Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[JLB]

I'm surprised at you JLB.
You know better than to base your whole doctrine on one verse.
Use another verse to go with it.
Show us who was saved and lost their salvation.
Maybe Judas Iscariot?
Go ahead, show us that he was actually saved.
Got any other verses to support your use of John 15:6?
Show us.

Here's another:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:1-2


JLB

 

[smaller]

Well, just look at all the posts by all the conditional security folk. They have given all kinds of reasons why salvation can be lost by WHAT WE DO. Or stop doing.

Exactly the point. As if Jesus and His Power is completely out of the picture.

When we "walk" in the Spirit it is NOT our spirit we are walking in.

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Zechariah 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Every resistor to the eternal security of believers in Christ eliminates The Power of Christ to SAVE from their equations altogether, by hook or by crook, to do so.

It can't be done.

Or they'll only acknowledge and claim that God in Christ is forced into a corner that MUST DESTROY and NEVER SAVE.

Kinda odd if you ask. me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Here's another:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:1-2


JLB

Okay, then we have a contradiction with John 10:27-30;
If what you say is true, you must put my verses together with your verses.
John 10 and John 15 have to agree with each other.
Show me.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are angels called sons of God, making God their Father.

I believe that comparing humans to angels is no different than comparing apples to oranges.

Are you saying someone else is the Father of angels?

I am saying that comparing angels to humans is no different than trying to compare apples to oranges.

I've already asked you to provide any evidence that angels BECAME "sons of God" in the SAME WAY that humans BECOME "sons of God". Where is the evidence? There is none. So, your attempt to compare angels to humans is in error.

Angels are certainly called sons of God, as well as those who attain to the resurrection.

Do angels "attain to the resurrection"? Please provide Scriptural evidence.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36

This isn't evidence. It says only that humans won't procreate or marry in heaven, just like angels. It sure doesn't say that angels will "attain to the resurrection".

Simply denying basic foundational truths shows us plainly that your "doctrine" is lacking in the full counsel of God.
JLB

You've given no evidence from Scripture for this statement. In fact, you haven't been able to defend your own position.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's another:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
John 15:1-2
JLB

Since Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28, please support your view that "takes away" means loss of salvation.

If that can be proven from Scripture, then Jesus was contradicting Himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

Okay, then we have a contradiction with John 10:27-30;
If what you say is true, you must put my verses together with your verses.
John 10 and John 15 have to agree with each other.
Show me.

I've already shown how your view has Jesus contradicting Himself. How can that be true?

 

[JLB]

Since Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28, please support your view that "takes away" means loss of salvation.

If that can be proven from Scripture, then Jesus was contradicting Himself.

Why don't you write out the scripture, so everyone can see what you are referring to, and the context.

John 10:29 and the term My sheep, is a reference to His disciples, who heard His Voice and followed Him.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd...

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

These disciples of His followed Him throughout the land of Israel, wherever He went.

You have taken this verse, out of it's context, and have tried to apply it to everyone.


In addition, by saying "other sheep", it is clear that the sheep Jesus referred to in verse 27, were His disciples.

If you think that "sheep" in verse 27 refers to all believers, then who are the "other" sheep He refers to?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Okay, then we have a contradiction with John 10:27-30;
If what you say is true, you must put my verses together with your verses.
John 10 and John 15 have to agree with each other.
Show me.

See post above.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

See post above.

But the outcome is the same.
Don't you see that.
Nothing in John 10 agrees with anything you say.
John 10:16; they too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
It's all the same, they go together, and they all disagree with your interpretation of John 15.
You made the claim about what John 15 means.
You are the one that needs to reconcile it with John 10.

 

[JLB]

But the outcome is the same.
Don't you see that.
Nothing in John 10 agrees with anything you say.
John 10:16; they too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
It's all the same, they go together, and they all disagree with your interpretation of John 15.
You made the claim about what John 15 means.
You are the one that needs to reconcile it with John 10.

Who are the "other sheep", Jesus refers to, if "sheep" in verse 27 refers to all believers?

John 10:27 and the term My sheep, is a reference to His disciples, who heard His Voice and followed Him.

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd...

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

These disciples of His followed Him throughout the land of Israel, wherever He went.

You have taken this verse, out of it's context, and have tried to apply it to everyone.


In addition, by saying "other sheep", it is clear that the sheep Jesus referred to in verse 27, were His disciples.

If you think that "sheep" in verse 27 refers to all believers, then who are the "other" sheep He refers to?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I am saying that comparing angels to humans is no different than trying to compare apples to oranges.

Are angels "sons of God"?

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Why don't you write out the scripture, so everyone can see what you are referring to, and the context.

So, you believe that ONLY those sheep who keep following Him will keep having eternal life. So, please prove that from the grammar. I submit that you can't do that.

How about backing up in that context to 10:7-9
"7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

In v.7 Jesus is the "door" of the sheep. He obviously means that heaven is entered only through Him, which is exactly what He said in John 14:6 - "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

v.9 tells us how one is saved: by "entering through Me". The Greek word for "enters" is in the aorist tense, which means "in a point in time". The loss of salvation view only focuses on the present tense, and abuses it by claiming that one must "continue to believe in order to continue to be saved". But we see from v.9 that one only has to enter in a point in time, not continuously in order to be saved. So the Greek grammar refutes your view.

