Objections to God's Sovereignty Answered..........Some

[Iconoclast]

FREE WILL is rarely defined and when it is ... the definition is obtuse save for Libertarian Free Will.

Aside: I actually believe in Free Will as defined as: The ability to choose as determined by our greatest desire. (the question then is: Who/what determines our desires. For example, I know it wasn't my choice to have a depraved nature.... who ever gave it to me did much to form my desires and thus my Free Will choice.

Sam Waldron entertains some ideas that I am not comfortable with along this line,but he then goes into a lengthy explanation to say what I say anyhow.
Sometimes trying to reach out to people outside the truth many reformed persons word things trying to help them. i will post his thoughts when i can.

 

[Iconoclast]

Last post and then good night.
God can do what He wants to do.

wondering
Of course, He Can and does all the time

He created persons and He can allow or command persons to die for reasons that He DOES explain.

Explain in detail why 1 sam15 was just? It is you that suggest it is unjust, and you could not worship a God who does this!
W...which is it? Do I need to list what you posted?

You said;
[I absolutely could not worship a God that creates humans for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal torment.]
you said nothing to explain what I asked you
I asked you two things;
1 ]Have you ever talked to a person who says... I could not worship a god who sends people to hell? You are close to saying that here!
2]walk us through 1Sam 15...verse by verse, was it JUST FOR GOD TO COMMAND THE DEATH OF THE MEN WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, INFANTS ???
WAS IT JUST? OR UNJUST?
Do not skip past it .
I repeat;

God said smite them. men...women..infant...He is holy and Just, can you say the same!

Do you deny God commanded this???:
before you go on and ignore it and offer verses not related to it, answer us!
The God of John 3:16 {you know God is love, that same God}commanded them
...smite them...even the infants,

I am okay with this are you???
God always has a reason...your ignorant comments saying"for no reason" after you have been corrected, stand as ignorant, profane statements against the true and living God. How can you dare to post such a thing?
You are suggesting a Holy God, who is perfect ,is not.
This is horrible. read what you are posting.

It is you who changes the subject.
You do sound very emotional BTW. is used as if reformed believers have never seen it
Not sure why you posted John 3:16..

You suggest "the reformed" do not believe in a loving God. Jn 3:16 is usually put forth. We do.
So be clear here...explain how a "loving God" was just in giving the command to execute all these people, even the infants??? Was it just???

.I understand how you read it....
but, unfortunately, the rest of Christianity understands what it means,

I do not think so

and it does NOT mean
ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE WILL BE SAVED.....DESCRIPTIVE

Not to confuse you with the facts, it means everyone believing, in vs 15,and 16

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

It means
WHOSOEVER WISHES TO BE SAVED WILL BE BY BELIEVING IN JESUS.....PRESCRIPTIVE.

No, it does not, because the natural man does not wish to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
Of course, He Can and does all the time

Explain in detail why 1 sam15 was just? It is you that suggest it is unjust, and you could not worship a God who does this!
W...which is it? Do I need to list what you posted?

You said;
[I absolutely could not worship a God that creates humans for the sole purpose of sending them to eternal torment.]

PLEASE read my posts carefully.
I told you why God is just in the OT and why He is not just regarding predestination AND decreeing in reformed theology.
instead of this useless back and forth, let's do this:

YOU tell me what you think I said.
Reread my post. In your reply to this start off by saying AS YOU REQUESTED I'M REPEATING WHAT I THINK YOU STATED....otherwise you might be removed from this thread re TOS rules.
(Misrepresenting members).

you said nothing to explain what I asked you
I asked you two things;
1 ]Have you ever talked to a person who says... I could not worship a god who sends people to hell? You are close to saying that here!
2]walk us through 1Sam 15...verse by verse, was it JUST FOR GOD TO COMMAND THE DEATH OF THE MEN WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, INFANTS ???
WAS IT JUST? OR UNJUST?
Do not skip past it .
I repeat;

God said smite them. men...women..infant...He is holy and Just, can you say the same!

Do you deny God commanded this???:
before you go on and ignore it and offer verses not related to it, answer us!

I did NOT ignore your question!
Read my post again.
There was a REASON.

You may not think so I,
But my verses ALWAYS are related to the question at hand.

The God of John 3:16 {you know God is love, that same God}commanded them
...smite them...even the infants,

I am okay with this are you???

Of course.
God is sovereign.

God always has a reason...your ignorant comments saying"for no reason" after you have been corrected, stand as ignorant, profane statements against the true and living God. How can you dare to post such a thing?

