Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[FreeGrace]

Yes, we are kept for the day of salvation by the power of God through faith.

"4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

The power of God is accessed through your faith. No more faith, no more access to the power of God to keep you for the day of salvation.

I think you've misunderstood the noun for "faith". It's not our action that keeps us saved. The word "faith" is a noun, and means God's Word, which is what we believe. God's Word is what keeps us saved, by grace.

As to what keeps us "for the day of salvation", Paul said it this way:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise Eph 1:13

Then, Paul said this:
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, having believed, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit "in Him". And we were sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

I find it informative that Paul even included the problem of grieving the Holy Spirit. In spite of doing that, we are STILL sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Seems according to the 'loss of salvation' crowd, if one grieves the Holy Spirit, they lose salvation.

Clearly, they do not.

 

[JLB]

I have no idea what you are trying to prove.

I am proving from the scriptures that sons of God, angels, were cast down to hell for ungodly disobedience, as a warning and an example to us.

Specifically a warning to false teachers who would promote ungodliness in God's people, by teaching false doctrine.


But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

Doom of False Teachers -

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 2 Peter 2:1-6


JLB

 

[JLB]

Therefore, those who are saved WILL NEVER PERISH.

Those who receive the salvation of their souls at the end of their faith will never perish, because they endured to the end.

These are overcomers who will not be blotted out of the book of life.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

and again

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14



JLB

 

[JLB]

Then, Paul said this:
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, having believed, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit "in Him". And we were sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

I find it informative that Paul even included the problem of grieving the Holy Spirit. In spite of doing that, we are STILL sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

The Holy Spirit is the "seal", God's seal of approval, given to those who believe.


THose who believe for a while, then turn away from Him in unbelief, have returned to being unbelievers.


Please show the scriptures that teach us un-believers have the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[smaller]

This debate goes on continually. It can not be resolved. In fact it is basically impossible to resolve it.

Why? Because we all bear flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And every believer is dead set to save that which is contrary to and against the Spirit.

There is a scriptural resolution to this argument. Few however will accept it.

So, let's trot out Paul for an example:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above, Paul can not be lost. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh can not be saved.

There, sliced right through the child, cutting him in half. There is the answer to this debate. There is the Sword of the Word, providing the solution.

When Jesus said He Is in the "midst of us" HE IS standing between US and our ADVERSARY in the flesh, as The Great Divider. Saving ONE, condemning the OTHER.

See?

 

[FreeGrace]

I am proving from the scriptures that sons of God, angels, were cast down to hell for ungodly disobedience, as a warning and an example to us.

Your view that one who has been given eternal life may end up in hell. Yet Jesus plainly tells us that those to whom He has given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. (Jn 10:28). Your defense that v.28 refers only to those believers who continue to "follow Him" is refuted by Jesus' standard for getting saved, which is found in v.9 where He said this:
"“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." Jn 10:9

The word "enters" is an aorist tense. Do you understand the implications of the aorist tense here? It means a one time or "point in time" action. Not continuous action, which you claim is necessary to stay saved.

And Jesus also used the aorist tense when speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well when He said this:
"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” Jn 4:14

The word for "drinks" is also in the aorist tense.

One has to only enter through the gate once (Jn 10:9) or drink once (Jn 4:14) in order to receive eternal life.

And all who have received eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. Jn 10:28

You have not refuted any of this.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who receive the salvation of their souls at the end of their faith will never perish, because they endured to the end.

Jesus never added that condition in John 10:28. And salvation is received WHEN one believes, as I've shown repeatedly. Jn 5:24, 3:16, Luke 8:12.

I don't understand why anyone would think that they aren't saved until the end of their life. There is no basis for that.

 

[FreeGrace]

The Holy Spirit is the "seal", God's seal of approval, given to those who believe.

That's right. And they are sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION, even those who grieve the Holy Spirit:
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Eph 4:30

If there was ever a verse that could teach loss of salvation, or the breaking of God's seal, this would be it. But there is NO such warning.

We all know what grieving the Holy Spirit means. It means any sin. Yet, Paul says nothing about any kind of sin breaking the seal. Because we are sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Clear as crystal.

