that God CAN do anything, but wait with anticipation in what God WILL do in your situation. They are great words, . . . but it is very tough holding to them. I'm doing the best that I can, in my circumstance.

 

[Rhetorickety]

I am glad, and I was in the middle of changing my post before you replied, so that when you did reply, it was while I was changing it. I put an event of my life in there, but my sister in Christ might get very angry with me if she ever found out about it, so, I'll just edit it away... I will pray for you.

 

[Atonement]

Okay, Atonement, yes you could say that I pick it apart. But it is because I don't really believe that every single passage in our Canon is from God. Remember, a counsel of MEN decided what THEY thought was inspired and what was "heretical".

Orion, these men that "penned" the Bible were of God's choosing. God choose men of all backgrounds to spread His message. We can go all the way back to Abraham people like: Fishermen, tax collectors, prisoners etc. My point Orion is this. Back in 1947 I know you are probably familiar with this, but cave diggers found some scrolls by the dead sea. They carbon dated these scrolls and they were found to be dated somewhere in the first century B.C. Many other scholars believe it was in the third century B.C. Either way it was at least 600-800 years before Christ. In 1611 the KJV version of the Bible was pressed. The entire book of Isaiah can be found to be exact as in the Dead Sea scrolls. God does preserve is Word

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Here's the thing on the killings of the Bible. The reason why I see it as contrary to Jesus is that Jesus taught to love your enemy. Pray for those who persecute you. Turn the other cheek. Yet, we have the Hebrew people believing that the were given a land, by God, and on their way there, anyone who opposed their belief system were wiped out, . . . . unless they had superior equipment. I see these sort of marauding ventures in this way: If they did well in battle, it was written down in their books that "God's favor was upon them". If they lost battles, then "God was angry with them because of some sin in their midst". But I believe that these escapades were the work of a cultural group of people wanting to get what they wanted and were brutal enough to kill anyone in their way and say that God told them to do so.

Orion, what about the wars of today? And all the babies that are born with deformities? All the death and destruction in the Middle East? Does God not love these people? We live in a sinful world and until Christ comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords peace will be with held from this world

Yes, rules ARE given today. But we're talking about the death penalty for simply being an unruly son. That is keeping people in line due to the most extreme fear. I could never see "true devotion" based on that kind of extreme punishment. True devotion is seen very well in many of the parables that Jesus gave.


Orion do you see God as a monster in the OT? Many people do! Jesus came in love and humbleness, a gentle lamb to be slaughtered on the Cross. He spoke words that were beautiful and that touched men's souls. Do you see that same Jesus coming back again?

Jesus came as a Lamb, He's coming again as a Lion. Jesus came to be slaughtered, He's coming back as a conquer. Jesus came and spoke peace and love. He's coming back to speak with a sword of Judgment. He came as a gentle Savior, He's coming back again as King of Kings. Jesus was crowned with a crown of thorns, He's coming back with many crowns of gold. Jesus came and shed His Blood, He's coming back with a robe dipped in blood of the men that reject Him. Jesus came riding in on a donkey, He's coming back on a horse. This is the God I serve.

I believe that there are parts of the Old Testament that probably did happen. I think that a lot of the Psalms were written by David when he was living the days of the book of Samuel and the trials and good times there. He praised God during the good times and wondered where God was when his enemies were encamped around him. These are great words to live by, but if they were ONLY the words directly given by God, then where does the thoughts and heart of the Psalmist go? If they were not HIS words, then it completely removes the humanity of the situation out of it!

These were the words of men, in both good and hard times (look at Job). These men were mighty and poetic. Allows us to see why God choose such great people for inspiration. We as men can not say what was in the heart of the soul of David and Solomon when they wrote those beautiful words found in the Psalms and Proverbs. Was it a cry to God in their spirit? Was it a poetry from their heart? I believe it was inspired by God in both.

Atonement's response in red

 

[Quath]

Orion, these men that "penned" the Bible were of God's choosing.

I would have to disagree with this. There were many more penned books. People decided which to keep and which to ignore. You may claim that God made these people decide through the Holy Spirit, bit if God did, then it is easy to claim he did a bad job. The Protestants felt moved to change the Bible. (And was this by the same Holy Spirit that set the Bible in the first place?) Add to that that Mormons claim that God chose the Book of Mormon as well. So I think that no matter what your denomination, you must believe that God does not stop people from making false claims that the books for the Bible are only divinely chosen.

We as men can not say what was in the heart of the soul of David and Solomon when they wrote those beautiful words found in the Psalms and Proverbs. Was it a cry to God in their spirit? Was it a poetry from their heart? I believe it was inspired by God in both.

Some people are not comfortable with the stuff in Psalm like

Psalm 137:9 - Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock.
This makes God out to be very blood thirsty being that he would bless people who purposely smash babies against rocks. I would hope that some Christians would be a little hesitant to endorse this.

