Old Testament Genocide

[craigmn3]

God is the giver and taker of life, He alone has the right to do so.


Now these people who were killed, knew the Army of Israel was coming, they could have left.....they chose to stand and oppose the people of God.

We must never forget that inside that velvet glove of love, is an iron hand

 

[Ashua]

God is a God of love. His is also a God of justice.

Contradiction? Nope.

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. -Psalm 5:5

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. -Proverbs 1:24-33

The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked Psalm 58:10-11

Not all of humanity are "God's children". Not all are "loved". Those who hate God, will be recompensed. God makes his rain to fall and the sun to shine on the just and the unjust for a season and treats them well, but those who will not repent, will reap the calamity which they have sown.

 

[barelohim]

"The Flesh profits nothing!" "All flesh is as the flower of grass!"

We look at ourselves as flesh and blood human beings, and that death is the end of our life. What we need to understand is that we are spiritual beings living in flesh and blood bodies. When the body dies, the spirit, of which we are, is eternal and leaves the body for another place, either eternal Light, or Darkness {for simplicity only} and unseen in this sensual world.

God doesn't look at the outward appearance of mankind, He looks at the inward, the spirit of the individual, again, which is eternal.

Since the fall of the first man and woman God created, the spirit of man, has lost contact with Him, who is Spirit. BUT, because He planned this to happen He caused all spiritual creatures to arrive at one place, death! Where He had already provided a redeemer for all that were held in that prison.

The Old testament stories, enactments, shadows, were a demonstration of the fallability of the outward and spiritually disengaged human beings to do, and or keep, the simplest of devices, God designed, to show man his weak condition, and the need of a redeemer/comforter/provider/etc..

The new testament says, we, those who have received that new life, through re-birth, should learn from mistakes those of the Old covenant made.

They, through trying to succeed through their own strengths, which failed. And we learn that the only success is through our spirit, being united with His Spirit, and following His lead.

Although God was with Israel, and many of the other nations saw, and knew, God was with Israel, Israel never came to KNOW GOD! And they would never KNOW HIM, even to this day, because GOD IS ONLY KNOWN THROUGH HIS SON/THE WORD; AS HIS SON/THE WORD, IS RECEIVED AND UNITED WITH OUR SPIRIT!

The bible is more than ink on paper. Those words become LIFE when the Spirit of GOD, quickens them to ones regenerated spirit. Otherwise they become something practised, and remain dead letter....

Roman 10.... When we believe in our hearts/spirit, that God raised Christ from the dead, and confess that belief, we will be made alive to Spiritual things...

Amen!
Barelohim.

 

[Deavonreye]

Everyone has one. But the Bible supersedes yours.


Please post the scripture that actually states this definition that you aluded to.


When Satan dupes a person, it is very hard for him to know it. Holy Spirit does His job 'correctly'! But it is your choice to remain where you are. It is up to you to CHOOSE CORRECTLY.

You have been given truth and you will have to stand before God knowing that you had it handed to you so many times yet rejected it. You are responsible before Him for the truth you have been given.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are making it sound like I have received EQUAL evidence that THIS religion is the right one and ALL others are wrong. You have given me YOUR "truth", but have no more evidence [that can be tested] to show this AS the truth, so if I stand before any deity, this deity cannot ethically deal with me justly UNLESS it comes to me on a level that would make sense to me.

Now, if . . . IF. . . the biblical god is the true one, then it will have the power to do to me what it wishes and I will have no power to stop it. But I will go into punishment with my virtue intact [because I was only being honest].

 

[Deavonreye]

Drew:

The problem with this is that while we are instructed (by Jesus) to implement justice in a restorative, constructive manner in a spirit of love, we have this Old Testament image of a petulant, angry, vindictive god who apparently cannot do what He, through Jesus, is asking us to do.

Don't get me wrong - I believe that God indeed ordered the Old Testament genocides. But I believe that these were not done in accordance with the concept of "justice" that most Christians have in their minds - one where "somebody's gotta get hurt" in order to satisfy some cosmic balance of justice.

I suggest a better approach, more true to the fine-grained details of what we read in Scripture is to interpret these genocides as part of a lengthy plan where God is out, not to have babies run through with swords to satisfy a seemingly arbitrary standard of "justice", but rather to take the steps needed to rid the world of the true enemy - the power of sin at work in the world.

And after all these attempts, god still fails. Evil continues. It wasn't even slowed down.

Why do I still choose to believe my own notion about the OT genocides? Because it really is the most plausible answer. Why? Because when it can be proven that other biblical stories of divine presence were not literal, it can be concluded that there is a high possibility that others were fabricated as well.

