Ok, what's the truth.

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Dorothy Mae

So, I honestly and sincerely believe that you are wrong in this idea that the Scriptures don't tell us how old the whole of creation is, not just the earth. And I believe you're wrong in how important understanding that is. Can you even imagine how many young people would retain their faith in God if our natural sciences classes taught the idea that we live in a created universe that was miraculously created by God. I mean yea, let's throw out the 'when' question for now. That we don't really know how the planets were made or the star light got here, but we know that God created it all.

I think it would be better if we told them the Bible does not count out the days or years and it does not matter. What is true is that God made the world. You know, I used to debate atheists during the years my kids were in high school. Debated Darwinism. It went so well I told them my experiences while driving them to school. Both of them said they did not enjoy the lectures but when they encountered atheist arguments from teachers, they were baby easy. They said they were so weak, it was amazing. I armed my children, unwittingly, against the atheist arguments. They are solid believers today.

Do you believe that's the truth?

Yes, I am absolutely convinced that God spoke and material assembled itself at his command. There is no other explanation that makes any sense scientifically or otherwise.

But they don't and so our young people lose faith in the account as told by God and begin to adopt the account as told by man. When you believe that your closest living relative is some kind of ape derivative, why in the world would you think that some God stepped into all this at some weird point in time when some distant ancestor of mine turned into a man? And how do you reconcile that with what I was taught in kiddie bible study. Oh no!! All my friends are laughing at me!!!!

Time to have an adult creation Bible study. It is very satisfying. Evolution (man from non-man) is a sham. Science has failed to demonstrate that it is true but believes it like a religion. It would be better if churches taught their youth these things.

So you ask your college professor, "Well, what was that Noah's ark thing?" And he tells you that those are just religious accounts and that all cultures have them and its just the way people thought that gods were in control over their lives...but we know better now.

None of that was pertinent to any course I took. I did not study earth geography or historical land events.

All because we don't teach what the Scriptures say about the 'how' and 'why' we are here. And sadly, as we move further and further into the last days...neither do our fellowships.

I Agree. It is pizza and games for the youth.

But I've been a believer for more than a week and so I also know that it is not a widely accepted idea among the fellowship. In my own fellowship the pastor and Wed. night leader both believe in a billion, trillions year old creation. However, my small group Sun. morning leader and the pastor of my past fellowship do believe in the recently created universe model.

And some that I have spoken with on this say, "Well, you're not supposed to have to add up days. God doesn't tell you to do that!" Listen please, God's word is full of claims that we need to work out. The prophecy of Daniel 9 is one. What does the 1,260 days mean to you?

The 1260 days was for particular events and they happened as predicted but this is not an eschatology thread.

Nice talking with you. I am enjoying it. How long God took to do something is not as significant as that He did it to me.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I can't say I've heard anyone say it but their behaviour betrays them, and people generally act in accordance with what they believe to be true.


Sure, some if it is because a pastor or teacher will think they know better, but some of that, if not much of it, is due to the difficulties in understanding some parts of the Bible. Some things are clear, some things are not. It also begs the question since those who translate from the available manuscripts must necessarily make judgement calls about what the meaning of a given word is and which "English" word or phrase best brings out that meaning. Much of understanding and interpreting is opinion, and I do believe that the majority are doing it sincerely, but there is educated opinion (such as someone who knows the original languages) and uneducated opinion.

People really do live what they actually believe not what they tell themselves and others they believe, true.

 

[dwb001]

I can't say I've heard anyone say it but their behaviour betrays them, and people generally act in accordance with what they believe to be true.


Sure, some if it is because a pastor or teacher will think they know better, but some of that, if not much of it, is due to the difficulties in understanding some parts of the Bible. Some things are clear, some things are not. It also begs the question since those who translate from the available manuscripts must necessarily make judgement calls about what the meaning of a given word is and which "English" word or phrase best brings out that meaning. Much of understanding and interpreting is opinion, and I do believe that the majority are doing it sincerely, but there is educated opinion (such as someone who knows the original languages) and uneducated opinion.