 

[Atonement]

Quath Psalm 137 is about what? Babylon!! verse 9: it's about those that reward Babylon, that are happy to take children and kill them against rocks. Does God reward Babylon? If you think that, you better read it again, for it was destroyed by God.. Read the entire chapter not the last verse and say looky here God is "blood thirsty being" the author was talking in a third sense about them that reward Babylon of their atrocity. Huge difference.. HUGE..

Also let it be known Quath, when the Bible references God as He/Him/His it's ALWAYS in Capital letters... Doh!

Verse: 9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

The rest of your post is a great opinion you have.. By the way what is your denomination? Your an atheist right? If I was to pick Scripture apart as you just did I would probably be an atheist as well Quath, No pun intended of course..

 

[Orion]

Orion, these men that "penned" the Bible were of God's choosing. God choose men of all backgrounds to spread His message. We can go all the way back to Abraham people like: Fishermen, tax collectors, prisoners etc. My point Orion is this. Back in 1947 I know you are probably familiar with this, but cave diggers found some scrolls by the dead sea. They carbon dated these scrolls and they were found to be dated somewhere in the first century B.C. Many other scholars believe it was in the third century B.C. Either way it was at least 600-800 years before Christ. In 1611 the KJV version of the Bible was pressed. The entire book of Isaiah can be found to be exact as in the Dead Sea scrolls. God does preserve is Word

I don't see how you can say they were of God's choosing. They simply wrote stuff down. But even if that were so, I don't think we can know for sure that all of them WERE, or even the ones who WERE, always were inspired. And as for the Dead Sea Scrolls, even if they were dated to that time, it was still a man who penned it.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

If all scripture is inspired, then those manuscripts that were left out because they were "heretical" was decided upon by men. In fact, men decided what was to be in or out. . . . a counsel of MEN. Men with flaws and their own personal vendettas/hangups. Maybe something THEY thought was heretical was actually inspired! :-? Bottom line is, even 2 Timothy was written by a man. How much of it was actually inspired is unprovable.

Orion, what about the wars of today? And all the babies that are born with deformities? All the death and destruction in the Middle East? Does God not love these people? We live in a sinful world and until Christ comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords peace will be with held from this world

I guess I don't understand how today is in question. Bad things have always happened. :-?

Orion do you see God as a monster in the OT? Many people do! Jesus came in love and humbleness, a gentle lamb to be slaughtered on the Cross. He spoke words that were beautiful and that touched men's souls. Do you see that same Jesus coming back again?

Again, I don't believe that God really had a hand in a lot of what the Hebrews were doing. God often allows people to do bad things, even in His name. It still happens today. It means that PEOPLE are the real monsters. God is just blamed for it most of the time.

Jesus came as a Lamb, He's coming again as a Lion. Jesus came to be slaughtered, He's coming back as a conquer. Jesus came and spoke peace and love. He's coming back to speak with a sword of Judgment. He came as a gentle Savior, He's coming back again as King of Kings. Jesus was crowned with a crown of thorns, He's coming back with many crowns of gold. Jesus came and shed His Blood, He's coming back with a robe dipped in blood of the men that reject Him. Jesus came riding in on a donkey, He's coming back on a horse. This is the God I serve.

The idea of a "conquerer" must have been quite a comfort for those early Christians who were being so persecuted. It is very apparent in the imagery of the Bible, mainly in Revelation. We have huge amounts of bloodshed by the armies of God and Jesus and the souls of the saints crying out for vengeance at the ones that killed them.

Hmmmm, I look at those "martyred souls" and think, "so, you were killed and you are separated from your earthly body. What's the problem?!! You're with God, for pete sake! You're in His presence and you are still whining about the men who killed your vessel of dirt??" :smt083

These were the words of men, in both good and hard times (look at Job). These men were mighty and poetic. Allows us to see why God choose such great people for inspiration. We as men can not say what was in the heart of the soul of David and Solomon when they wrote those beautiful words found in the Psalms and Proverbs. Was it a cry to God in their spirit? Was it a poetry from their heart? I believe it was inspired by God in both.

But if these were the words of men, such as what David wrote, then not all of the words in the Bible are directly the words of God. Right? :-?

 

[Lewis]

orion' I see that you are not convinced that the Bible was penned by The Holy Ghost using men. That will cause you some big problems. In all areas of your life.

 

[Orion]

orion' I see that you are not convinced that the Bible was penned by The Holy Ghost using men. That will cause you some big problems. In all areas of your life.

I don't see many problems with it. I see God in the parables, such as the Prodigal Son. The analogy of the father makes me want to be in that presence. I don't really want to be in the presence of vengence, nor a part of a Revelation massacre. I don't want to see people in pain, even if they are misguided. :roll:

 

[Lewis]

I don't see many problems with it. I see God in the parables, such as the Prodigal Son. The analogy of the father makes me want to be in that presence. I don't really want to be in the presence of vengence, nor a part of a Revelation massacre. I don't want to see people in pain, even if they are misguided. :roll:

Well my brother' you have a long way to go. But I understand that you don't want to see pain. God does not ether' but sometimes he must give it.

