Obama decries Quran-burning, violent responses

[Hitch]

What do you mean by "a line drawn?" What do you mean by being "a good soldier" and "fights for one side?"

Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

Mat 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

Luk 6:29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

(All from the ESV.)

And 2 Tim 2:3, in context: 2Ti 2:3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

Im curious as to how you think what you wrote relates to pjt's post?

 

[Hitch]

As an American and a person of the Western part of the world it is embarrassing to see a general in our armed forces apologizing to the Muslim world because one of our citizens burned HIS COPY of their religious book while the Muslim world disrespects every religion in the world and seeks to conquer all. I am also embarrassed by those who call themselves christians and who come to the defense of a religion that will kill a woman because she is raped and also is the major cause of many of the present wars in the world. Whether or not the man who burned his book did wrong is a small deal, defending a move of satan to take freedom from the world is a very big deal. Anytime you find yourself defending a move of satan, for whatever the cause, you need to reexamine whether or not you are really on the side of God, you cannot serve two masters, is it Islam or Christ?

Right again Sam

 

[Lewis]

As an American and a person of the Western part of the world it is embarrassing to see a general in our armed forces apologizing to the Muslim world because one of our citizens burned HIS COPY of their religious book while the Muslim world disrespects every religion in the world and seeks to conquer all. I am also embarrassed by those who call themselves christians and who come to the defense of a religion that will kill a woman because she is raped and also is the major cause of many of the present wars in the world. Whether or not the man who burned his book did wrong is a small deal, defending a move of satan to take freedom from the world is a very big deal. Anytime you find yourself defending a move of satan, for whatever the cause, you need to reexamine whether or not you are really on the side of God, you cannot serve two masters, is it Islam or Christ?

:yes:amen

 

[Free]

As an American and a person of the Western part of the world it is embarrassing to see a general in our armed forces apologizing to the Muslim world because one of our citizens burned HIS COPY of their religious book while the Muslim world disrespects every religion in the world and seeks to conquer all. I am also embarrassed by those who call themselves christians and who come to the defense of a religion that will kill a woman because she is raped and also is the major cause of many of the present wars in the world. Whether or not the man who burned his book did wrong is a small deal, defending a move of satan to take freedom from the world is a very big deal. Anytime you find yourself defending a move of satan, for whatever the cause, you need to reexamine whether or not you are really on the side of God, you cannot serve two masters, is it Islam or Christ?

Who is defending a move of Satan? Who is defending Islam? Who is serving two masters? Before you make such arguments, be sure you know what Scripture says. Whether or not be burned his own copy is irrelevant to the fact that he burnt another religions holy book. It is also irrelevant what you think of their beliefs or their holy book.

What matters is what Christ said about how we are to treat our enemies. What matters is what Paul says in Romans 12:17-21:

Rom 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody.
Rom 12:18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
Rom 12:19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
Rom 12:20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (NIV)

Jesus didn't come to show us how to incite another religion to violence or utterly disrespect another religion's beliefs. He came, at least in part, so that we could be his ambassadors, the salt and light that this world desperately needs. There is absolutely nothing about burning another religion's holy book that can be reconciled or supported by Scripture. In fact, I would suggest that it is anti-gospel.

Im curious as to how you think what you wrote relates to pjt's post?

It's pretty clear if you read the questions.

 

[AKJVReader]

Acts 19:14-20:

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.
19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.


I think that if these Muslims converted to Christianity and understood the love of Jesus Christ and the Gospel then they would be tempted to burn there own Korans.

 

[kiwimac]

So now we must burn books? Not me!

 

[jasoncran]

So now we must burn books? Not me!

on this sentiment. while i have no love for islam , and i have been to country and know how they think.

so if my jewish family converts to christ. should they burn the torah/tanakh/and the prophets as that isnt a christian bible.

if its not the christian holy bible then its burn away upon repentance.

 

[pjt]

on this sentiment. while i have no love for islam , and i have been to country and know how they think.

so if my jewish family converts to christ. should they burn the torah/tanakh/and the prophets as that isnt a christian bible.

if its not the christian holy bible then its burn away upon repentance.

Jason, when did the torah and prophets no longer become part of the Christian Bible? It`s in my Bible and I believe every single word of what is said from Genesis to Revelation. Judism and Christianity go hand in hand.

 

[pjt]

What do you mean by "a line drawn?" What do you mean by being "a good soldier" and "fights for one side?"

Mat 5:11 "Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

Mat 5:40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.

Luk 6:29 To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either.

Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

(All from the ESV.)