Who said anything about English?
And people do believe they are smarter than God.
I have heard many people say that they know that the Earth is billions of years old... when God says it isn't.
Then people will say that a day can be any length of time... and then prove my point that they think they know better than God, how He created everything.
If people contradict scripture... then they are assuming the role of spokesperson for God... and that don't fly with me.

 

[miamited]

Hi Dorothy Mae

I think it would be better if we told them the Bible does not count out the days or years and it does not matter.

I understand, and a lot of people think that way, and yet we lose so many youth when they go to college. Maybe it does matter. You know, I can't help but read the last words of 'who' will not be allowed to enter heaven.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Both of them said they did not enjoy the lectures but when they encountered atheist arguments from teachers, they were baby easy.

Apparently you missed the key point in that statement. "When they encountered atheist arguments from teachers". Sure you taught your children to be strong and have answers. Do you think that all the children that have come out of your fellowship and the many, many others around the world have also been taught that? You see, that's exactly what I'm talking about, but it gets even stronger in college grades. Teachers, curriculum in the majority of colleges are going to confront students with an atheistic worldview and because their faith is weak, they falter. I applaud you for raising your children to have an argument against evolution, I suppose that's what you're referring to. Tell me, what do you tell your children about the people who lived before Adam?

Yes, I am absolutely convinced that God spoke and material assembled itself at his command. There is no other explanation that makes any sense scientifically or otherwise.

But you don't believe He was wise enough to tell you the truth, that He did it in six days. Literally repeated in the law twice! I honestly don't get it. God has given us an accounting from Adam, even if we don't believe that the earth was created in six days. Who do you tell your children lived before Adam that we know for a fact was only 6,000 years ago. I mean we know that the genealogies speak to us about the age of Adam, whether you think the earth existed billions of years earlier.

God bless,
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Hi Dorothy Mae

I understand, and a lot of people think that way, and yet we lose so many youth when they go to college. Maybe it does matter. You know, I can't help but read the last words of 'who' will not be allowed to enter heaven.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Apparently you missed the key point in that statement. "When they encountered atheist arguments from teachers". Sure you taught your children to be strong and have answers. Do you think that all the children that have come out of your fellowship and the many, many others around the world have also been taught that? You see, that's exactly what I'm talking about, but it gets even stronger in college grades. Teachers, curriculum in the majority of colleges are going to confront students with an atheistic worldview and because their faith is weak, they falter. I applaud you for raising your children to have an argument against evolution, I suppose that's what you're referring to. Tell me, what do you tell your children about the people who lived before Adam?

But you don't believe He was wise enough to tell you the truth, that He did it in six days. Literally repeated in the law twice! I honestly don't get it. God has given us an accounting from Adam, even if we don't believe that the earth was created in six days. Who do you tell your children lived before Adam that we know for a fact was only 6,000 years ago. I mean we know that the genealogies speak to us about the age of Adam, whether you think the earth existed billions of years earlier.

God bless,
Ted

And if death and disease was part of evolution... then it was part of God's good plan.
So why would death be the penalty for sin?
So why would Jesus need to die to save us?

 

[miamited]

Hi Dorothy Mae

The words "day" means many things.

Yes, the word 'days' means a couple of things. The word 'day' is more specific and, when included with a number, it always, always, always means a earth rotation day. You can check it out, if you want to know. And I believe that God created Adam and Eve to speak to each other and that the Hebrew language came from God for God's people and that God knew when He spoke to them about a 'day', what their language construct understanding of that 'first day' would mean. He knew that they would understand that the 'second day' was the next full earth rotation day.

Why? Why do people always say that you can't have a day without the sun? Did you find out how the length of a day on Mars is determined?

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi dwb001

So why would death be the penalty for sin?
So why would Jesus need to die to save us?

I'll give you the answer, but it's the same as the one in the Scriptures. If you don't believe it from them, you certainly aren't going to believe it from me.

Death is the penalty for because that's what God has decided and that's what He has said.
Jesus had to die for our sin because that's also what God has decided and that's what He has said.