 

[Atonement]

I don't see how you can say they were of God's choosing. They simply wrote stuff down. But even if that were so, I don't think we can know for sure that all of them WERE, or even the ones who WERE, always were inspired. And as for the Dead Sea Scrolls, even if they were dated to that time, it was still a man who penned it.

Orion, I'm not here to convince you other wise. I can say it because I have God's Word on it


2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Orion, rather you are convinced or not about the profitably of God's Word is your faith alone to work out with God. No man can do this. That is between you and God.

I guess I don't understand how today is in question. Bad things have always happened

Was just trying to use an anology here Orion

Again, I don't believe that God really had a hand in a lot of what the Hebrews were doing. God often allows people to do bad things, even in His name. It still happens today. It means that PEOPLE are the real monsters. God is just blamed for it most of the time.

Agreed

But if these were the words of men, such as what David wrote, then not all of the words in the Bible are directly the words of God. Right?

It was inspired by God through the Holy Spirit on man. It was not direct quotes from God's mouth at all times, but also out of the mouth of men that God inspired to have written. I think this is where you might be confused some.

 

[Quath]

Quath Psalm 137 is about what? Babylon!! verse 9: it's about those that reward Babylon, that are happy to take children and kill them against rocks. Does God reward Babylon? If you think that, you better read it again, for it was destroyed by God.. Read the entire chapter not the last verse and say looky here God is "blood thirsty being" the author was talking in a third sense about them that reward Babylon of their atrocity. Huge difference.. HUGE..

Also let it be known Quath, when the Bible references God as He/Him/His it's ALWAYS in Capital letters... Doh!

This Psalm is a prayer to God to enact vengence upon those the israelites are mad at. It ends with a saying that when God destroys their enemy, they will be blessed (or happy) to kill their babies by smashing them against rocks. I was not say this says God is happy. What this passage says is that God will endorse such actions and this specific instance of baby killing is something to look forward to.

The rest of your post is a great opinion you have.. By the way what is your denomination? Your an atheist right? If I was to pick Scripture apart as you just did I would probably be an atheist as well Quath, No pun intended of course..

Yeah, I am an atheist.

It is very hard for someone to see flaws in their own religion. That is why Muslims can claim the Quan is 100% perfect while we can easily see the errors in it. From within the religion, it is hard to see contradictions and errors. Outside it, it is very easy.

 

[Orion]

It was inspired by God through the Holy Spirit on man. It was not direct quotes from God's mouth at all times, but also out of the mouth of men that God inspired to have written. I think this is where you might be confused some.

I do believe that much of the Bible was inspired writing in that the writer was thinking on God and His goodness and spoke about it. But I also think that a lot of it was just Hebrew history. Maybe even revisionist history when it was actually written down after being told orally for however long. It's fine if they want to say in their history that God told them to do horrific acts, even if they saw it as "holy", but I'm not convinced that God was actually telling them to do these things. Let's say that God wanted to keep the Hebrews free from outside peoples, there were many other places on the planet where they could have located themselves and done so without even seeing another group of people.

However, this is just the way I see it. You all may very well be right. But I just can't reconcile the two contrasting ideologies of the OT and the NT. :-?

 

[Atonement]

This Psalm is a prayer to God to enact vengence upon those the israelites are mad at. It ends with a saying that when God destroys their enemy, they will be blessed (or happy) to kill their babies by smashing them against rocks. I was not say this says God is happy. What this passage says is that God will endorse such actions and this specific instance of baby killing is something to look forward to.

No!! The book of Psalms is a book of praises, poems and songs, it was a temple hymnbook and a devotional guide to the Jewish people. What is a Psalm, what does it mean?? It's a poem or song! There are 150 songs and poems within it. It's also called Psalterium (a collection of songs), and came to be known as Sepher Tehillim -"Book of prasies" Verse: 9 was no prayer.. You are wrong Quath.. You are wrong.. It was a priase that God destroyed Babylon because of the atrocity therein.

Let me add: there are prayers in the Book of Pslams, but the Bible tells us if they are a prayer (i.e. A prayer of David, hear my prayer) etc.

 

[Atonement]

However, this is just the way I see it. You all may very well be right. But I just can't reconcile the two contrasting ideologies of the OT and the NT

And I have to respect your opinion, no matter how wrong I think it might be, there is nothing more I can say. Good luck Orion. I'll keep you in my prayers

 

[mutzrein]

Orion

I haven't read through the whole thread and if this has been answered, tell me.

Do you blame God for what has happened or for not doing what you believe He should?