Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[smaller]

That's just weird.

What's weird are batches of believers trying to destroy each others in the name of God.

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

 

[smaller]

Apparently you didn't understand it the first time so I repeated it for your benefit.
No extra charge.
And, of course, you are free to ignore it again.

We've covered this ground prior as well. How people read the scriptures does vary. A heart filled with Grace CAN find and enter into more Grace.

A heart filled with self justifications, false judgments, hypocrisy and lies will find what they think they see, and will be hardened into it even more.

That's exactly how scriptures work. Heb. 4:12

Works Perfectly.

 

[Edward]

What's weird are batches of believers trying to destroy each others in the name of God.

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Let me see if I got this right...I indicate that I don't believe in OSAS, so you say I'm on here trying to destroy people....

And apparently, I'm not walking in love because I don't believe what you do?

Can you hear what you're saying?

 

[smaller]

Let me see if I got this right...I indicate that I don't believe in OSAS, so you say I'm on here trying to destroy people....

You certainly pose that in your mind. Thankfully that decision isn't in your hands.

And apparently, I'm not walking in love because I don't believe what you do?

Can you hear what you're saying?

I hear double talk, claiming love, but holding back with the possibility of eternal torture to believers. Nuthin but double talk out of both sides of mouth.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Who wants to apply their standards to PAUL?

Any takers?

 

[Edward]

You certainly pose that in your mind. Thankfully that decision isn't in your hands.



I hear double talk, claiming love, but holding back with the possibility of eternal torture to believers. Nuthin but double talk out of both sides of mouth.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Who wants to apply their standards to PAUL?

Any takers?

You sound pretty angry today. Is it beyond you to discuss something without getting emotional and tossing around slurs?

You're sowing discord, in case you hadn't noticed. Here's a scripture for that;
Proverbs 6:16-19

Having a discussion should be possible without being arrogant about it...

 

[WIP]

See, already this thread is rolling downhill into the pit. This isn't about challenging each other to a duel. It's about setting aside our own personal pride and self-righteousness and learning and growing in faith. I don't see this one continuing too much longer unless attitudes are checked at the door.

 

[smaller]

You sound pretty angry today. Is it beyond you to discuss something without getting emotional and tossing around slurs?

You're sowing discord, in case you hadn't noticed. Here's a scripture for that;
Proverbs 6:16-19

Having a discussion should be possible without being arrogant about it...

I have no idea how you could derive the above when I have said repeatedly that I see anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them as SAVED.

Anyone who sees a threat in that is looking for it on their own, cause it's not from me.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Let me see if I got this right...I indicate that I don't believe in OSAS, so you say I'm on here trying to destroy people....

And apparently, I'm not walking in love because I don't believe what you do?

Can you hear what you're saying?

I don't believe you Edward.
I think I know you well enough to say that you are truly a born again Christian.
And as such, I don't think you could look at yourself in the mirror and say, "Today is the day I'm going to walk away from Jesus and never come back".
I think you would laugh at yourself and say, "Now I know I could never do that".
And with that I say you are OSAS just like the rest of us.

 

[Edward]

I have no idea how you could derive the above when I have said repeatedly that I see anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them as SAVED.

Anyone who sees a threat in that is looking for it on their own, cause it's not from me.

What threat? I said you sound angry, and a little arrogant. Who exactly do you see on here, trying to destroy people in the name of God?

The topic is, OSAS-yes or no? I believe that we could walk away from the Lord or otherwise lose our salvation for a few reasons. Some have been noted already, and I could add this scripture in support of it.

Psalms 69:28
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous./

He's praying about his enemies, but ponder the implication...to be blotted out, it had to be in there aforehand. (and this in OT days, where everyone did not have the H.S.)...there were some very evil people around then. But their names would have had to be in the book of life at some point, soo, what? Perhaps we are all in the BoL since birth? Born unto life? And at some point beyond the age of accountability...one is blotted out & condemned, or...born of the Spirit and redeemed?

It could be. I know one thing for sure, the verse indicates that names can be blotted out of the BoL.

 

[Edward]

I don't believe you Edward.
I think I know you well enough to say that you are truly a born again Christian.
And as such, I don't think you could look at yourself in the mirror and say, "Today is the day I'm going to walk away from Jesus and never come back".
I think you would laugh at yourself and say, "Now I know I could never do that".
And with that I say you are OSAS just like the rest of us.