I can dare to post it because God knows me,,,you don't PLUS you don't seem to really understand what I post which is why we're




If God has a reason for passing over billions of humans, please state it clearly.
Thanks.

You are suggesting a Holy God, who is perfect ,is not.
This is horrible. read what you are posting.

You suggest "the reformed" do not believe in a loving God. Jn 3:16 is usually put forth. We do.
So be clear here...explain how a "loving God" was just in giving the command to execute all these people, even the infants??? Was it just???

Done.

I do not think so

Not to confuse you with the facts, it means everyone believing, in vs 15,and 16

15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I've explained this.
You really need to read my replies to you.

No, it does not, because the natural man does not wish to be saved.

Then why are YOU saved?

 

[Niblo]

......the natural man does not wish to be saved.

Why is this?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You are correct. I brought that up as I was being told that reformed persons do not have a real balance and of course we do not believe in a "loving" God.
So I asked if W understands the same verses here in 1 sam 15 were given by what everybody quotes as the loving God....I just got back online, so I will see if there is a response yet.
God is alwaysLongsuffering and merciful.

Yes he is. God says,

If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise.....
He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live! Eze.18:14,17

So we see in 1Sam.15:3 (kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child), God is speaking in a spiritual sense.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why is this?

Hello Niblo,
Let us look at what scripture says.1cor2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Salvation is of the Lord. Here is 1cor.2 we are told that it is the Holy Spirit that enables a person to welcome spiritual truth. A natural man is an unsaved man. He is in the flesh.

Paul tells us why also in romans 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Why is this?

Adam 's fall has rendered us spiritually dead, unable in and of ourselves to commune with God as saints. Only new birth restores that. God does that to us.

 

[Iconoclast]

PLEASE read my posts carefully.

I do, and in fact I quote your own words. I would never mis-represent anyone.

I told you why God is just in the OT

No, you did not. Unless I missed it?
You did post this;
[wondering said:
He created persons and He can allow or command persons to die for reasons that He DOES explain.}

If this was supposed to answer the question it has failed because the issue, the theology being discussed here was you questioned God as being Just, or not. You raised the question, so I followed with this question which you dance around, because the theology you hold ,has no answer. The reformed theology and people do have answers, which you do not like.
W... I do not mind if you get in my face, ask any questions, call me names, imply the theology I hold is falsehoods etc. I do not have thin skin. That being said...if you or anyone else is going to do things going against reformed teaching, then shrink back when questions come back at you, is that Just?
I know you and no other non cal on here can answer what I asked you. The theology you post cannot answer it without contradiction.
This is in no way a personal attack at all, just the same as when you say what you do about reformed persons. That being said, when any person posts on issues, of necessity when a response is given on an issue...it many times is linked to the person.

and why He is not just regarding predestination AND decreeing in reformed theology.

Not possible

instead of this useless back and forth, let's do this:

Not useless....like in tennis, they volley back and forth until one person cannot offer a return. I think that has happened here. You seem like a nice person but the theology you are holding on to is defective.

YOU tell me what you think I said.

I quoted it. You said God does not have to explain when I ask you my questions, But I have to explain when you ask me.
Or you can expect me to answer but I should not expect you to do the same??? if you go on the offensive ,you need to answer. Why was it just to execute these people, even infants?

Reread my post. In your reply to this start off by saying AS YOU REQUESTED I'M REPEATING WHAT I THINK YOU STATED....otherwise you might be removed from this thread re TOS rules.
(Misrepresenting members).

I have not done anything such as that. Post what you think i said, directly...

I did NOT ignore your question!
Read my post again.
There was a REASON.

like I said..saying God does not have to explain is not valid. When you asked is it Just for God to send billions to hell and I just said...he does not have to explain, would that be a real answer???

You may not think so I,
But my verses ALWAYS are related to the question at hand.

Not always.

Of course.
God is sovereign.



I can dare to post it because God knows me,,,you don't PLUS you don't seem to really understand what I post which is why we're




If God has a reason for passing over billions of humans, please state it clearly.
Thanks.

God has not revealed why, has He? I do know he only has to do what he agreed to in the Covenant of redemption.it is a Covenant salvation

Done.

 

[Niblo]

Adam 's fall has rendered us spiritually dead, unable in and of ourselves to commune with God as saints. Only new birth restores that. God does that to us.

Thank you for your reply.

In Post 142 you declare that ‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

I understood this to be a declaration that the Beloved has removed from ‘natural man’ all desire to seek His forgiveness; all desire to trust Him; and all desire to accept His offer of salvation.

