Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[GodsGrace]

Concerning your post 15....And no one will snatch them out of my hand... My Father is greater than all...
No one, or no force, can snatch us out of God's hand unless it is our will. Satan can try many ways to snatch us out of God's hand, but it's up to our will to remain safe with the Holy Spirit. Christ went to the cross so that we may be safe in God's hands - we just need to trust in Jesus' redeeming sacrifice. God is stronger than any force trying to snatch us away.

If it is "our will" ...something changed our mind. That which changed our mind is a snatching from Jesus' hand....which is impossible.

Cygnus,
I thank you for answering your own question up above.
I've highlighted and underlined the answer to your question about how no one can snatch us out of Jesus' hand.

You say:
No one, or no force, can snatch us out of God's hand UNLESS IT IS OUR WILL.
Satan can try many ways to snatch us out of God's hand, but it's UP TO OUR WILL to REMAIN safe with the Holy Spirit.

So you see: You do understand what the word "snatch" means. It's an action that SOMEONE or SOMETHING ELSE takes. So, you're correct, no ONE or no THING (principalities, powers) can snatch us out of Jesus' hands.

UNLESS IT IS OUR WILL.
And here you've hit the nail on the head. If IT IS OUR WILL, to be snatched, THEN it CAN happen.

And, again, you correctly say that IT'S UP TO OUR WILL to REMAIN safe with the Holy Spirit.

Correct again. It's a matter of the will. I WILL to remain safe in Jesus' hands.
You see, Cygnus, when we WILL something, it means we're DECIDING to do something.
If we can decide to do something it means there's a choice - if there's a choice to be made it means we could reverse and decide not to continue in doing that something.

It's a little like a friendship. There may even be some trouble there, as there is in any relationship. But I WILL ro remain with my friend. As long as I WILL it, I choose to remain in that friendship.

If one day I walk out and I no longer WILL to be in the friendship, then it will end.
So, you see, no one or no thing snatched me out of the friendship, I WILLED to end it and CHOSE to.

It must be our WILL to remain in a relationship. WE can end that relationship when the WILL is no longer there.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

deleted - duplicate

 

[GodsGrace]

Eugene said: ↑
Jim, you might want to investigate the purpose of staying the course; is it to be, or remain saved?

Eugene,
Such misunderstandings between us.
Jim Parker could answer for himself, he's far better at this than I am --
I'd just like to say, regarding your above question to Jim Parker:

He's clearly stating that the man in Ezekiel 18:24 is righteous (right with God) and saved.

So the answer to your question would necessarily have to be to REMAIN saved.
If a person is on a course, he's already saved.
How I explain it is that if a person has CHOSEN to be on God's course, he may wander a bit, he may fall and get back up, but he will still be on God's course.

If he REPENTS and inverts his direction and goes back toward the evil one, then he has CHANGED his course and can no longer be in the saving arms of Jesus because he has now chosen to be on the course of the evil one.

Maybe the idea of repenting can clarify. Repent: To CHANGE direction - to go the other way.

I guess you could repent FOR God and you could repent AGAINST God.

I'll post Hebrews 3:12
Of course, biblically repent refers always to repenting FOR God and turning to HIS direction.
But this means we could always turn BACK again in the other direction.

Wondering
P.S. John 5:24
Jim Parker is far too intellectual.
I only notice in this verse that Jesus is using the present tense.
Whoever HEARS my word
and BELIEVES Him who sent Me
has eternal life.
Jesus didn't say HEARD or BELIEVED.
Jesus means NOW, at this moment and at this time.

 

[GodsGrace]

If the sheep can walk away..they were snatched from Jesus' hand.

You're post seems to be writing betwen the lines.

If I can WALK AWAY from the line at a movie theater
It DOESN'T mean
I was SNATCHED away.

Someone didn't grab me and snatch me away
I voluntarily WALKED AWAY, of my own free will.

Is this a Christian Forum or an English Forum?