THose who believe for a while, then turn away from Him in unbelief, have returned to being unbelievers.

Please provide any Scripture that teaches that those who cease to believe cease to be saved.

Please show the scriptures that teach us un-believers have the Holy Spirit.
JLB

No, please provide any Scripture that teaches that those who cease to believe cease to be saved.

However, I will show from Scripture that those who have been given the Holy Spirit will still have Him FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION:
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promiseEph 1:13
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

So far, all you've provided is an opinion, which is based on nothing more than assumption, since you've not provided any Scripture to support your assumed opinion.

I base all of my understanding on what Scripture actually says. I assume nothing.

 

[JLB]

This debate goes on continually. It can not be resolved. In fact it is basically impossible to resolve it.

Why? Because we all bear flesh, which is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And every believer is dead set to save that which is contrary to and against the Spirit.

There is a scriptural resolution to this argument. Few however will accept it.

So, let's trot out Paul for an example:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above, Paul can not be lost. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh can not be saved.

There, sliced right through the child, cutting him in half. There is the answer to this debate. There is the Sword of the Word, providing the solution.

When Jesus said He Is in the "midst of us" HE IS standing between US and our ADVERSARY in the flesh, as The Great Divider. Saving ONE, condemning the OTHER.

See?

There is no debate to it.

Those who simply do not believe the plain and clear, irrefutable words of truth, must find a way, to "redefine' and "rearrange" the words of scripture to [re] "make" these words into what their itching ears want to hear.


Will not inherit the kingdom of God, is a prime example.

Those who practice the works of the flesh... will not inherit the kingdom of God.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• If you inherit the kingdom of God, then you have your portion in God's Kingdom.

• If you do not inherit the kingdom of God, then you have no portion in God's Kingdom.

People who teach OSAS have no way around this scripture. They are forced to "redefine" the phrase will not inherit the kingdom, to mean something else.

• People who stand before Jesus Christ, on the Day of Judgement, who hear these words spoken to them...‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:... will have their portion in God's kingdom. Matthew 25:34

• Those who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will hear these terrifying words from the Lord... ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

A simple reading of Matthew 24 & 25 shows without a doubt this simple, foundational truth.

Matthew 24 & 25 are teaching from Jesus Christ about His servants. Not unbelievers, but His servants.


45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51


and again


26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents. 29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:26-29


The Context in which the phrase inherit the kingdom is used, and to whom it pertains -



26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 Therefore take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.

29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 26-34,41


Plainly enough, Jesus is the Shepherd of both the sheep and the goats.

Jesus just got through teaching about His servants who were given talents [gifts] and some reproduced their talents, while others of His servants did nothing with theirs.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus never added that condition

Of course He did.

What you are attempting to teach is that because John did not record some words of Jesus, then Jesus must have never taught them.

Ridiculous!!!

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while



Still waiting for you to post the scriptures that teach us "un-believers" are saved.





JLB

 

[smaller]

There is no debate to it.

I don't think so either. Jesus assuredly condemns the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh and does so in our own as well. This is the part that nobody cares to observe, but it DOES solve this debate.

We will live by Every Word of God. Yes, even those Words on the dire side of the ledgers. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4.

Few care to hear of it, that's all. And if we observe Paul's statements of fact, we know who doesn't care to hear of it and also why the debate will continue to rage on, in futility.

 

[MarkT]

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd...27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. John 10:16,27-29

If the sheep of verse 27 represent "all believers", then who are the other sheep in verse 16?

We are the other sheep. We belong to the Gentile fold.

The "sheep" of verse 27 represent His disciples.

No. The disciples were Israelites. They belonged to the Israelite fold. John 10 is speaking of other sheep not of the Israelite fold which is the fold Jesus was sent to because Jesus was sent only to the house of Israel. Mt. 15:24 The 12 disciples were sent to find the sheep of the Israelite fold. Jesus charged them saying, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt. 10:5 The difference between the chosen sheep and the called sheep is the chosen sheep would be the leaders of the fold.

The "sheep" that "my Father has given Me" is a direct reference to His disciples, as he makes this clear later in chapter 17...