God told Adam that in the day that you eat of the fruit, you will die. And he did. In that moment he was separated from the life giving God and became a dying man. It's like when you pull a flower up by its roots. Oh, it will still look nice and green and pretty for a couple of hours. Then the next day it will be fairly droopy. After about the fourth day it will be dead. But understand please, that plant died the moment you pulled it away from it's nourishment that was keeping it alive.

Hope that helps.
God bless,
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Hi dwb001

I'll give you the answer, but it's the same as the one in the Scriptures. If you don't believe it from them, you certainly aren't going to believe it from me.

Death is the penalty for because that's what God has decided and that's what He has said.
Jesus had to die for our sin because that's also what God has decided and that's what He has said.

God told Adam that in the day that you eat of the fruit, you will die. And he did. In that moment he was separated from the life giving God and became a dying man. It's like when you pull a flower up by its roots. Oh, it will still look nice and green and pretty for a couple of hours. Then the next day it will be fairly droopy. After about the fourth day it will be dead. But understand please, that plant died the moment you pulled it away from it's nourishment that was keeping it alive.

Hope that helps.
God bless,
Ted

So you believe in evolution?
If you do then death and disease is part of God's good creation.
But if evolution is a thing then death did not come into the world by Adam.
Funny that you would deny scripture.
But evolution and time makes fools of us all.

 

[miamited]

Hello dwb001

I'm sorry, I see that you were playing devil's advocate there and I messed it up. If I could edit my post I would.

God bless,
Ted

 

[dwb001]

Hello dwb001

I'm sorry, I see that you were playing devil's advocate there and I messed it up. If I could edit my post I would.

God bless,
Ted

All is good.

 

[miamited]

So you believe in evolution?

No! I've never said that. But like you, I was responding by question to Dorothy Mae when I asked what she tells her children about the people living before Adam.

No, I'm confident that Adam was the first man to ever live on the earth and that there's just no way that Adam evolved from some other animal that had only been created the day before.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Free]

Who said anything about English?

I did.

And people do believe they are smarter than God.
I have heard many people say that they know that the Earth is billions of years old... when God says it isn't.

God doesn't say how old it is.

Then people will say that a day can be any length of time... and then prove my point that they think they know better than God, how He created everything.

God only says he spoke.

If people contradict scripture... then they are assuming the role of spokesperson for God... and that don't fly with me.

And this brings me to my whole point about translations: you're begging the question that any given translation is absolutely correct in the first place. It also begs the question that you're completely objective and don't see as in a mirror dimly.

 

[dwb001]

I did.

For some unknown reason.

God doesn't say how old it is.

Yes He does... maybe you are not listening.

God only says he spoke.

Good.

And this brings me to my whole point about translations: you're begging the question that any given translation is absolutely correct in the first place. It also begs the question that you're completely objective and don't see as in a mirror dimly.

No I am not. You haven't asked me any questions that would give you that impression.
Where do you get that I am objective?
Wow... do you assume this much about everyone?
Try asking a question that might explain something before jumping to conclusions.
This happens so much on this site and it is getting old.
If you think something about someone... ask a few questions.
I see "as in a mirror"... You see as in a mirror... projecting onto others your own failings.
That is how it looks to me. Just my opinion though.
Please stop judging others without evidence or investigation.
Ask a simple question or two.

I do not believe that any translation is 100% correct. Language does not work that way.
And I have opinions and a wold view... just like everyone here... and I make assumptions based on my views... as does everyone here... BUT I ask questions to allow a person to clarify their position.

Your whole post had not a single question in it... but lots of judgements.
Something to work on.

 

[Free]

For some unknown reason.

No, it is clear what my point was.

Yes He does... maybe you are not listening.

Where does God say how old it is?

No I am not.

Not what? You certainly seem to believe that others are wrong based on your interpretation of Scripture and then conclude that your interpretation is correct.

You haven't asked me any questions that would give you that impression.
Where do you get that I am objective?
Wow... do you assume this much about everyone?