No, I wouldn't do that. Quite a few pastors have though. To do that would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit I believe, and if one were to die in the flesh before repenting of it...would be blotted out and condemned.

 

[JLB]

We've covered this ground prior as well. How people read the scriptures does vary. A heart filled with Grace CAN find and enter into more Grace.

A heart filled with self justifications, false judgments, hypocrisy and lies will find what they think they see, and will be hardened into it even more.

That's exactly how scriptures work. Heb. 4:12

Works Perfectly.

A heart filled with deception can become more and more deceived as it devises a twisted view ot the truth.


JLB

 

[smaller]

What threat? I said you sound angry, and a little arrogant. Who exactly do you see on here, trying to destroy people in the name of God?

Angry? I'm quite thrilled and happy to see that everyone who calls upon Jesus to save them is saved.

Where is the anger in that? Where is the "sowing discord" in that?

Clearly it's not. Perhaps a more interesting question is, with this sight, could I really belong to "your church?"

I don't care if no one else sees it. Said as much earlier that if believers want to see otherwise not much I can do about it anyway. I have a command that I consider it a joy to follow:

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

No, I wouldn't do that. Quite a few pastors have though. To do that would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit I believe, and if one were to die in the flesh before repenting of it...would be blotted out and condemned.

Then I guess it's true.
You have no idea if you'll make it to heaven or not.
That's how it is for the Muslims too.
Good luck.

 

[Jim Parker]

You have no idea if you'll make it to heaven or not.
That's how it is for the Muslims too.

From what I understand, if your good works outweigh your evil works, you get to go to paradise which, from descriptions I've read, is a really pleasant location where true believers spend eternity participating in what seems to be described as a drunken orgy. (Which might appeal to a teenager for about a week.)
See: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3662/islamic-paradise

Good luck.

I don't think we need luck, just patience and persistence.
Rom 2:6-7 (RSV) For he (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (HIyah! )
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result.
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. (BYE! )

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

From what I understand, if your good works outweigh your evil works, you get to go to paradise which, from descriptions I've read, is a really pleasant location where true believers spend eternity participating in what seems to be described as a drunken orgy. (Which might appeal to a teenager for about a week.)
See: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3662/islamic-paradise

I don't think we need luck, just patience and persistence.
Rom 2:6-7 (RSV) For he (God) will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (HIyah! )
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result.
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your day. (BYE! )

I don't need luck.
Maybe others do.

 

[GodsGrace]

We've covered this ground prior as well. How people read the scriptures does vary. A heart filled with Grace CAN find and enter into more Grace.

A heart filled with self justifications, false judgments, hypocrisy and lies will find what they think they see, and will be hardened into it even more.

That's exactly how scriptures work. Heb. 4:12

Works Perfectly.

Smaller,
Since I believe one can lose salvation, I guess I can assume that there is no grace in my heart. It's just filled with all that other stuff you post above. But I'm happy to hear you believe I'm saved. Whew! I was worried there for a moment.

Hebrews 4:12 The Word of God is living and active.

I was preparing a lesson for Holy Week. I do this in chronological order. One morning Jesus and his apostles were going from Mary and Matha's house down to Jerusalem. (maybe on Monday). On the way there Jesus saw a fig tree in the distance and thought there would be some good fruit to eat. But there wasn't so Jesus cursed the fig tree and it withered and died. Mathew 21:18-19

Of course the fig tree represented Israel, but it can also symbolize the spiritual condition of a person. A person can be born again and be a believer in Jesus, but Jesus said that a tree will be know by its fruit.

And in James 5:9-11 we read that we must have patience and persevere as Job persevered and that those are the ones who will be blessed.

The O. T. also speaks of being cut off. Hosea 9:16. The concept of being cut-off is throughout scripture. If the writers wrote this, it must be important.

Jesus speaks of branches being cut off if they do not bear fruit. John 15:1-2 He also says that we are to remain in Him. John 15:4 And in John 15:6 Jesus tells the apostles that if anyone does NOT remain in Him, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers, is picked up, and thrown into the fire.

Instead of posting what you feel is countering scripture, could you tell me how you understand the above?
It seems really clear to me.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
Since I believe one can lose salvation, I guess I can assume that there is no grace in my heart. It's just filled with all that other stuff you post above. But I'm happy to hear you believe I'm saved. Whew! I was worried there for a moment.

