Obama decries Quran-burning, violent responses

[pjt]

Thank you for the links Hitch. In one of the links someone said "Again, while I don't approve of burning Korans, I find appeasement of Muslims to be culturally suicidal. And we either take a stand now, and insist that Muslims assimilate into our culture and our way of life, or we wait until its too late and we end up under their faith and culture. " I think that sums it up. Americans more and more are giving up our own rights to appease muslims.

Sorry, I`m not sure if it was Hitch or Jason that made this point but I think it is significant. If there has been any inciting, really the one that is guilty is the media. If it were not for the media, I never would have known that this pastor burned a koran. It is the media that has stirred the pot and sensationalized the story. It is the media that reported this to the muslims all the way across the world. If the media had ignored the story, probably no one would have been killed.

As for burning Bibles, I`m not sure of the time line. Was that before or after the pastor threatened to burn a koran? I am just wondering if this is a retaliation tactic from Obama? Anyway, it sickens me that the Bible is called trash and burned, but the President actually used his power as President and his legal knowledge to try and seek a way to prosecute the pastor the first time he threatened to burn korans. Of course, all Obama could come up with was maybe some city ordinance with fires. Constitutually and legally the man was free to burn his own property. There was absolutely nothing Obama could do, but he did try. Yet, where is his outrage at burning a Christian Holy Book? Why is he not looking to denounce these people and see if there is a way to prosecute them?

If Christians owning a Bible and sharing their faith becomes "a threat to national security", do others not see the problem with this? I say being in Afghanistan is a much bigger threat to national security so why do we stay? It is okay to have our own men killed there but it is not okay to distribute Bibles. Bibles are more of a threat? Stories like this are very revealing to the situation at hand, and makes this pastor`s message even more important and relevant. He had a point to make. Christian liberties are at stake because of islam.

Finally, Hitch is right. This pastor was not going into muslim territory provoking muslims. He was on US soil, a predominantly Christian nation with a Christian heritage and culture. He did not even go to a muslim neighborhood or mosque. He stayed at his church so this message was clearly not to muslims. He was not talking to muslims. He was in a free country that protects freedom of speech and the right to protest. As for being a Christian, he was delivering a Christian message to not meddle with other gods or religions. But as Christians we are getting so politically correct we don`t want to hurt any other religions feelings so we embrace them all. This is Biblically wrong.

 

[pjt]

I just told my husband what the Pentagon did with the Bibles and his answer impressed me. He simply said, "God will deal with them". I thought "that is true". As Christians, we leave vengence in the hands of God and trust in His divine justice. But muslims take vengence in their own hands brutally slaughtering anyone in sight regardless of whether they are innocent or guilty. They just blindly lash out in violence. I liked my husband`s answer and I believe it is true, "God will deal with them" (meaning the Pentagon and all who are responsible for burning the Bibles).

 

[jasoncran]

Thank you for the links Hitch. In one of the links someone said "Again, while I don't approve of burning Korans, I find appeasement of Muslims to be culturally suicidal. And we either take a stand now, and insist that Muslims assimilate into our culture and our way of life, or we wait until its too late and we end up under their faith and culture. " I think that sums it up. Americans more and more are giving up our own rights to appease muslims.

Sorry, I`m not sure if it was Hitch or Jason that made this point but I think it is significant. If there has been any inciting, really the one that is guilty is the media. If it were not for the media, I never would have known that this pastor burned a koran. It is the media that has stirred the pot and sensationalized the story. It is the media that reported this to the muslims all the way across the world. If the media had ignored the story, probably no one would have been killed.

As for burning Bibles, I`m not sure of the time line. Was that before or after the pastor threatened to burn a koran? I am just wondering if this is a retaliation tactic from Obama? Anyway, it sickens me that the Bible is called trash and burned, but the President actually used his power as President and his legal knowledge to try and seek a way to prosecute the pastor the first time he threatened to burn korans. Of course, all Obama could come up with was maybe some city ordinance with fires. Constitutually and legally the man was free to burn his own property. There was absolutely nothing Obama could do, but he did try. Yet, where is his outrage at burning a Christian Holy Book? Why is he not looking to denounce these people and see if there is a way to prosecute them?

If Christians owning a Bible and sharing their faith becomes "a threat to national security", do others not see the problem with this? I say being in Afghanistan is a much bigger threat to national security so why do we stay? It is okay to have our own men killed there but it is not okay to distribute Bibles. Bibles are more of a threat? Stories like this are very revealing to the situation at hand, and makes this pastor`s message even more important and relevant. He had a point to make. Christian liberties are at stake because of islam.