I sought clarification, in Post 144: ‘Why is this?’

You reply:

‘Adam's fall has rendered us spiritually dead, unable in and of ourselves to commune with God as saints. Only new birth restores that. God does that to us.’ (my emphases).

‘Unable in and of ourselves’.

You will agree, I hope, that there is a difference between being ‘unable’ and being unwilling (‘natural man does not wish to be saved.’

‘God does that to us’.

Are you saying that the Beloved restores our ability to commune with Him – to become spiritually alive through ‘new birth’ – whether we wish it or not?

Blessings.

 

[GodsGrace]

Iconoclast said: your a real charmer...I can ask fast freddy

She's always been pleasant with me. I don't recall any personal attacks. She address ideas.
Calling her a "snowflake" was somewhat over the line IMO.
When it comes to controversial doctrine I am with Iconoclast >95% of the time. He has an advantage as his theology is well organized and scrutinize my many people.
No fair Iconoclast ... using creeds and catechisms organized and scrutinized over 100s of years. ( humorous sarcasm)

Well, actually, catechisms and confessions are not supposed to be used in the THEOLOGY FORUM.
Not everyone can know either one.
We're supposed to use biblical verses and state exactly which verse - as you know.
I have the Westminster Confession because I have it, but probably most persons do not,
so it's impossible to discuss it with another member.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please do the same....



Who is the other member?

Grace and peace to you.

It's not necessary to post another member - you can still make your point, as I did.
However, IF you use the name of the other member, please tag them in.

In this case I was referring to Iconoclast .
I'll repeat for his benefit...
Because Iconoclast "teaches" something or other, it is what HE believes to be true...
everyone else on this board does not have to agree with him.

 

[GodsGrace]

FREE WILL is rarely defined and when it is ... the definition is obtuse save for Libertarian Free Will.

Aside: I actually believe in Free Will as defined as: The ability to choose as determined by our greatest desire. (the question then is: Who/what determines our desires. For example, I know it wasn't my choice to have a depraved nature.... who ever gave it to me did much to form my desires and thus my Free Will choice.

WHO DID give you the depraved nature?

 

[GodsGrace]

What do I believe?

Grace and peace to you.

From my conversations with you I believe that you understand that God predestines all men from before time began to either heaven or hell.

I believe that you understand that God predestined, or whatever word you want to use, all things that happen.
However, through some odd theology, He is not responsible for sin or for making man sin, even though God DID predestine everything, or cause it to happen.

I welcome your correction.

 

[GodsGrace]

Presbyterian,reformed Baptist, Anabaptists (older then the Roman rite and not to be considered protestants though they sound like both ) the Anabaptists subsets of primitive and missionary Baptist.

Anglican (puritan) , Quakers

Are ALL Anglicans reformed??
This has always been unclear to me.

 

[jasonc]

Are ALL Anglicans reformed??
This has always been unclear to me.

No but they were historically .

John Wesley was Anglican not a Methodist as he didn't want to change or make a new church.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Well, actually, catechisms and confessions are not supposed to be used in the THEOLOGY FORUM.

Ah, so you would not have us use topical summaries of the Bible which quote scripture profusely as prepared by teachers of God for our edification. Yet, you advice based on, I don't know what .... ridiculous.

Not everyone can know either one.

Untrue .... simply use google ... here, I will help out those who seek truth

A confession is a written, formal statement that acknowledges, declares, and gives evidence of religious beliefs.
Nicene Creed (~325 AD)
Apostle’s Creed (~390 AD)
Athanasian Creed (5TH century) https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/athanasian-creed
THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/2helvcnf.htm
Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms https://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/
THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH 1689 https://founders.org/library-book/1689-confession/
The Westminster Shorter Catechism
https://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/shorter-catechism/


The Heidelberg Catechism
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/the-heidelberg-catechism/

The Belgic Confession
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/the-belgic-confession/


The Canons of Dort
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/canons-of-dort/

The Belhar Confession
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/the-belhar-confession/

Might I also suggest Gotquestions.org

We're supposed to use biblical verses and state exactly which verse - as you know.

I agree. The confessions and catechisms and Gotquestion.org are excellent resources the gather up in seconds information on a multitude of topics which otherwise would take years the various verses to be consider on a particular subject. The lack of a comprehensive study of ALL scripture is critical to understand God. Not doing so is a huge impediment. Many individuals do not understand the bible is a body of unorganized or only partially organized facts. Thus, for Christians to know all the facts on any given subject they must gather together the scattered biblical teachings in order to construct them into a logical and harmonious system. Failure to do so will inevitably lead to false doctrines and the propagation of anti-Christian theology; it will increase the likelihood that people be lead astray by false teachers or unlearned teachers.