Part of my sights in these matters come from participation in evangelical crusades of various sorts where altar calls were involved and people, moved to believe Jesus as their Savior, came forward and made their confession of belief. It was standard practice to remind them after prayer that Satan would attempt to steal the moment and blind them to our Savior, and that they should remember, firmly, their confession and belief in Jesus as their Savior.

Fairly simple stuff. Except when they get back to fellowships that teach them the opposite.

Hebrews 4:12 The Word of God is living and active.

I was preparing a lesson for Holy Week. I do this in chronological order. One morning Jesus and his apostles were going from Mary and Matha's house down to Jerusalem. (maybe on Monday). On the way there Jesus saw a fig tree in the distance and thought there would be some good fruit to eat. But there wasn't so Jesus cursed the fig tree and it withered and died. Mathew 21:18-19

Of course the fig tree represented Israel, but it can also symbolize the spiritual condition of a person. A person can be born again and be a believer in Jesus, but Jesus said that a tree will be know by its fruit.

And in James 5:9-11 we read that we must have patience and persevere as Job persevered and that those are the ones who will be blessed.

The O. T. also speaks of being cut off. Hosea 9:16. The concept of being cut-off is throughout scripture. If the writers wrote this, it must be important.

No one escapes God, period. Even Israel, blinded in unbelief, did NOT and does NOT escape God. It's not even possible. When believers do come under judgment, and they do, assuredly, judgements of chastisment, judgments of tribulations, it is always to matters of our own flesh. None of this equates to loss of salvation. EXCEPT in the minds of people reading about judgments.

I've used these facts before on this subject, how Moses did not enter the promised land because of unbelief. He, like everyone who came out of Egypt over the age of 20, were destroyed in the desert because of unbelief, save for 2 people. Even after seeing, with their own eyes, all the miracles that God did in their presence. They still DIED because of unbelief. Unbelief is a powerful force.

Does this mean Moses or Aaron or any of them are sentenced to the LoF? That is just an unfortunate conclusion for any who see that way. Moses was seen again, with Jesus, AFTER his death. So this shows that even unbelief will NOT cause a failure of salvation. Paul speaks to the identical matter in Romans 11:25-31, showing that even enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel, that they ALL shall be saved. And in that chapter Paul tells us "how" they were blinded and why they were blinded, that it was in our behalves. It's just hard for us to think that an entire nation of people except for a remnant were blinded BY GOD for US.

Does that mean God abandoned them? Never! Paul specifically forbids this sight in Romans 11. And demands we show them what? Judgment in eternal hell? Uh, no. We are to show them GODS MERCY, as we have so "obtained." Provided we remain in what? Gods destruction? Again, uh no. Provided we remain in Gods GOODNESS. Romans 11:22.

People who leave Gods GOODNESS have themselves been blinded. Not seeing the MERCY of God towards sinners. Do I think believers who leave GODS GOODNESS will be eternally torched for this? Never. I believe in Gods GOODNESS and MERCY toward sinners, particularly believing sinners. The last thing I would think to do is potentially DAMN THEM.

Instead of posting what you feel is countering scripture, could you tell me how you understand the above?
It seems really clear to me.

Wondering

Judgments are easy to find for ourselves when we observe our own flesh, with sin dwelling therein and evil present within us all. Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17 shows us that it is our own flesh that is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. But we never care to observe these hard facts for our own flesh, our NEED for the change of the VILE body of flesh, UNDERSTANDING that these very conditions are the BASIS on which we NEED Gods Mercy in Christ.

Instead we get stingy about Grace. We demand the flesh to be something other than what it is. We ignore the facts of our own conditions in the flesh. And we turn into haters of each other, rather than falling headlong into HIS LOVE, understanding our state, we try VAINLY to "dress the pig of our own VILE FLESH up" and fail to moving past that to actually love one another and move ON toward our HOPE in Him, which is to CHANGE this VILE BODY. Phil. 3:21. Rather than RUNNING AWAY from Judgments, we are to take our own VILE FLESH headlong into HIS JUDGMENTS in anticipation of CHANGE to come. That is the promise of the Gospel.

CHANGE.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Yes, God in Christ does love and save sinners. No one will earn their way past the Pearly Gates. And no believer will avoid His Clutches, even by drawing back or refusing to hear Him. And yes, we all bear our own burden in the flesh called sin dwelling in it and evil present within us, in our own conscience.

