Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Iconoclast]

Everytime a Reformed person calls the opposition an uncomplimentary name, they show they don’t believe it at all. Everytime a reformed believer gets angry at anyone else, they show they don’t believe it all. The reason is they show that at that moment of irritation they abandon completely the theology that God is sovereignly behind everything everyone does and are angry at the PERSON CHOOSING TO DO THAT WHICH THEY DON’T LIKE. God was NOT sovereign in those moments or they’d be angry at God or not angry at all.

This post reminds of Satan speaking to Jesus in Lk.4. He twisted truth and made it sound like he had it figured it out.

 

[Iconoclast]

Some have been poorly instructed.

There are men who claim to be called to the Ministry and yet oppose historic truth and teach people that the truth is actually error.
The people do not even know what the issues are.
many of them look online but get fooled by others who do not know what is truth.
The result are caricatures and strawmen.
They do not know it, so they are proud of their lack of knowledge.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This post reminds of Satan speaking to Jesus in Lk.4. He twisted truth and made it sound like he had it figured it out.

The usual Calvinist personal insult, as I said is so very common when faced with an argument that they cannot refute. (There are some exceptional calvinists who don’t.) Reformed theology does not match real life. And the very inability of those who confess it being totally unable to chalk unwanted verbal responses here as “God’s Sovereign control over everything” but instead sink to personally insulting the other is evidence of this. Calvinists cannot actually live out the theology they espouse. They still get angry at man and not the God whom they say sovereignly controls the man (or the emotions of the man.)

God did not sovereignly control your emotions or response, I guarantee it.

 

[Iconoclast]

The usual Calvinist personal insult, as I said is so very common when faced with an argument that they cannot refute. (There are some exceptional calvinists who don’t.) Reformed theology does not match real life. And the very inability of those who confess it being totally unable to chalk unwanted verbal responses here as “God’s Sovereign control over everything” but instead sink to personally insulting the other is evidence of this. Calvinists cannot actually live out the theology they espouse. They still get angry at man and not the God whom they say sovereignly controls the man (or the emotions of the man.)

God did not sovereignly control your emotions or response, I guarantee it.

You snuck another seedy post in when I was not looking. We got it.
There is nothing edifying in your attack posts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You snuck another seedy post in when I was not looking. We got it.
There is nothing edifying in your attack posts.

Let’s go on ignore.

 

[GodsGrace]

The usual Calvinist personal insult, as I said is so very common when faced with an argument that they cannot refute. (There are some exceptional calvinists who don’t.) Reformed theology does not match real life. And the very inability of those who confess it being totally unable to chalk unwanted verbal responses here as “God’s Sovereign control over everything” but instead sink to personally insulting the other is evidence of this. Calvinists cannot actually live out the theology they espouse. They still get angry at man and not the God whom they say sovereignly controls the man (or the emotions of the man.)

God did not sovereignly control your emotions or response, I guarantee it.

AMBASSADOR HAT ON

TOS RULES ARE BEING BROKEN.
1.1
1.3
1.4

PLEASE ADDRESS THE TOPIC AND NOT THE PERSON.

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY ON THIS THREAD.
USE TALKING WITH STAFF FORUM IF NECESSARY.

 

[GodsGrace]

You snuck another seedy post in when I was not looking. We got it.
There is nothing edifying in your attack posts.

AMBASSADOR HAT ON

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO PERSON'S PERSONAL REMARKS. KEEP TO TOPIC.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not everyone really believes it.

We all accept God's sovereignty and control the universe He created.

We just don't agree that God decreed and predestinated everything, even the particles moving in the air.

We don't agree that God either:
1. Never gave us free will and predestined Adam to sin ....
Or
2. Removed man's free will after the fall.

 

[GodsGrace]

Some offer emotional rather than biblical answers.

Have you ever talked to a person who says... I could not worship a god who sends people to hell?
In the same way, those who go to emotions rather than scriptures cannot piece the puzzle pieces together because of similar emotional ideas that are just plain wrong.
To suggest God is not just , or God cannot elect who he wants is foolish.

This is not an emotional answer Iconoclast.
It's an answer based on logic.
This is also how I feel regarding reformed theology.

I absolutely could not worship a God that creates humans for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal torment.