Finally, Hitch is right. This pastor was not going into muslim territory provoking muslims. He was on US soil, a predominantly Christian nation with a Christian heritage and culture. He did not even go to a muslim neighborhood or mosque. He stayed at his church so this message was clearly not to muslims. He was not talking to muslims. He was in a free country that protects freedom of speech and the right to protest. As for being a Christian, he was delivering a Christian message to not meddle with other gods or religions. But as Christians we are getting so politically correct we don`t want to hurt any other religions feelings so we embrace them all. This is Biblically wrong.

sigh, the burning of the bibles wasnt done to just them. if take this laptop and trash IT and I WAS IN BAGRAM AFB. IT WOULD BE BURNED AS THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY DISPOSE OF TRASH.

I MAY HAVE HEALTH ISSUES FOR BEING AROUND BURN PITS.we killed dogs, and tossed them while still warm in the pile of burn pits. do i like that they did that to the bibles. NOOOOOO, but to clarify the army merely tossed them. they have that legal rights, its no different if we hand the sinner some biblical literature and he or she tosses it in the trash. and here in florida. theres a town that burns trash to power the county!

let me ask in another thread on should it be illegal to burn any holy book.and that burning the bible happened under BUSH not obama.

 

[jasoncran]

Of course not,its like the theLords said the other night, those muslims were just hanging out thinking of ways to be nice to other folks. Then point then,the military burned bibles and there were no resulting riots/murders is granted, and all your 'reasons' have no effect on that fact' Thats nice but is has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

really so if any soldier dies from this death that man isnt culpable. so if go to the gay bar and call them all hate words. am i not acting in hate. [/quote] Perhaps you are unaware, the preacher was working the borders of the United States Take them to a gay bar .Then you need to adopt their laws, you know they might be incited to volence otherwise.

Get to it, and stop pushing this Christian stuff they might hear about it on CNN, and it will be your fault is they murder some one.[/QUOTE]
you are hoot hitch. ever been to an islamic country? what nope. wait a minute have you ever ate with them? wonder why they hate us. and treated them with respect. and get this, give them any biblical literure if they asked. yup i did. and they didnt riot!

they would ask and talk to me about america and politics. i told them what i believed and why.again this is why i dont buy the media on this as i know how it goes over there cause i have been there. the media as usual is manupalating you(not me) to act. currently my fellows troops are here in america fresh off the tour and theres some christians that went to bagram to run the dentation facilities there.

now then dont assume that i kow tow to islam. i have been shot at and watched men die from their actions. i prefer wisdom.

 

[pjt]

sigh, the burning of the bibles wasnt done to just them. if take this laptop and trash IT and I WAS IN BAGRAM AFB. IT WOULD BE BURNED AS THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY DISPOSE OF TRASH.

I MAY HAVE HEALTH ISSUES FOR BEING AROUND BURN PITS.we killed dogs, and tossed them while still warm in the pile of burn pits. do i like that they did that to the bibles. NOOOOOO, but to clarify the army merely tossed them. they have that legal rights, its no different if we hand the sinner some biblical literature and he or she tosses it in the trash. and here in florida. theres a town that burns trash to power the county!

UOTE]

So by American standards now a Bible is simply trash that can be tossed with dead rotting dog carcasses without even a second thought. But a koran is so holy that even the President of US has to get involved and make a world wide denouncement of a single koran being burned, but burning Bibles is just another day at work. And it is okay because the army has the "legal right", but when a citizen exersizes his legal right to burn a koran the government condemns him. Do you not see something VERY wrong and contradictory with that picture?

 

[Drew]

In one of the links someone said "Again, while I don't approve of burning Korans, I find appeasement of Muslims to be culturally suicidal. And we either take a stand now, and insist that Muslims assimilate into our culture and our way of life, or we wait until its too late and we end up under their faith and culture. " I think that sums it up. Americans more and more are giving up our own rights to appease muslims.

There is a huge difference between "appeasing" Muslims and engaging in a deliberately provocative act of symbolic violence by burning a symbol that is dear to them.

If the media had ignored the story, probably no one would have been killed.

I agree.

Constitutually and legally the man was free to burn his own property.

Maybe so, but what is 'legal' is not necessarily what is fundamentally right.

Yet, where is his outrage at burning a Christian Holy Book? Why is he not looking to denounce these people and see if there is a way to prosecute them?

If there are cases of Americans burning Bibles, then I would agree that Mr. Obama should be equally outraged. Are there such cases?