 

[Niblo]

No but they were historically .

John Wesley was Anglican not a Methodist as he didn't want to change or make a new church.

The brothers John and Charles Wesley were the founders of Methodism.

Both were former priests of the Anglican
Church.

The Methodist movement sprang from that tradition, and was well-known in the Valleys of South Wales; along with the Wesleyans.

 

[Fastfredy0]

WHO DID give you the depraved nature?

You don't know? Where do you think it came from .... your "free will?" Did Man chose to be depraved? Did you chose to be depraved and if so why?

https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html ... here you go
While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature.

..... and because of this depravity man is not capable on his own to seek God. To compensate for this, the false and unbiblical doctrine of “prevenient grace” (https://www.gotquestions.org/prevenient-grace.html) was created by man to support the he false and unbiblical doctrine of "free will" (where the definition "free will", because it abiblical, has many definitions.

 

[jasonc]

The brothers John and Charles Wesley were the founders of Methodism.

They were dead .the person took their idea and in America ,these were britons and left america before the war for independence.
John Wesley alone ,charles write songs.but didn't create theology ,he also taught Sunday school in Chippewa park .it didn't bear fruit and he left .

My family is tied to Savannah and I took a visit to find it .the statue of Charles and his church nearby Is part of the tour .

John died in I believe 1791

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, so you would not have us use topical summaries of the Bible which quote scripture profusely as prepared by teachers of God for our edification. Yet, you advice based on, I don't know what .... ridiculous.


Untrue .... simply use google ... here, I will help out those who seek truth

A confession is a written, formal statement that acknowledges, declares, and gives evidence of religious beliefs.
Nicene Creed (~325 AD)
Apostle’s Creed (~390 AD)
Athanasian Creed (5TH century) https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/creeds/athanasian-creed
THE SECOND HELVETIC CONFESSION https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/2helvcnf.htm
Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms https://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/
THE BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH 1689 https://founders.org/library-book/1689-confession/
The Westminster Shorter Catechism
https://www.apuritansmind.com/westminster-standards/shorter-catechism/


The Heidelberg Catechism
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/the-heidelberg-catechism/

The Belgic Confession
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/the-belgic-confession/


The Canons of Dort
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/canons-of-dort/

The Belhar Confession
https://www.rca.org/about/theology/creeds-and-confessions/the-belhar-confession/

Might I also suggest Gotquestions.org



I agree. The confessions and catechisms and Gotquestion.org are excellent resources the gather up in seconds information on a multitude of topics which otherwise would take years the various verses to be consider on a particular subject. The lack of a comprehensive study of ALL scripture is critical to understand God. Not doing so is a huge impediment. Many individuals do not understand the bible is a body of unorganized or only partially organized facts. Thus, for Christians to know all the facts on any given subject they must gather together the scattered biblical teachings in order to construct them into a logical and harmonious system. Failure to do so will inevitably lead to false doctrines and the propagation of anti-Christian theology; it will increase the likelihood that people be lead astray by false teachers or unlearned teachers.

What exactly did I say that is ridiculous?
I'd be interested in knowing.

Also, I may agree with everything you've posted.

What I said is this:
On this forum, THEOLOGY, we're to use the bible.
If the confessions and the CCC use biblical verses, then use the biblical verse they use instead of the actual confession or the CCC.

In the past, members were not even allowed to post in THEOLOGY unless they were using verses and backing up everything they stated. This site is trying to relax this rule, however if verses are asked for, then they must be given.

 

[Niblo]

They were dead .the person took their idea and in America ,these were britons and left america before the war for independence.
John Wesley alone ,charles write songs.but didn't create theology ,he also taught Sunday school in Chippewa park .it didn't bear fruit and he left .

My family is tied to Savannah and I took a visit to find it .the statue of Charles and his church nearby Is part of the tour .

John died in I believe 1791

Yes, John died in March 1791, at the age of 87. This was, of course, after he and Charles had founded their movement. Charles' hymns were - are - among the most popular in the UK.

There was a Methodist chapel in my town, not far from my Baptism chapel. As kids we used to tease the Methodists, who still retained touches of their Anglican heritage, by saying that there was 'madness in their method!'. Sadly, both chapels are no more. Mine was pulled down decades ago, and the Methodist chapel is now a block of flats.