And 2 Tim 2:3, in context: 2Ti 2:3 Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

Free, the scriptures you gave are when evil strikes and we can`t escape, but all through the Bible we are compelled to flee from evil not embrace it. To walk with evil is the mark of a fool according to Proverbs. We need to avoid it, but to avoid it we have to identify it. I think this is what that pastor was trying to do. Talk was not working so he took a bolder action to try and make people see the evil that needs to be avoided. On the other hand, there are times evil just jumps on us and we can`t avoid it. When that happens, God tells us how to deal with it and that is where the scriptures you quoted apply. At those times we can`t let our hearts be overcome with hate and cursings, but we have to protect our hearts by forgiving and being kind and loving even in the face of evil.

As for drawing a line, I mean just that. At some point as Christians we have to decide who we want to stand up for. Are we truly a family of God? Then we need to act like it. We can`t be throwing our own people under the bus to run and support those who follow other gods. We have to draw a line and say are we going to stand by our faith, not stradle the fence with another faith. My time is limited and even if it were not, I am not sure I could articulate this thought well enough but it really concerns me that there is almost no loyalty within the Christian community. Therefore, there is no "oneness" as God calls for His people to be. He wants us to stand strong and support one another, but we are much more likely to support anyone but our own. We are very quick to throw our own under the bus to run and support a nonBeliever and ironically not just a nonBeliever but often one who is antagonistic to God and Believers. I draw a line when someone spits on my brother or sister, I`m not going to jump on the bandwagon to join hands with them. I will go wipe the spit off my brother or sister`s face with my own bare hand instead, but others choose to join hands with the spitter and say the brother deserved the spit and mock him along with the spitter. If my brother or sister is wrong, I will still go to wipe off the spit and will probably tell him/her I thought he/she was wrong, but I still will not join hands with the one who spit on my brethern. If my brethern did nothing wrong, I will not spit back at the spitter but I`m not going to join hands with him. And there is no where in the Bible I can find that says to join hands with those who despise God or His people.

Being a good solider would take time to explain but basically a good solider is one who stands loyal and strong to his country/troop. As Christians our country/troop is God`s kingdom. This is where our loyalty should unwaveringly stand---to God, His ways and His people. Think of being on the battlefield. Soldiers are working, struggling, and fighting along side each other, one is shot in the leg and falls down. A solider from the enemy side also is shot in the leg and falls down, who does the good soldier run to help? The enemy who will only rise up and shoot him or the man in his own troop? If he goes to the enemy rather than his own man, he is like a traitor. How can he run to help the enemy and leave his own man out there to be captured or killed? Would the enemy be mad if the solider went to his own man rather than him? No. He expects him to take care of his own, and if the soldier comes to the enemy instead, the enemy will have no respect for him because he will also see him as a traitor to his own. Christians running to support a nonChristian cause is not going to make the nonChristians love Christians more.

As for fighting for one side, a soldier fights doesn`t he. So it was an illustrative word. I`m not talking about literally physically fighting. I`m talking about spiritually picking a side and standing by it. This is not the time to be a wishy washy, politically correct Christian. This is the time to stand on God`s Word and stand by our brethern.

 

[Drew]

As an American and a person of the Western part of the world it is embarrassing to see a general in our armed forces apologizing to the Muslim world because one of our citizens burned HIS COPY of their religious book while the Muslim world disrespects every religion in the world and seeks to conquer all.

I suggest that you are not following the gospel path in this manner.

First of all, you are (I hope) a Christian first - a citizen of the Kingdom of God - and an American second. But in any event, you are adopting the world's standards here. We are to be loving, humble, and willing to confess our faults, regardless of what other people do or do not do.

It is God's job to judge the world, it is our job to model Christlike love for our enemies, even if they mistreat us. It is a hard road, but one we are clearly commanded to take.

I suggest that refusing to respond with symbolic violence (burning a Koran) to any claimed aggressions on the part of some who claim Islam as their cause is the most effective way to advance the Kingdom of God.

When we participate in the endless cycle of violence, real or symbolic, we are simply playing the world's game.

 

[Drew]

Free, the scriptures you gave are when evil strikes and we can`t escape, but all through the Bible we are compelled to flee from evil not embrace it. To walk with evil is the mark of a fool according to Proverbs. We need to avoid it, but to avoid it we have to identify it. I think this is what that pastor was trying to do. Talk was not working so he took a bolder action to try and make people see the evil that needs to be avoided.

We are certainly free to challenge the content of any other person's belief structure. But your argument here seems like a stretch. We all know that burning a Koran is a symbolically provocative and symbolically violent action.