And those who have entered through Him in a point in time ARE SAVED. We know from the entire book of John that those who have believed HAVE eternal life. So 10:28 doesn't support your view but the fact that those who have "entered through Him and are saved" WILL NEVER PERISH.

You have not provided any evidence that my view does not line up with Scripture.

You have taken this verse, out of it's context, and have tried to apply it to everyone.

I've shown the whole context, which refutes your views.

In addition, by saying "other sheep", it is clear that the sheep Jesus referred to in verse 27, were His disciples.

If you think that "sheep" in verse 27 refers to all believers, then who are the "other" sheep He refers to?

I will explain it once again. The "other sheep" are Gentiles believers. Remember that Jews considered Gentiles as much lower than themselves, not worthy to even eat with them (Gal 2:12).

Now, I've answered your questions about verses. Please return the favor about these by explaining what they do teach, since you don't believe they teach eternal security.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation or have their eternal life removed, taken away, or revoked.

 

[FreeGrace]

Are angels "sons of God"?
JLB

Not any way in the same sense as humans BECOME sons of God. I really don't understand why you persist in trying to compare apples to oranges. It makes no sense to do so.

Do angels BECOME sons of God in some way? If you can prove that from Scripture, you'd have a point. But as it stands, you don't.

 

[WIP]

I'm getting concerned about this thread taking a dump. Please remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, let's avoid the "My God, your God" arguments. There is but one and only one God.

Thank you.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I'm getting concerned about this thread taking a dump. Please remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, let's avoid the "My God, your God" arguments. There is but one and only one God.

Thank you.

Yes sir, I say throw the thread in the trash heap.
I starting to get aggravated.

 

[JLB]

So, you believe that ONLY those sheep who keep following Him will keep having eternal life. So, please prove that from the grammar. I submit that you can't do that.

How about backing up in that context to 10:7-9
"7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 “All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

In v.7 Jesus is the "door" of the sheep. He obviously means that heaven is entered only through Him, which is exactly what He said in John 14:6 - "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

v.9 tells us how one is saved: by "entering through Me". The Greek word for "enters" is in the aorist tense, which means "in a point in time". The loss of salvation view only focuses on the present tense, and abuses it by claiming that one must "continue to believe in order to continue to be saved". But we see from v.9 that one only has to enter in a point in time, not continuously in order to be saved. So the Greek grammar refutes your view.

And those who have entered through Him in a point in time ARE SAVED. We know from the entire book of John that those who have believed HAVE eternal life. So 10:28 doesn't support your view but the fact that those who have "entered through Him and are saved" WILL NEVER PERISH.

You have not provided any evidence that my view does not line up with Scripture.


I've shown the whole context, which refutes your views.


I will explain it once again. The "other sheep" are Gentiles believers. Remember that Jews considered Gentiles as much lower than themselves, not worthy to even eat with them (Gal 2:12).

Now, I've answered your questions about verses. Please return the favor about these by explaining what they do teach, since you don't believe they teach eternal security.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Fifth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation or have their eternal life removed, taken away, or revoked.

Not even close.

John 10 is a reference to His disciples that followed Him while He was on earth.

Who are the other sheep, if the sheep in verse 27 means all believers?

Case closed.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Not any way in the same sense as humans BECOME sons of God. I really don't understand why you persist in trying to compare apples to oranges. It makes no sense to do so.

Do angels BECOME sons of God in some way? If you can prove that from Scripture, you'd have a point. But as it stands, you don't.

Are angels sons of God?

Simple question.

God is their Father.

You brought the subject by claiming we can not lose who our parents are!

Now this has come back to refute the very claim you tried to make, since angels, being God's sons were cast into hell. 2


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Not even close.

John 10 is a reference to His disciples that followed Him while He was on earth.

I've shown otherwise. Begin at v.9 about who gets saved; those who "enter through Me". And the Greek word for "enter" is in the aorist tense. One is NOT required to keep entering through Him to be saved, as your view seems to preach.

Who are the other sheep, if the sheep in verse 27 means all believers?

It's quite simple. First, Jesus noted who He would die for: THE sheep. That would refer to all of humanity. Then, He distinguished between "MY sheep", "other sheep of MINE", and "those not of MY sheep".

The "other sheep" are also His. So both are believers, Jews and Gentiles. Those that were "not of MY sheep" are unbelievers.

Case closed.
JLB

Only if you can refute what I've posted and show how my view is incorrect.

 

[Edward]

If we're so sealed from the moment that we pray and are born again, then why are we called to be overcomers?

Rev 2:7, 17, 26
1 John 5:5
Rev 3:5

 

[FreeGrace]

Are angels sons of God?

Yes. Did they BECOME sons of God the way humans did? NO.

Simple question.

And a simple answer.

God is their Father.

Where does the Bible say that? If you can't provide any evidence from Scripture other than this assumption, then there is no reason to accept your claim.

We KNOW how humans become children of God from Scripture:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" Jn 1:12
"For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:26

Now, if you can show from Scripture that angels are called sons of God by the SAME WAY as humans are, then you'd have a point. Otherwise, you don't.

You brought the subject by claiming we can not lose who our parents are!

I sure did. And you have NOT shown that angels have been born again by God. Or that God is their Father.

Now this has come back to refute the very claim you tried to make, since angels, being God's sons were cast into hell. 2JLB

I'm laughing as well. You haven't proven anything.