I know you believe in predestination....and I'm using the word the way YOU explained it to me so there could be no misunderstanding.

Predestine means to save some persons and to pass over others, thus not saving them.
AND FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

Yes, in caps because that is a very important component of the unjust manner in which, in your theology, God sends persons to hell.

If God is PASSING OVER some - those are going to hell.

So we're dealing with double predestination.

It's indeed a mystery to me as to why you cannot see this...
it's simple logic.

This makes God be unjust and we know from scripture that we have a JUST God.
Would you trust an unjust police officer?
An unjust teacher?
I'm sure you wouldn't.

All the more for Almighty God.
The CREATOR of justice.

 

[Niblo]

I absolutely could not worship a God that creates humans for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal torment.

Agreed. We both know that such a being does not exist....except in the imagination of certain folk

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed. We both know that such a being does not exist....except in the imagination of certain folk

Right.
The bible is full of passages that tell of a God that is loving, merciful and just.

The reformed present us with a God that has none of these qualities, but exactly the opposite.

 

[Niblo]

Right.
The bible is full of passages that tell of a God that is loving, merciful and just.

The reformed present us with a God that has none of these qualities, but exactly the opposite.

Exactly.

 

[Iconoclast]

We all accept God's sovereignty and control the universe He created.

If you have a God who has not ordained whatsoever comes to pass, that is a defective understanding of God as he has revealed himself, so no...you do not believe in the absoluteness of the Sovereignty of God. What you describe is the God of the deist who says yes, God created things, like a clock maker makes a clock, but winds it up and let's it run all by itself. Not so in scripture. hundreds os scriptures have to be ignored or explained away for that to be so.

We just don't agree that God decreed and predestinated everything, even the particles moving in the air.

No we do not agree at all. We are finally getting to the truth. That is why this thread gets into it and makes it quite clear. Amos 3
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

We don't agree that God either:
1. Never gave us free will and predestined Adam to sin ....
Or
2. Removed man's free will after the fall.

Or that free will does not exist except in man made philosphy.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is not an emotional answer Iconoclast.

Hello W...I believe it is for sure.

It's an answer based on logic.

My answers have been based on revealed truth, Scripture.

This is also how I feel regarding reformed theology.

Yes...how you feel, I would suggest an emotional answer is indicated.

I absolutely could not worship a God that creates humans for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal torment.

Emotional statement. It is not a multiple-choice question. There is one true and living God. You do not get to create a God in your image and likeness.

I know you believe in predestination....and I'm using the word the way YOU explained it to me so there could be no misunderstanding.

I and the whole Historic confessional churches believe what is revealed in scripture over it. Others resist these truths which are of great comfort to saints.

Predestine means to save some persons and to pass over others, thus not saving them.

Those elected by God are given to the Son, by the Father. That is clearly the biblical teaching.
Others are passed by to do what they will to do...remain in sin which they desire.

AND FOR NO REASON AT ALL

To say that a perfect omniscient God does anything for"no reason at all" is another emotional protest against the God revealed in scripture. Even if you do not agree yet, you should refrain from such statements.

.

Yes, in caps because that is a very important component of the unjust manner in which, in your theology, God sends persons to hell.

Yes I understand you are emotional on this. We should have some passion about truth. I do not get offened by large or small fonts

If God is PASSING OVER some - those are going to hell

yes....multitudes die in Adam. They get punished justly for their sin and rebellion. A Holy God punishes all sin.

So we're dealing with double predestination.

you might be...I am an infralapsarian, , not a supralapsarian. But I will say this,whatever God has ordained will be right,Ge.18:25. I have no trouble with it.

It's indeed a mystery to me as to why you cannot see this...
it's simple logic.

I use scripture...ALL OF IT.... The verses on God's love in Christ, The verses on God's hatred of sin, heaven, hell.
All scripture. I do not apply verses for the believer, with those
of the unbeliever. The bible is a double edged sword.

This makes God be unjust and we know from scripture that we have a JUST God.

because you cannot fit the wrath of God into reality, does not negate that wrath.
I never would suggest God is unjust for punishing sin. I do not expect Him to do anything less.
God has punished sin over and over in scripture...the flood of the world of the ungodly, Sodom and Gommorah etc

Would you trust an unjust police officer?
An unjust teacher?
I'm sure you wouldn't.