It may satisfy some unhealthy psychological need on the part of the person doing the burning, but it is decidedly not an act of "loving the enemy". So, yes, please do criticize the content of belief systems that you believe oppose the gospel. But why choose such a violent, inflammatory, and hurtful mode of doing so?

 

[pjt]

So now we must burn books? Not me!

No, we don`t have to burn books, but we do have to flee from joining hands with evil. I am not going to go burning any korans either, BUT it is not because I fear the retaliation of muslims. It`s because it would be meaningless for me to do. I live in Asia and I have a lot of other things on my plate than islam! Truthfully other than this thread, islam is the last thing on my mind right now. In a way, I suppose I am blessed because I can be thinking of ways to help and support people around me right now rather than having to wave a flag of warning. No one likes a prophet who waves a warning flag, but everyone likes the person who lends a helping hand or gives an encouraging word. However, sometimes the prophet with his unpopular warning flag is a million times more helpful and meaningful than the person giving a drop of support here and there.

 

[Drew]

Jesus didn't come to show us how to incite another religion to violence or utterly disrespect another religion's beliefs. He came, at least in part, so that we could be his ambassadors, the salt and light that this world desperately needs.

I agree. Why can't Christians "get this"? Becoming a Christian should not provide people with "theological justification" to support their acting in precisely the way of acting that Jesus came to overthrow.

The Kingdom of God is not about "going to heaven when you die", or about giving people a "justification" to act out in symbolically violent ways. It is about a whole new set of creative and redeeming principles that have broken into this world under King Jesus.

And one of these is the odd and remarkable principle that we respond to hatred, aggression, and violence with love and kindness. Makes no sense - but that is precisely why it is a revolutionary kingdom.

 

[pjt]

We all know that burning a Koran is a symbolically provocative and symbolically violent action.

I don`t think everyone on this board would agree with your statement. Some would, but not all. Therefore, we could just as easily but incorrectly say "we ALL KNOW that burning the koran is not a violent action, but a statement for Christians and Americans to wake up to the truth of what the koran teaches".

 

[Sam21]

I suggest that you are not following the gospel path in this manner.

First of all, you are (I hope) a Christian first - a citizen of the Kingdom of God - and an American second. But in any event, you are adopting the world's standards here. We are to be loving, humble, and willing to confess our faults, regardless of what other people do or do not do.

It is God's job to judge the world, it is our job to model Christlike love for our enemies, even if they mistreat us. It is a hard road, but one we are clearly commanded to take.

I suggest that refusing to respond with symbolic violence (burning a Koran) to any claimed aggressions on the part of some who claim Islam as their cause is the most effective way to advance the Kingdom of God.

When we participate in the endless cycle of violence, real or symbolic, we are simply playing the world's game.

You are trying to put a square peg into a round hole,if you grow in the Lord you may come to realize that, it just does not work the way you purpose. Jesus NEVER backed down from evil,Jesus never allowed evil to get the upper hand except in the one time when He paid the price for sin on the cross. Our country is demonstrating cowardness in the face of evil aggression and though the man who burned the Koran may have not done the better thing, yet his actions DID expose the cowardly attitude that is in the West concerning Islam.

 

[Drew]

I don`t think everyone on this board would agree with your statement. Some would, but not all. Therefore, we could just as easily but incorrectly say "we ALL KNOW that burning the koran is not a violent action, but a statement for Christians and Americans to wake up to the truth of what the koran teaches".

I doubt it.

History, including recent history, shows flag-burning, or effigy-burning, and now book-burning, are acts of mindless violence. Look at the contexts that invariably surround such acts of "burning" - a madly excited crowd, screaming "Death to 'insert name' here".

Fire is deeply ingrained in the human psyche as a fearful agent of brutal, mindless, total destruction. In fact, it is the ultimate "anti-creational" symbol - burning away God's good creation to smoke and ashes. It is true that fire is also represented in the Bible as an agent of purification, but such uses are, I believe, restricted to God using fire in this way.

There are many ways to express your opposition to the belief system you see embodied in the Koran. Why choose a specific mode of doing this that is so routinely used in contexts where reason and love for enemy has given way to blind rage?

The way to win the "hearts and minds" of those who persecute you is to follow the model Jesus demonstrated on the cross - words of love and forgiveness. God will judge those work against the advancement of His kingdom. We are to be agents of building that kingdom. Burning symbols that are dear to other people, and which those people see as an expression of who they are, is the ultimate rejection of the kingdom of God principles of healing, restoration, love, and forgiveness.