Personally, I LOOK FORWARD to ditching these conditions of my own VILE FLESH. Don't you? I know what is on the horizon.

CHANGE.

Psalm 143
1 Hear my prayer, O Lord, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness.
2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
3 For the enemy hath persecuted my soul;

We might even observe the DIVINE TOOLS that God brings for DESTRUCTION and CHANGE.

Judgment, forgiveness, faith, MERCY and HIS LOVE. These are the Divine instruments of DESTRUCTION to all that is contrary.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Smaller,
Since I believe one can lose salvation, I guess I can assume that there is no grace in my heart. It's just filled with all that other stuff you post above. But I'm happy to hear you believe I'm saved. Whew! I was worried there for a moment.

Hebrews 4:12 The Word of God is living and active.

I was preparing a lesson for Holy Week. I do this in chronological order. One morning Jesus and his apostles were going from Mary and Matha's house down to Jerusalem. (maybe on Monday). On the way there Jesus saw a fig tree in the distance and thought there would be some good fruit to eat. But there wasn't so Jesus cursed the fig tree and it withered and died. Mathew 21:18-19

Of course the fig tree represented Israel, but it can also symbolize the spiritual condition of a person. A person can be born again and be a believer in Jesus, but Jesus said that a tree will be know by its fruit.

And in James 5:9-11 we read that we must have patience and persevere as Job persevered and that those are the ones who will be blessed.

The O. T. also speaks of being cut off. Hosea 9:16. The concept of being cut-off is throughout scripture. If the writers wrote this, it must be important.

Jesus speaks of branches being cut off if they do not bear fruit. John 15:1-2 He also says that we are to remain in Him. John 15:4 And in John 15:6 Jesus tells the apostles that if anyone does NOT remain in Him, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers, is picked up, and thrown into the fire.

Instead of posting what you feel is countering scripture, could you tell me how you understand the above?
It seems really clear to me.

Wondering

2 Thessalonians 2:10b;
"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved".
This is also how it was in Hosea Chapter 9 for Ephraim.

 

[GodsGrace]

Part of my sights in these matters come from participation in evangelical crusades of various sorts where altar calls were involved and people, moved to believe Jesus as their Savior, came forward and made their confession of belief. It was standard practice to remind them after prayer that Satan would attempt to steal the moment and blind them to our Savior, and that they should remember, firmly, their confession and belief in Jesus as their Savior.

Fairly simple stuff. Except when they get back to fellowships that teach them the opposite.


No one escapes God, period. Even Israel, blinded in unbelief, did NOT and does NOT escape God. It's not even possible. When believers do come under judgment, and they do, assuredly, judgements of chastisment, judgments of tribulations, it is always to matters of our own flesh. None of this equates to loss of salvation. EXCEPT in the minds of people reading about judgments.

I've used these facts before on this subject, how Moses did not enter the promised land because of unbelief. He, like everyone who came out of Egypt over the age of 20, were destroyed in the desert because of unbelief, save for 2 people. Even after seeing, with their own eyes, all the miracles that God did in their presence. They still DIED because of unbelief. Unbelief is a powerful force.

Does this mean Moses or Aaron or any of them are sentenced to the LoF? That is just an unfortunate conclusion for any who see that way. Moses was seen again, with Jesus, AFTER his death. So this shows that even unbelief will NOT cause a failure of salvation. Paul speaks to the identical matter in Romans 11:25-31, showing that even enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel, that they ALL shall be saved. And in that chapter Paul tells us "how" they were blinded and why they were blinded, that it was in our behalves. It's just hard for us to think that an entire nation of people except for a remnant were blinded BY GOD for US.

Does that mean God abandoned them? Never! Paul specifically forbids this sight in Romans 11. And demands we show them what? Judgment in eternal hell? Uh, no. We are to show them GODS MERCY, as we have so "obtained." Provided we remain in what? Gods destruction? Again, uh no. Provided we remain in Gods GOODNESS. Romans 11:22.

People who leave Gods GOODNESS have themselves been blinded. Not seeing the MERCY of God towards sinners. Do I think believers who leave GODS GOODNESS will be eternally torched for this? Never. I believe in Gods GOODNESS and MERCY toward sinners, particularly believing sinners. The last thing I would think to do is potentially DAMN THEM.