All the more for Almighty God.
The CREATOR of justice.

You have to deal with the reality of this God; 1sam15;
15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not;
but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
This is the God of Jn3:16...I understand and can explain both verses ,can you??? God said smite them. men...women..infant...He is holy and Just, can you say the same

Agreed. We both know that such a being does not exist....except in the imagination of certain folk

Hello my Friend, we will all meet Him soon, he Exists as described in scripture, not in an imaginary way, but in full Glory. look at what i posted above, can you agree???

 

[Iconoclast]

Right.
The bible is full of passages that tell of a God that is loving, merciful and just.

The reformed present us with a God that has none of these qualities, but exactly the opposite.

No, not true. We just believe both sides of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is not an emotional answer Iconoclast.

Hello W...I believe it is for sure.

It's an answer based on logic.

My answers have been based on revealed truth, Scripture.

This is also how I feel regarding reformed theology.

Yes...how you feel, I would suggest an emotional answer is indicated.

I absolutely could not worship a God that creates humans for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal torment.

Emotional statement. It is not a multiple-choice question. There is one true and living God. You do not get to create a God in your image and likeness.

I know you believe in predestination....and I'm using the word the way YOU explained it to me so there could be no misunderstanding.

I and the whole Historic confessional churches believe what is revealed in scripture over it. Others resist these truths which are of great comfort to saints.

Predestine means to save some persons and to pass over others, thus not saving them.

Those elected by God are given to the Son, by the Father. That is clearly the biblical teaching.
Others are passed by to do what they will to do...remain in sin which they desire.

AND FOR NO REASON AT ALL

To say that a perfect omniscient God does anything for"no reason at all" is another emotional protest against the God revealed in scripture. Even if you do not agree yet, you should refrain from such statements.

.

Yes, in caps because that is a very important component of the unjust manner in which, in your theology, God sends persons to hell.

Yes, I understand you are emotional about this. We should have some passion for truth. I do not get offended by large or small fonts

 

[GodsGrace]

If you have a God who has not ordained whatsoever comes to pass, that is a defective understanding of God as he has revealed himself, so no...you do not believe in the absoluteness of the Sovereignty of God.

That's because you have a different meaning for the word SOVEREIGNTY.


Sovereignty [N]
of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure.
source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sovereignty/
****************************************************
The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question. Often, the concept of divine sovereignty is oversimplified. We tend to assume that, if God is not directly, overtly, purposefully driving some event, then He is somehow not sovereign. The cartoon version of sovereignty depicts a God who must do anything that He can do, or else He is not truly sovereign.

Of course, such a cartoonish view of God’s sovereignty is logically false. If a man were to put an ant in a bowl, the “sovereignty” of the man over the ant is not in doubt. The ant may try to crawl out, and the man may not want this to happen. But the man is not forced to crush the ant, drown it, or pick it up. The man, for reasons of his own, may choose to let the ant crawl away, but the man is still in control. There is a difference between allowing the ant to leave the bowl and helplessly watching as it escapes. The cartoon version of God’s sovereignty implies that, if the man is not actively holding the ant inside the bowl, then he must be unable to keep it in there at all.
source: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-is-sovereign.html
**************************************************************

1130 God, sovereignty of​

The fact that God is free and able to do all that he wills; that he reigns over all creation and that his will is the final cause of all things. This is often expressed in the language of kingship.
source: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/1130-God-sovereignty

​

**************************************************************
God can do anything He wants to do.
He is all powerful and reigns in whatever He so wishes to do so.
But read all of the above...
Where does it state that we must NOT have free will or God will not be sovereign.
It is YOUR God that fears man's free will and so does not give to man free will, according to reformed theology.
The God expressed in the bible has no fear of giving man free will.

Men are asked constantly in the OT and NT to make a choice.
A choice requires free will.
Joshua 24:15
CHOOSE this day whom you will serve.
Isaiah 1:19
IF you are WILLING and obedient, you will eat the good of the land.

Daniel 1:18
Daniel proposed in his heart that he would not defile himself.
God begged the people of the OT to obey Him.
Did He not have the sovereignty and power to make them obey?