 

[Drew]

You are trying to put a square peg into a round hole,if you grow in the Lord you may come to realize that, it just does not work the way you purpose.

And you are in a position to suggest that I need to "grow in the Lord" because....why? Because I disagree with you?

Jesus NEVER backed down from evil,Jesus never allowed evil to get the upper hand except in the one time when He paid the price for sin on the cross.

I agree that Jesus never backed down from evil. But He most certainly did not follow the path you would have us follow - lashing out in violence, real or symbolic. If you want to bring up the temple action, where Jesus 'acts' in a somewhat violent way, we can talk about that.

Our country is demonstrating cowardness in the face of evil aggression and though the man who burned the Koran may have not done the better thing, yet his actions DID expose the cowardly attitude that is in the West concerning Islam.

What do you mean "our country"? Are you not a citizen of the Kingdom of God first, and an American second?

It is, of course, the long, sad tradition that human beings respond to evil in kind with threats, military actions, and posturing. But this is decidedly not the way of the Kingdom of God.

The best way to respond to evil and provocation is most certainly something other than picking up the very weapons that evil uses and trying to be better at using them. And a Koran-burning is about the most violent symbolic act one could undertake.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason, when did the torah and prophets no longer become part of the Christian Bible? It`s in my Bible and I believe every single word of what is said from Genesis to Revelation. Judism and Christianity go hand in hand.

but to the Jew, jesus wasnt or isnt God and we are liars and stealers of what they have. yup they do say that about the lion of the tribe of judah. what if and i know that their bible has commentaries from various rabbis. these rabbis wont and dont see the God we serve, but they claim and deny the trinity and also the idea of original sin. thus a book of the DEVIL!

in my dialogue with the jewish friend of mine. She is more like the world. jews dont seperate themselves and say that all others are wrong. They will even embrace islam if the muslim doesnt hate them. There are muslims that dont hate isreal. This doesnt mean they dont agree with them. i'm sure you know that the world says all paths lead to God believe by many of the new agers and the world.:yes

 

[Free]

Free, the scriptures you gave are when evil strikes and we can`t escape, but all through the Bible we are compelled to flee from evil not embrace it. To walk with evil is the mark of a fool according to Proverbs. We need to avoid it, but to avoid it we have to identify it. I think this is what that pastor was trying to do. Talk was not working so he took a bolder action to try and make people see the evil that needs to be avoided. On the other hand, there are times evil just jumps on us and we can`t avoid it. When that happens, God tells us how to deal with it and that is where the scriptures you quoted apply. At those times we can`t let our hearts be overcome with hate and cursings, but we have to protect our hearts by forgiving and being kind and loving even in the face of evil.

While that is obviously one interpretation of those passages, clearly there is more to them than that. Jesus and Paul are both teaching for the need of a fundamental shift in the way we are to view others who oppose us, physically or otherwise. Again, we are to be salt and light; we are to be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone; we are to treat others as we want to be treated. We are to be this way and do these things regardless of how we and other believers are being treated.

As for fighting for one side, a soldier fights doesn`t he. So it was an illustrative word. I`m not talking about literally physically fighting. I`m talking about spiritually picking a side and standing by it. This is not the time to be a wishy washy, politically correct Christian. This is the time to stand on God`s Word and stand by our brethern.

I haven't noticed anyone in here being wishy washy. If you are referring to Obama, that's the way he is with everything. Should he have spoken out about the Quran burning? Yes. Should he speak out against the treatment of Christians abroad? Yes. Will he? Maybe, maybe not, but it shouldn't surprise us or anger us if he doesn't.

As for me, I will not stand by any Christian who chooses to so clearly go against biblical principals and the gospel and burn another religion's holy book.

I agree. Why can't Christians "get this"? Becoming a Christian should not provide people with "theological justification" to support their acting in precisely the way of acting that Jesus came to overthrow.

The Kingdom of God is not about "going to heaven when you die", or about giving people a "justification" to act out in symbolically violent ways. It is about a whole new set of creative and redeeming principles that have broken into this world under King Jesus.

And one of these is the odd and remarkable principle that we respond to hatred, aggression, and violence with love and kindness. Makes no sense - but that is precisely why it is a revolutionary kingdom.

Agreed. It's about a new way of thinking, of being, that goes directly against the grain of what seems to come naturally to the world.

 

[jasoncran]

I wonder how many MUSLIM American soldiers abroad and in country were offended as well. Surely there are MUSLIMS in the armed forces as i know of the muslim chaplains and chapel services. We had them in country for the muslim service members. I'm sure they were bothered by this. But hey who cares.