Finally, Hitch is right. This pastor was not going into muslim territory provoking muslims. He was on US soil, a predominantly Christian nation with a Christian heritage and culture. He did not even go to a muslim neighborhood or mosque. He stayed at his church so this message was clearly not to muslims.

Please - the guy is not an idiot. This "pastor" knew full well that his actions would be covered by the media and that Muslims around the world would find out about it.

He was indeed provoking Muslims and I am convinced he knew this all too well.

He was in a free country that protects freedom of speech and the right to protest.

Again, what is 'legal' is not necessarily what should be legal. I would argue that burning a book is not actually an act of speech, it is more of an act of hate. There is a huge difference between getting up and explaining what he things is "wrong" with Islam and burning the Koran.

 

[Drew]

But muslims take vengence in their own hands brutally slaughtering anyone in sight regardless of whether they are innocent or guilty.

Oh my. An unfortunate, deeply hurtful, untrue, and very harmful generalization.

You are, of course, mistaken in this statement, and I can only hope that yours is a minority position in the church.

Yes, some people do terrible things in the name of Islam. But many more do not. So I think what you say here really does great harm.

 

[jasoncran]

sigh, the burning of the bibles wasnt done to just them. if take this laptop and trash IT and I WAS IN BAGRAM AFB. IT WOULD BE BURNED AS THAT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY DISPOSE OF TRASH.

I MAY HAVE HEALTH ISSUES FOR BEING AROUND BURN PITS.we killed dogs, and tossed them while still warm in the pile of burn pits. do i like that they did that to the bibles. NOOOOOO, but to clarify the army merely tossed them. they have that legal rights, its no different if we hand the sinner some biblical literature and he or she tosses it in the trash. and here in florida. theres a town that burns trash to power the county!

UOTE]

So by American standards now a Bible is simply trash that can be tossed with dead rotting dog carcasses without even a second thought. But a koran is so holy that even the President of US has to get involved and make a world wide denouncement of a single koran being burned, but burning Bibles is just another day at work. And it is okay because the army has the "legal right", but when a citizen exersizes his legal right to burn a koran the government condemns him. Do you not see something VERY wrong and contradictory with that picture?

its been against the law to burn trash in florida, be it dogs,cats and and what not. one cant burn save fire pits for cooking or camping, burning trash has been illegal since the mid 80s, the reason is the dangers of forest fires. that law could be used. the question for you is did the pastor call the media to tell them that he was burning the quran.

lets see yup he did.
Florida pastor Terry Jones’s Koran burning has far-reaching effect - The Washington Post

let me ask you this pjt. he was the same person before in ganesville that was threatening to do it. so he burned the quran,. why not burn playboys, harry potter, any other occult book? are these not as demonic? its one thing to post online why you think islam is wrong and compare the quran and the verses in the bible. if that was an inciteful thing that this very site would be on their hate list as we have had muslims come here before.

if i burned the quran in my yard and never told the media or posted it on the net. how would the media know?

 

[jasoncran]

pjt back to burning jewish tanakh. prophets. and the torah.

in case the audience doesnt know, the star of david wasnt around when king david was king at all nor even in the time of christ. some sects of jews dont accept that symbol as its pagan to them.

is kabalism not a pagan thing and something a christian ought not to do.

The Star of David in Judaism

now then lets say for discussion i want to reach my kin in isreal, i send them a video of the star of david on fire in the back ground and then me tossing the talmud in the fire, the tanakh etc (with rabbis commentaries) and then in hebrew tell them to repent or hell will be there home.and then tell them about the lord and his gospel and tell them to come to america and attend the local messsianic temple.

how would they react? ohh i know, a protest, peaceful that is but i would be disowned by my dad and grandma and all cranmans for that. yet oddly in posts and rants on christ on fb. no cranman on fb has removed me as friend. they know where i stand and what i believe.

only one cranman did and that was my fault and nothing to do with the gospel.

 

[Sam21]

The real point is being missed, Islam shows no respect for any other religion on earth, yet they are demanding incredible respect for their religion. It is like a playground bully saying lewd things about the families of every kid in the playground but demanding severe punishment for anyone who says anything about his family. If you are afraid of the big bad bully then do as he requires you to, however others are not afraid and will not allow themselves to be bullied.