I still conclude that the religious leaders, through the "holy of holies" [where only they were allowed to go under penalty of death], required the use of "thus saith the lord" in order to get their people to do what they wanted. That is my opinion IF there is even any factual truth to those stories in the first place.


*Disclaimer: No one should read any of my posts as if I am "angry". I enjoy the back and forth.

 

[Deavonreye]

Related question:

In light of "the 10 commandments", what does "kill" mean?

 

[farouk]

farouk, are you really comparing "numbers of dead" as an argument? It is not relevant to this topic.

By the way, I'm not here defending the dictators who were the cause of millions of deaths, nor am I here defending their ideologies.

d:

As you know, the topic was supposed to be about 'genocide'.

But anyway, you seem strongly to want to advance views which are so - vastly - different from the teachings of God's Word that there is bound to be disagreement.

(I would of course encourage you to read God's Word trustingly, because I found the Savior there.)

But otherwise ppl will be repeating themselves, with no agreement.

 

[mondar]

It does not surprise me that God had races wiped out in the OT. In fact he did it to all mankind in a flood. What surprises me is that he does not wipe out all mankind once and for all. Who is man, that God should tolerate our rebellion?

 

[Deavonreye]

It does not surprise me that God had races wiped out in the OT. In fact he did it to all mankind in a flood. What surprises me is that he does not wipe out all mankind once and for all. Who is man, that God should tolerate our rebellion?

Mondar, can you look at your child [assuming you have one, if not, visualize] and say, "this little thing deserves eternal punishment."?

 

[farouk]

The Bible says, 'In sin did my mother conceive me'.

However, if one's presupposition is that mankind doesn't need the Saviour, then why come posting on a Christian site?

 

[Alabaster]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. You are making it sound like I have received EQUAL evidence that THIS religion is the right one and ALL others are wrong. You have given me YOUR "truth", but have no more evidence [that can be tested] to show this AS the truth, so if I stand before any deity, this deity cannot ethically deal with me justly UNLESS it comes to me on a level that would make sense to me.

Now, if . . . IF. . . the biblical god is the true one, then it will have the power to do to me what it wishes and I will have no power to stop it. But I will go into punishment with my virtue intact [because I was only being honest].

In this area I am right.

What virtue does one have without Christ? Those who are without salvation have no virtue, and they go to hell without anything intact.

Colossians 3:1-14

Living as Those Made Alive in Christ

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.



As for the fear of God:

Question: "What does it mean to have the fear of God?"

Answer: For the unbeliever, the fear of God is the fear of the judgment of God and eternal death, which is eternal separation from God (Luke 12:5; Hebrews 10:31). For the believer, the fear of God is something much different. The believer's fear is reverence of God. Hebrews 12:28-29 is a good description of this: “Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our ’God is a consuming fire.’” This reverence and awe is exactly what the fear of God means for Christians. This is the motivating factor for us to surrender to the Creator of the Universe.

Proverbs 1:7 declares, “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.” Until we understand who God is and develop a reverential fear of Him, we cannot have true wisdom. True wisdom comes only from understanding who God is and that He is holy, just, and righteous. Deuteronomy 10:12, 20-21 records, “And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.” The fear of God is the basis for our walking in His ways, serving Him, and, yes, loving Him.

Some redefine the fear of God for believers to “respecting” Him. While respect is definitely included in the concept of fearing God, there is more to it than that. A biblical fear of God, for the believer, includes understanding how much God hates sin and fearing His judgment on sin—even in the life of a believer. Hebrews 12:5-11 describes God’s discipline of the believer. While it is done in love (Hebrews 12:6), it is still a fearful thing. As children, the fear of discipline from our parents no doubt prevented some evil actions. The same should be true in our relationship with God. We should fear His discipline, and therefore seek to live our lives in such a way that pleases Him.

Believers are not to be scared of God. We have no reason to be scared of Him. We have His promise that nothing can separate us from His love (Romans 8:38-39). We have His promise that He will never leave us or forsake us (Hebrews 13:5). Fearing God means having such a reverence for Him that it has a great impact on the way we live our lives. The fear of God is respecting Him, obeying Him, submitting to His discipline, and worshipping Him in awe.

Recommended Resource: Knowing God by J.I. Packer.

Source: What does it mean to have the fear of God?

 

[craigmn3]

The Bible says, 'In sin did my mother conceive me'.

However, if one's presupposition is that mankind doesn't need the Saviour, then why come posting on a Christian site?