Jeremiah 44:4-6
3because of their wickedness which they committed so as to provoke Me to anger by continuing to burn sacrifices and to serve other gods whom they had not known, neither they, you, nor your fathers.
4‘Yet I sent you all My servants the prophets, again and again, saying, “Oh, do not do this abominable thing which I hate.”
5‘But they did not listen or incline their ears to turn from their wickedness, so as not to burn sacrifices to other gods.
6‘Therefore My wrath and My anger were poured out ...


Seems from the above that God decreed what these sinful men would do,
but when they did it, He became angry with them and His wrath was poured out.

Didn't God know that HE had decreed the wickedness they would do?
Israel did what they freely wanted to do.

No logic Iconoclast.

What you describe is the God of the deist who says yes, God created things, like a clock maker makes a clock, but winds it up and let's it run all by itself. Not so in scripture. hundreds os scriptures have to be ignored or explained away for that to be so.

A deist God would not have sent Jesus to die for us.

No we do not agree at all. We are finally getting to the truth. That is why this thread gets into it and makes it quite clear. Amos 3
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Or that free will does not exist except in man made philosphy.

Come let us reason together. Isaiah 1:18
How does a person reason with God IF God has already decreed what that person is going to believe??
Again, no logic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello W...I believe it is for sure.

My answers have been based on revealed truth, Scripture.

So have mine.
Why is your truth different from every other denomination?

Yes...how you feel, I would suggest an emotional answer is indicated.

Oh for goodness sakes I....
I FEEL means I THINK.
It has nothing to do with feelings.
It's English....
I FEEL WE SHOULD BUY A NEW HOUSE.
How is that a feeling?
Please be intellectually honest.

Emotional statement. It is not a multiple-choice question. There is one true and living God. You do not get to create a God in your image and likeness.

Only problem is:
It might be YOUR theology that is creating a God in your image and likeness.
Maybe WE are not loving enough and so we project onto God.
Maybe WE are not merciful enough and so we project onto God.
Maybe WE are not just and so we project onto God.

You've never explained how God could be loving and send billions of persons to hell FOR NO REASON.
You've never explained how God could be merciful and yet not save billions who might WISH TO BE SAVED.
You've never explained how God sending billions to hell FOR NO REASON is a just action.

And answering that we all deserve hell is no answer.
Then we should all go to hell, or we should all go to heaven.

I and the whole Historic confessional churches believe what is revealed in scripture over it. Others resist these truths which are of great comfort to saints.

This great. The problem is that Christianity existed BEFORE the confessionals, before Luther and Calvin,
and it did NOT AGREE with them, except for poor Augustine who took with him his manacaen belief system.
How could he not? Have been one for 10 years before becoming a Christian.

Those elected by God are given to the Son, by the Father. That is clearly the biblical teaching.
Others are passed by to do what they will to do...remain in sin which they desire.

Who said those left behind desire to be left in sin?
Remember, God has NO REASON for choosing who will be saved and who will be damned but His own desire.
Some desire! Unjust in every sense of the word. And to think that GOD CREATED justice.
All the Mosaic laws were just and made to keep the peace between neighbors ...

And what does this verse mean?

John 12:32
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself.

Does it contradict with John 6:37?
No.

The why is very important....
There must be no contradiction in the bible.

To say that a perfect omniscient God does anything for"no reason at all" is another emotional protest against the God revealed in scripture. Even if you do not agree yet, you should refrain from such statements.

Then please state the reason why God chooses some for salvation and passes over others.
Thanks.

Yes, I understand you are emotional about this. We should have some passion for truth. I do not get offended by large or small fonts

Good. Because I use caps a lot and not for screaming.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's because you have a different meaning for the word SOVEREIGNTY.


Sovereignty [N]
of God, his absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure.
source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sovereignty/
****************************************************
The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question. Often, the concept of divine sovereignty is oversimplified. We tend to assume that, if God is not directly, overtly, purposefully driving some event, then He is somehow not sovereign. The cartoon version of sovereignty depicts a God who must do anything that He can do, or else He is not truly sovereign.