 

[jasoncran]

The real point is being missed, Islam shows no respect for any other religion on earth, yet they are demanding incredible respect for their religion. It is like a playground bully saying lewd things about the families of every kid in the playground but demanding severe punishment for anyone who says anything about his family. If you are afraid of the big bad bully then do as he requires you to, however others are not afraid and will not allow themselves to be bullied.

of course some in islam dont but that doesnt mean we as drew says be the bully back too. think about it if i slapped the lord in person would he slap me back?

agian you need to really read what i posted on what i shared with muslims in country where they could have killed me. i worked with them and dont think they didnt have chances to take me. i didnt carry my weapon with me all the time as i wasnt outside of the base, the odds were in their favor 5 to one.and i know armed soldiers that were killed by the hajis they trained in the ana. and it had to do with them being insulted by that soldier.

 

[Sam21]

of course some in islam dont but that doesnt mean we as drew says be the bully back too. think about it if i slapped the lord in person would he slap me back?

agian you need to really read what i posted on what i shared with muslims in country where they could have killed me. i worked with them and dont think they didnt have chances to take me. i didnt carry my weapon with me all the time as i wasnt outside of the base, the odds were in their favor 5 to one.and i know armed soldiers that were killed by the hajis they trained in the ana. and it had to do with them being insulted by that soldier.

I am not saying that every person that is a muslim will kill a non muslim on sight, that is silly. Standing up to a bully is not being a bully, read the NT, the big religious folks were trying to bully Jesus all the time, He stood up to them and did not allow it, but that did not make Him a bully.

 

[Free]

Sorry, I`m not sure if it was Hitch or Jason that made this point but I think it is significant. If there has been any inciting, really the one that is guilty is the media. If it were not for the media, I never would have known that this pastor burned a koran. It is the media that has stirred the pot and sensationalized the story. It is the media that reported this to the muslims all the way across the world. If the media had ignored the story, probably no one would have been killed.

That may be true but with the number of cameras, cell phones, and media players floating around these days, it would have made youtube sooner or later. Don't blame the media for sensationalizing something that a Christian pastor had no business doing in the first place.

Finally, Hitch is right. This pastor was not going into muslim territory provoking muslims. He was on US soil, a predominantly Christian nation with a Christian heritage and culture. He did not even go to a muslim neighborhood or mosque. He stayed at his church so this message was clearly not to muslims. He was not talking to muslims. He was in a free country that protects freedom of speech and the right to protest. As for being a Christian, he was delivering a Christian message to not meddle with other gods or religions. But as Christians we are getting so politically correct we don`t want to hurt any other religions feelings so we embrace them all. This is Biblically wrong.

That the pastor didn't go into Muslim territory, and the fact he put it off once prior, only serves to prove that he was fearful because he knew what kind of response he would get. He knew what he was doing and he knew the media would be all over it, which shows that he deliberately provoked Muslims everywhere. That is biblically wrong.

There are certainly far superior ways to deliver a message to Christians. First and foremost it ought to be done in love and not as a deliberate attempt to provoke another religion to anger. It is telling that none has yet addressed the passages I have provided.

The real point is being missed, Islam shows no respect for any other religion on earth, yet they are demanding incredible respect for their religion.

The real point is that as Christians we are called to be salt and light, to live in an utterly different way than the world, to do things so radically differently that the world will see the power and love of God and so want to be reconciled to Him. Burning another religions holy book does the complete opposite. It is precisely how the world would respond.

 

[Hitch]

That may be true but with the number of cameras, cell phones, and media players floating around these days, it would have made youtube sooner or later. Don't blame the media for sensationalizing something that a Christian pastor had no business doing in the first place.

There could be cameras at IHOP step away from the bacon you dont want to enrage Yuseph, Canada needs to enact laws banning pork tonight. Further I demand in the name of protecting the innocent Muslims all over the world that Canada takes steps to make certain no women appear in public with out the burka, lest Canada share the blood guilt of inciting mobs.

And this has to go right now;
'''
'God keep our land glorious and free!

Dont pretend you dont know Muslims see this as blasphemy, and are liable to riot if this gets on YouTube.

You better hide all those churches too. Someone might take a cell phone picture nd it might caase a muslim to get angry. And Free knows how wrong that is.

One more thing,, you better get Canada to enact a nation wide Saturday sabbath because......

That the pastor didn't go into Muslim territory, and the fact he put it off once prior, only serves to prove that he was fearful because he knew what kind of response he would get. He knew what he was doing and he knew the media would be all over it, which shows that he deliberately provoked Muslims everywhere. That is biblically wrong.

Doubtless Dave gently persuaded 100 Philistines to surrender their foreskins.