Wondering

 

[Malachi]

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

What relevance does this Scripture have to the matter at hand? If anything it support the Bible truth that those who are saved go on to maturity and ultimately perfection. Paul is telling us that he has not reached the pinnacle of Christian perfection (even though from our perspective he was almost there). That implies that his salvation was always secure.

 

[GodsGrace]

FOR EUGENE

Re: John 5:24
Jim Parker is far too intellectual.
I only notice in this verse that Jesus is using the present tense.
Whoever HEARS my word
and BELIEVES Him who sent Me
has eternal life.
Jesus didn't say HEARD or BELIEVED.
Jesus means NOW, at this moment and at this current point in time.

Wondering
In Greek it's:
He who is HEARING
He who is BELIEVING

 

[GodsGrace]

True. The will of exactly no one will vaunt itself over God in Christ, even if said mind blindly thinks it possible.

Which to me is a rather absurd sight from believers. I expect Gods Will is expressed sufficiently in Christ to know His Eternal Values, which are the only values that will survive eternity.

I may consider such as the pitiful notions of successful individual rebellion. It ain't happenin.

We already know that our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. So it's not unusual for the flesh to come up with all sorts of ideas contrary to Gods Spirit. Doesn't mean any of them are actually legit.

Do you think the freewill of any flesh exists in the grave? In the after life? Again, I'd say no. No persons imperfections will outlast God, ever. But that is what freewill postures. That resistance to God is eternal. Again, a very fleshly notion.

Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

What about it? Salvation isn't based on "your faithfulness" to perform anyway. That was never in the cards of salvation. Put salvation into the hands of people with sin dwelling in their flesh and evil present with them all? That again is just bizarre. It would be irresponsible for God to mishandle such a matter that way.

We share a call. We share what He Has and retains in His Own Hands. We are assuredly NOT our own Saviors.

There is NO escape from God. No such place exists.

Why would I think being "in Him" as being any kind of robot or puppet? I have nothing to add to God nor do I desire whatever it is I may think I have, as if I could "keep it" for eternity. I'd say people who think they have anything to add to God or keep from him forever are the robots and puppets. It's just a ridiculous notion.

And yet how we read it will vary because factually, ever reader is DIFFERENT. There are no two grains of wheat the same, no two raindrops the same, and no 2 believers the same. This should show us we are all quite firmly planted into 'individual SUBJECTIVITY.'

Nah. The Word is about The Word. Every line of it speaks about HIM.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Everyone else is a "subjective observer."

I expect there to be ZERO of me when this life is over.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Smaller, what does the life to come have to do with anything I've said?
I'm looking forward to it too.
I also don't understand what John 5:39 has to do with any of this. Jesus is speaking to His Messianic mission and how the scriptures speak to Him and His salvific work. This has nothing to do with God's relationship to man? Okay.

And HOW we read the scriptures will vary? So you're a SOLO scriptura person? You sit at home and read the bible and make up your own interpretation? You must have studied years for this, I hope. OR do you just let the Holy Spirit guide you? Well, if the Holy Spirit is guiding YOU and ME, how come we come up with different interpretations? The Holy Spirit is lacking? Maybe we need a church to actually help us understand scripture?
And I don't like the word SUBJECTIVITY. God is not subjective about anything.

Re robots and puppets. If you don't understand how we would be puppets and/or robots UNLESS we have free will - I'm not going to attempt to explain it to you because I know you DON'T WANT to understand this because it would go against your idea that we have no free will. I'll just say for some that might be reading along and don't know either you nor me that if we DON'T have free will and are unable to make choices, it means that someone is making choices for us so we'd be little puppets doing whatever that "person" wants us to do.

Re salvation and faithfulness. Too elementary - I'm not going there. If we can't even agree on this or understand each other on this... (for those reading along - salvation does not depend on our performance - we cannot save oursleves).

Question: What are Christ's eternal values?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

What a dance to seemingly support your religion of works. Yeah I know what "Everlasting means, but . . .