If it's warranted. If someone says, as you did, that "If people contradict scripture... then they are assuming the role of spokesperson for God... and that don't fly with me," that means one thinks they're objective, or at least more objective than anyone they disagree with. You are presuming that your interpretation is right and then you're judging them, without asking, as "assuming the role of spokesperson for God."

Try asking a question that might explain something before jumping to conclusions.
This happens so much on this site and it is getting old.
If you think something about someone... ask a few questions.
I see "as in a mirror"... You see as in a mirror... projecting onto others your own failings.
That is how it looks to me. Just my opinion though.

Please stop judging others without evidence or investigation.

Ask a simple question or two.

I've asked you questions in the past, after you wanted me to ask you questions, but then you didn't answer them. You can't have it both ways.

One of my points is that we all see as in a mirror dimly, so we shouldn't go around presuming that our interpretation is right and that others are assuming the role spokesperson for God, as that would be doing the very thing you're chastising others for doing. As I said, some things are clear, some things are not, so we should be careful.

I do not believe that any translation is 100% correct. Language does not work that way.

That is exactly my point.

And I have opinions and a wold view... just like everyone here... and I make assumptions based on my views... as does everyone here... BUT I ask questions to allow a person to clarify their position.

Not always, from what I've recently seen.

Your whole post had not a single question in it... but lots of judgements.
Something to work on.

And you as well.

 

[dwb001]

No, it is clear what my point was.

You were responding to me.. and I say NO IT IS NOT CLEAR.
You may think it is clear... but no it is not.

Where does God say how old it is?

All them begats in the Bible.
If you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God... then all those numbers in there are also inspired. And addition is a wonderful tool that God gave us.

Not what? You certainly seem to believe that others are wrong based on your interpretation of Scripture and then conclude that your interpretation is correct.

Begging any questions.

If it's warranted. If someone says, as you did, that "If people contradict scripture... then they are assuming the role of spokesperson for God... and that don't fly with me," that means one thinks they're objective, or at least more objective than anyone they disagree with. You are presuming that your interpretation is right and then you're judging them, without asking, as "assuming the role of spokesperson for God."

You are again so very wrong. Maybe ask what I mean by that statement before assuming so very much.
When did I say my interpretation is right? Was not the statement an "if...then" statement?

I've asked you questions in the past, after you wanted me to ask you questions, but then you didn't answer them. You can't have it both ways.

So you want to talk about the past?
Why are you so fixated on the past?
Maybe your questions were rubbish to begin with.
Maybe I saw your questions as not relevant.

One of my points is that we all see as in a mirror dimly, so we shouldn't go around presuming that our interpretation is right and that others are assuming the role spokesperson for God, as that would be doing the very thing you're chastising others for doing. As I said, some things are clear, some things are not, so we should be careful.

I haven't done that in these comments.
Yes... be careful. Ask questions before going off half cocked.

That is exactly my point.

See... not actually clear here.
Do you agree with my statement... or are you pointing out that I am making some assumptions here and this is a criticism?
See... I don't understand what you are saying... so I ask a clarifying question while explaining what I am confused about.

Not always, from what I've recently seen.

I don't know of a single post I have made on this site that does not have at least one question in it.
I may have posted some(a single word response usually)... but few and far between.

And you as well.

My post didn't have a single question?
Really?
I should work on asking more questions?
Is that what you are saying?
Are you sure?
Is that what you really want?

 

[miamited]

Hi Free

Where does God say how old it is?

Why is it that nobody can add?

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi Dorothy Mae

If I might ask you another question. When did the flood take place?

God bless,
Ted

 

[ezrider]

I suppose that's what you're referring to. Tell me, what do you tell your children about the people who lived before Adam?

Ted, from where did Cain take his wife?

 

[dwb001]

Ted, from where did Cain take his wife?

Not Ted here... but wouldn't the answer be a sister or a cousin?

 

[dwb001]

Not Ted here... but wouldn't the answer be a sister or a cousin?

Niece... probably... not cousin.
I never got the hang of family relations.