Judgments are easy to find for ourselves when we observe our own flesh, with sin dwelling therein and evil present within us all. Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17 shows us that it is our own flesh that is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. But we never care to observe these hard facts for our own flesh, our NEED for the change of the VILE body of flesh, UNDERSTANDING that these very conditions are the BASIS on which we NEED Gods Mercy in Christ.

Instead we get stingy about Grace. We demand the flesh to be something other than what it is. We ignore the facts of our own conditions in the flesh. And we turn into haters of each other, rather than falling headlong into HIS LOVE, understanding our state, we try VAINLY to "dress the pig of our own VILE FLESH up" and fail to moving past that to actually love one another and move ON toward our HOPE in Him, which is to CHANGE this VILE BODY. Phil. 3:21. Rather than RUNNING AWAY from Judgments, we are to take our own VILE FLESH headlong into HIS JUDGMENTS in anticipation of CHANGE to come. That is the promise of the Gospel.

CHANGE.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Yes, God in Christ does love and save sinners. No one will earn their way past the Pearly Gates. And no believer will avoid His Clutches, even by drawing back or refusing to hear Him. And yes, we all bear our own burden in the flesh called sin dwelling in it and evil present within us, in our own conscience.

Personally, I LOOK FORWARD to ditching these conditions of my own VILE FLESH. Don't you? I know what is on the horizon.

CHANGE.

Psalm 143
1 Hear my prayer, O Lord, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness.
2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
3 For the enemy hath persecuted my soul;

We might even observe the DIVINE TOOLS that God brings for DESTRUCTION and CHANGE.

Judgment, forgiveness, faith, MERCY and HIS LOVE. These are the Divine instruments of DESTRUCTION to all that is contrary.

You know me well enough to know I'm not going to respond to each paragraph of yours.

On Saturday evening I was at a service where an altar call was made. For the gift of tongues. Just when many were going up, a vase of flowers fell and also a musical instrument. The pastor made a remark seconding the idea in your first paragraph: Satan attempts to steal the moment and blind them to our savior and those called should stand FIRM in their confession and belief in Jesus our Savior.

Okay. So?
Why do you even say this?
Do you think those on my side of the aisle don't know this?
Why do you go on in your post to speak as if all I think about is judgement? And conditions?
What is the "opposite" that new Christians are taught after they leave the altar call? I know you mean "works." This is bad? James 2.
Does my side of the aisle make sounds like the pharisees did in Jesus' day?
You're right in saying God abandons no one. But can we not abandon Him?
If we can't abandon Him, it means we have no free will. But, of course, you don't think we do anyway so we won't go there. But most Christians do adhere to the free-will theory - so how is that reconciled with the idea that one CANNOT decide to abandon God? I still haven't had an answer to this. If I have free will, shouldn't that allow me to abandon Him if I so wish?

I love John 3:16 It covers so much theology. I once did a very nice lesson on it.
"that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him"
What if I stop believing - what if I decide I've had enough.
If God forces us to stay Smaller, it means we're those little proverbial robots or puppets. Think about that.
The bible is not just a bunch of verses to be pulled out like we do on these threads as proof scripture, it's a complete concept - the concept flows smoothly starting from Genesis 1. It was written in the time frame of about 1,500 years by many different writers and yet it sounds like one continuous, homogeneous story.

The story is about God's relationship to man. God reaches down to us and we respond, or we don't.
In every story I read there is life and there is death. Spiritual. God exhorts us to choose Him, to stay close to Him, to not heed the evil one. Ultimately we will go with the one whom we have served. If we're not serving God, we're serving the other one. No middle ground. I place before you this day life and prosperity, death and adversity. Choose this day whom you will serve. Choice, choice, choice. It's a choice. If one makes a choice, it requires decision making, coming to an end result. If I can decide FOR, I can change my mind and decide AGAINST. I can't think of anything which requires a choice, that cannot be changed.

I doubt Moses is in sheol, hades, gehenna or hell, whatever that might be (for the reason you stated) but if God could make him die because he struck a rock instead of speaking to it, imagine what God will do to those who abandon His Son. He seems to be a very jealous God. Unless the God of the N.T. is different from the God in the O.T.

We're here to discuss and we could be enlightened even if we do not come to agree with each other on some doctrine - but I fail to understand why it's necessary for those of your persuasion to assume that I need to work for my salvation and that I'm a judgmental person and that I'm not secure in my salvation. I fail to see how you come to this conclusion. I feel I'm very ignorant in this regard.

It would be interesting to know.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]