Of course, such a cartoonish view of God’s sovereignty is logically false. If a man were to put an ant in a bowl, the “sovereignty” of the man over the ant is not in doubt. The ant may try to crawl out, and the man may not want this to happen. But the man is not forced to crush the ant, drown it, or pick it up. The man, for reasons of his own, may choose to let the ant crawl away, but the man is still in control. There is a difference between allowing the ant to leave the bowl and helplessly watching as it escapes. The cartoon version of God’s sovereignty implies that, if the man is not actively holding the ant inside the bowl, then he must be unable to keep it in there at all.
source: https://www.gotquestions.org/God-is-sovereign.html
**************************************************************

1130 God, sovereignty of​

The fact that God is free and able to do all that he wills; that he reigns over all creation and that his will is the final cause of all things. This is often expressed in the language of kingship.
source: https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionary-of-bible-themes/1130-God-sovereignty

​

**************************************************************
God can do anything He wants to do.
He is all powerful and reigns in whatever He so wishes to do so.
But read all of the above...
Where does it state that we must NOT have free will or God will not be sovereign.
It is YOUR God that fears man's free will and so does not give to man free will, according to reformed theology.
The God expressed in the bible has no fear of giving man free will.

Men are asked constantly in the OT and NT to make a choice.
A choice requires free will.
Joshua 24:15
CHOOSE this day whom you will serve.
Isaiah 1:19
IF you are WILLING and obedient, you will eat the good of the land.

Daniel 1:18
Daniel proposed in his heart that he would not defile himself.
God begged the people of the OT to obey Him.
Did He not have the sovereignty and power to make them obey?

Jeremiah 44:4-6
3because of their wickedness which they committed so as to provoke Me to anger by continuing to burn sacrifices and to serve other gods whom they had not known, neither they, you, nor your fathers.
4‘Yet I sent you all My servants the prophets, again and again, saying, “Oh, do not do this abominable thing which I hate.”
5‘But they did not listen or incline their ears to turn from their wickedness, so as not to burn sacrifices to other gods.
6‘Therefore My wrath and My anger were poured out ...


Seems from the above that God decreed what these sinful men would do,
but when they did it, He became angry with them and His wrath was poured out.

Didn't God know that HE had decreed the wickedness they would do?
Israel did what they freely wanted to do.

No logic Iconoclast.





A deist God would not have sent Jesus to die for us.


Come let us reason together. Isaiah 1:18
How does a person reason with God IF God has already decreed what that person is going to believe??
Again, no logic.

I use scripture not mans logic or wisdom. Your inventions are not found in scripture. men choose in scripture. it does not mean his will is free. That free will is your false idol keeps you from seeing God as revealed.
You start out posting about God, then jump to man being the real sovereign.
When you go to post the philosophical term free will, picture the golden calf.Same thing

 

[GodsGrace]

I use scripture not mans logic or wisdom. Your inventions are not found in scripture. men choose in scripture. it does not mean his will is free. That free will is your false idol keeps you from seeing God as revealed.
You start out posting about God, then jump to man being the real sovereign.
When you go to post the philosophical term free will, picture the golden calf.Same thing

I posted 5 verses that show we have free will.
What does this have to do with man's logic?
Free will is most certainly found in scripture...
I posted 5 verses....there are more.

You should have read all the highlighted....it explains how we could have free will AND God could still be sovereign.

In the reformed theology these two facts cannot co-exist.
Please post some verses from the NT that show we cannot choose or that we don't have free will.
Jesus certainly thought men have free will...

John 5:40 Jesus said
And you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.

If you are UNWILLING to do something, it means you have the free will choice to DO IT if you wanted to.

Are you WILLING to drive on Alaskan Highways in the winter?


Matthew 7:24 Jesus said
Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and ACTS UPON THEM, may be compared to a wise man...

Jesus is saying that the person has the free will to ACT ON HIS WORDS or not to.

Do you act on the commands of Jesus?
If you don't, is that God making you sin?
Or is it your free will choice not to obey?

Matthew 6:27 Jesus said
And which of you by being anxious can add a single cubit to his lifespan?

Well, didn't Jesus know it was God that had decreed that some would be anxious in life?
Why would Jesus teach something against the Father's will?

Are you ever anxious?
Is it God that has decreed that you be anxious in life when Jesus was teaching that you should not be?
This is a conflict.

We have free will or the NT with Jesus' teachings in it, makes no sense at all.