We know twelve were chosen and given to him and they would become the leaders of the church, but Jesus' saying is meant for his other sheep too. John 10:27-29 isn't specific to the twelve. Peter was basically stationed in Jerusalem. Paul was chosen to preach the good news to the Gentiles.

John 17 -

12 While I was with them in the world,I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled... 20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;


I do not pray for these alone... is clearly a reference to His disciples.


None of them are lost, except the son of perdition is referring to His disciples and Judas Iscariot, that followed Him while He was on earth in the flesh.



JLB

Right. Here Jesus is referring to the twelve who were given to him. But Jesus said he wasn't praying for them alone. The other sheep are his sheep too, and Jesus said he was praying for them too.

Like I said, his sheep are the ones who follow his instruction and keep his commandments.

 

[reba]

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[JLB]

We are the other sheep. We belong to the Gentile fold.

Ok, so you are saying that the sheep of John 10: 27 refers to Israelite's?

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:25-27

 

[JLB]

Like I said, his sheep are the ones who follow his instruction and keep his commandments.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27

Not follow instructions; Follow Me.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no debate to it.

Those who simply do not believe the plain and clear, irrefutable words of truth, must find a way, to "redefine' and "rearrange" the words of scripture to [re] "make" these words into what their itching ears want to hear.

Your opinion is offensively wrong.

What is clear from Scripture is that Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe when they believe (Jn 5:24) and they WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28). What isn't clear about that?

And Paul taught that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION (Eph 4:30). What isn't clear about that?

Your entire theory is based simply upon assumption. Nothing else.

You assume that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. Yet, you have not proved your theory.

Will not inherit the kingdom of God, is a prime example.

Yes, it is a prime example of what the believer will LOSE in heaven; the privilege of reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12) for not enduring.

Those who practice the works of the flesh... will not inherit the kingdom of God.

That is correct. And that does not refer to loss of salvation, as you keep assuming, yet fail to prove.

Your theory fails to consider the biblical teaching of reward for faithful obedience and loss of reward for being unfaithful or disobedient.

 

[smaller]

Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this in response to your adding to what Jesus NEVER said in John 10:28:
"Jesus never added that condition"

Of course He did.

No, He didn't. You are the one who added to what Jesus said.

What you are attempting to teach is that because John did not record some words of Jesus, then Jesus must have never taught them.

Ridiculous!!!

And you are now claiming that you must have been there and heard ALL the words that John failed to record.

Yes, that is totally ridiculous.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Believe = Saved
Believe for a while = Saved for a while

I'm still waiting for the proof of your opinion that one is only saved as long as they keep believing.

Still waiting for you to post the scriptures that teach us "un-believers" are saved.

I proved that once saved means always saved by Jesus' use of the aorist tense in John 4:14 when He said that those who drink WILL NEVER THIRST. You've not refuted that.

Then, Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 about believing and being saved.

As well, Paul used the aorist tense when he answered the jailer in Acts 16:31 and Rom 10:10 about being saved.

So, the aorist tense refutes your theory and opinion and assumption and you have not refuted any of it.

 

[MarkT]

Ok, so you are saying that the sheep of John 10: 27 refers to Israelite's?

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
John 10:25-27

No. The sheep of John 10:27 are those who hear his voice and follow him.

 

[smaller]

No. The sheep of John 10:27 are those who hear his voice and follow him.

IF we read the account of the sheep/goats in Matt. 25 we should see that these are clearly deployed in terms of allegory.

A sheep will hear EVERY WORD of God. And when they DO HEAR, they may honestly come to the conclusion that they do goat works, when they don't do sheep works. But a goat will never hear both sides of the ledgers. A sheep will hear Every Word, and understand.

Just food for thought.

How many honest sheep will raise their hands and say they don't always and only do sheep works?

I suspect very few. Because to be honest, the sheep will see A GOAT! And understand that they do do BOTH works, good and evil.

Believers read these parables and they automatically insert themselves only on the good side of the ledgers. That's how the "flesh" operates. They can't come to "honest" conclusions. The flesh won't allow it.