On any board, site or forum where moderation is lax, these scoffers abound. Sent by their father I suppose

Thank goodness for tight moderation

 

[farouk]

C: Still, we need to pray for them.

 

[Deavonreye]

Alabaster, I know that you firmly believe your case to be truth. . . . outside of real evidence, I can't honestly do so. Putting my faith in "things above", when there isn't even adequate evidence that there IS "anything above" is something that I personally would consider to be irrational.

As for this topic, I will still stand by my opinion [man ordered, only]. . . IF it all even occured.

 

[farouk]

Alabaster, I know that you firmly believe your case to be truth. . . . outside of real evidence, I can't honestly do so. Putting my faith in "things above", when there isn't even adequate evidence that there IS "anything above" is something that I personally would consider to be irrational.

As for this topic, I will still stand by my opinion [man ordered, only]. . . IF it all even occured.

D:

Again, your post proves my point that if one's presupposition is that mankind doesn't need the Saviour, then why come posting on a Christian site?

But I am praying for you.

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster, I know that you firmly believe your case to be truth. . . . outside of real evidence, I can't honestly do so. Putting my faith in "things above", when there isn't even adequate evidence that there IS "anything above" is something that I personally would consider to be irrational.

As for this topic, I will still stand by my opinion [man ordered, only]. . . IF it all even occured.

Faith isn't supposed to adhere to the rational! The rational is limited! Faith supersedes rational thought and brings about what is hoped for, because it is built on the solid Rock of Jesus Christ.

 

[Deavonreye]

Well, I am afraid that we will have to do that silly "agree to disagree" on this topic, Alabaster. Because of the many "faith" institutions, I could not logically choose one, regardless of the firm belief of the followers. Until I have a reason to actually see things as you do, I will have to keep my honesty intact.

farouk, this topic isn't about "man needing a savior", but about people as "pawns, being moved on a board" and "being sacrificed to win a game". I bring it up because there are those who see the OT Genocides [and forced slavery] as being immoral and unethical, AND if it were because of the orders of a deity, then that deity would have to be as immoral and unethical. The point of argument is that christianity does not see it AS being immoral because [basically] it is god's world and he can do what he wants to have his will done. I choose to see it as the most probable, . . . just men working their will.

 

[Alabaster]

Well, I am afraid that we will have to do that silly "agree to disagree" on this topic, Alabaster. Because of the many "faith" institutions, I could not logically choose one, regardless of the firm belief of the followers. Until I have a reason to actually see things as you do, I will have to keep my honesty intact.

Institutions? Jesus doesn't expect you to choose some sort of belief system or church or institution! He simply wants you to receive Him. He will come into your life and live with you and bless you.

Honesty doesn't enter into this. You will be ashamed to stand before God Almighty one day and say, "Well, I knew about your love and your plan of salvation, which frees me from an eternity of torment, but I had too much integrity to receive the payment for my sin."

Frankly, that is the extremity of foolishness.

 

[Deavonreye]

Alabaster, no I won't! I don't "know" about anything other than what men are telling me to believe! I'm sorry that we aren't connecting with this point. Especially when too many of his messengers [christian denominations, of which I talked about in another thread] state differing theologies. We're just going around in circles on this topic and I'm not sure how else to state that I need more than just men's word and their piousness. If I tried for 30 years, receiving silence, I would be foolish to continue trying.

 

[Elijah674]

Well, I am afraid that we will have to do that silly "agree to disagree" on this topic, Alabaster. Because of the many "faith" institutions, I could not logically choose one, regardless of the firm belief of the followers. Until I have a reason to actually see things as you do, I will have to keep my honesty intact.

farouk, this topic isn't about "man needing a savior", but about people as "pawns, being moved on a board" and "being sacrificed to win a game". I bring it up because there are those who see the OT Genocides [and forced slavery] as being immoral and unethical, AND if it were because of the orders of a deity, then that deity would have to be as immoral and unethical. The point of argument is that christianity does not see it AS being immoral because [basically] it is god's world and he can do what he wants to have his will done. I choose to see it as the most probable, . . . just men working their will.

God is a God of free will! You have problems with that? satan lives on for a time yet, even note the freedom given Israel to blunder! One time they made a league with the heathen that if the men would be circumcised, then they could live in peace with them. AND??? before the men 'healed' they were executed! And that you blame God for!

1Sam.8
[1] And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.
[2] Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beer-sheba.
[3] And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.
[4] Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
[5] And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
[6] But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
[7] And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
[8] According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.
[9] Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
....
[19] Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
[20] That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
[21] And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
[22] And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. ...'

---Elijah