There are certainly far superior ways to deliver a message to Christians. First and foremost it ought to be done in love and not as a deliberate attempt to provoke another religion to anger. It is telling that none has yet addressed the passages I have provided.



The real point is that as Christians we are called to be salt and light, to live in an utterly different way than the world, to do things so radically differently that the world will see the power and love of God and so want to be reconciled to Him. Burning another religions holy book does the complete opposite. It is precisely how the world would respond.

Actually history shows that antisemites are usually placated.

 

[jasoncran]

i agree with free's statement. first off the pastor broke the florida law on burning trash. he knows that illegal and been illegal since the mid 80's its funny why didnt he do this during the bush days. surely if islam was such a menace, wouldnt that be the time do it? right after 9-11 or the first yr anniversary of it?

let me ask my fellow americans. whom are a we at war with islam or radical islam?

bush made it clear that is was the later, for if he didnt pakistan and turkey and quatar all muslim republics wouldnt have cooperated with us. i also have seen islamic countries BUILDING mosques in the country of afghanistan, in a gesture of peace.

also we have paid for goats and gave them to local populace during ramadan as a gesture of Good will. i took part in that.Did we americans pray and partake in ramadan, nope. Just said here are some goats that you may have to eat in your feasts on us.

now then which of you fellow brave men who havent been to war would do this. where i was at the locals had more arms then we did at times as they had rpgs and also ak-47's. would you then be so brave to burn that quran?

 

[pjt]

There is a huge difference between "appeasing" Muslims and engaging in a deliberately provocative act of symbolic violence by burning a symbol that is dear to them.

I agree.

Maybe so, but what is 'legal' is not necessarily what is fundamentally right.

If there are cases of Americans burning Bibles, then I would agree that Mr. Obama should be equally outraged. Are there such cases?

Please - the guy is not an idiot. This "pastor" knew full well that his actions would be covered by the media and that Muslims around the world would find out about it.

He was indeed provoking Muslims and I am convinced he knew this all too well.

Again, what is 'legal' is not necessarily what should be legal. I would argue that burning a book is not actually an act of speech, it is more of an act of hate. There is a huge difference between getting up and explaining what he things is "wrong" with Islam and burning the Koran.

Drew, I`m not ignoring yours or anyone else`s comments but any other comments I make from this point on will just be going in circles repeating all I said before. I have nothing more to add other than I agree with both of Sam`s last replies.

 

[Drew]

The real point is being missed, Islam shows no respect for any other religion on earth, yet they are demanding incredible respect for their religion. It is like a playground bully saying lewd things about the families of every kid in the playground but demanding severe punishment for anyone who says anything about his family. If you are afraid of the big bad bully then do as he requires you to, however others are not afraid and will not allow themselves to be bullied.

I suggest that this a generalization that is simply not grounded in fact. Yes, there are some who claim the title "Muslim" and act as you suggest. But I would bet that the overwhelming majority of Muslims "respect" other religions.

Do you have any real evidence to support this generalization of yours?

 

[Drew]

There could be cameras at IHOP step away from the bacon you dont want to enrage Yuseph, Canada needs to enact laws banning pork tonight. Further I demand in the name of protecting the innocent Muslims all over the world that Canada takes steps to make certain no women appear in public with out the burka, lest Canada share the blood guilt of inciting mobs.

This is not the proper analogy. The Koran will be seen by Muslims as a symbol of who they are - just a flag represents real people. Pork does not "stand for" Muslims, and neither do burkas. Yes, it may offend Muslims when we eat pork and when women wear revealing clothing. But there is a fundamental difference between engaging in some activity that a Muslim might disapprove of, on the one hand, and burning a symbol that represents Islam, on the other.

I do not think we should stop eating pork in order to appease Muslims, or anyone else. And I do not think women should wear burkas to appease Muslims. But if someone were to deliberately film themselves eating pork in order to be seen as such by Muslims, I would suggest that this is immoral. And this is clearly what the "pastor" was doing - engaging in action deliberately contrived to be hurtful, and let's not pretend otherwise. He (and others) can claim the Koran-burning was an act of free speech intended to express disagreement with the values of Islam. However, this is simply not a believable claim - there many other ways a person can express disagreement with Islamic ideas than burning the very symbol of Islamic identity.

 

[Oats]

In their Iron Age, primative, desert dwelling, sheep hearder mindset, . . . it probably did.

and your mindset is perfect?

 

[Oats]

same goes to you

lets not judge people, you would be outraged if I burned down your house because we didn't believe the same things...

The Muslims worship a false god, but they still have their rights to be loved