Eugene,
Your last sentence in the above post is what I'm interested in.

Iv'e found that people on your side of the aisle believe people on my side of the aisle believe in a "religion of works."

I've asked others this with no reply. WHY do you think this?
Why do you believe that if I think I can lose my salvation (through my own will) it means that I have to "work" to keep it?

I've attended two totally different churches and both taught possible loss of salvation. I found out about OSAS a few years ago and have done my best to study it and I come to the conclusion that is has to be that loss is possible because of the issue of free will which I've brought up many times. Calvin eliminates free will. If so, we are in dire straits, left to the hands of a mischievous God who will determine who is to go to heaven and who is to go to hell. This is unacceptable to me and I would not want to serve such a God.

Leaving aside everything else, would you please explain why you think I believe I have to work for my continued salvation. If I trusted in Jesus to save me, can't I trust in Him to continue to save me as long as I so will it?

Wondering

 

[MarkT]

Smaller, what does the life to come have to do with anything I've said?
I'm looking forward to it too.
I also don't understand what John 5:39 has to do with any of this. Jesus is speaking to His Messianic mission and how the scriptures speak to Him and His salvific work. This has nothing to do with God's relationship to man? Okay.

And HOW we read the scriptures will vary? So you're a SOLO scriptura person? You sit at home and read the bible and make up your own interpretation? You must have studied years for this, I hope. OR do you just let the Holy Spirit guide you? Well, if the Holy Spirit is guiding YOU and ME, how come we come up with different interpretations? The Holy Spirit is lacking? Maybe we need a church to actually help us understand scripture?
And I don't like the word SUBJECTIVITY. God is not subjective about anything.

Re robots and puppets. If you don't understand how we would be puppets and/or robots UNLESS we have free will - I'm not going to attempt to explain it to you because I know you DON'T WANT to understand this because it would go against your idea that we have no free will. I'll just say for some that might be reading along and don't know either you nor me that if we DON'T have free will and are unable to make choices, it means that someone is making choices for us so we'd be little puppets doing whatever that "person" wants us to do.

Re salvation and faithfulness. Too elementary - I'm not going there. If we can't even agree on this or understand each other on this... (for those reading along - salvation does not depend on our performance - we cannot save oursleves).

Question: What are Christ's eternal values?

Wondering

There's a difference between a servant and a puppet Wondering. A servant knows his master. A puppet doesn't know anything.

John 5:19
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Was Jesus a puppet or a servant? In fact the puppet is the one who knows the least.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy. Romans 9:15-16

God declares it and it comes to pass.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Eugene,
Your last sentence in the above post is what I'm interested in.

Iv'e found that people on your side of the aisle believe people on my side of the aisle believe in a "religion of works."

I've asked others this with no reply. WHY do you think this?
Why do you believe that if I think I can lose my salvation (through my own will) it means that I have to "work" to keep it?

I've attended two totally different churches and both taught possible loss of salvation. I found out about OSAS a few years ago and have done my best to study it and I come to the conclusion that is has to be that loss is possible because of the issue of free will which I've brought up many times. Calvin eliminates free will. If so, we are in dire straits, left to the hands of a mischievous God who will determine who is to go to heaven and who is to go to hell. This is unacceptable to me and I would not want to serve such a God.

Leaving aside everything else, would you please explain why you think I believe I have to work for my continued salvation. If I trusted in Jesus to save me, can't I trust in Him to continue to save me as long as I so will it?

Wondering

Do you ever listen to me?
You cannot will yourself into salvation.
If you want it, you ask God for it and he gives it to you.
You have no power over God.
If He says it's yours forever, then it is.
Don't let the flesh interpret something else, causing you to think you can over rule God.
That little voice in your head saying, "yes, I can tell God I no longer want His gift, I will do that, I have free will".
No you can't do that, not if you're truly saved
You have to truly love God to get saved.
Could someone really walk away from God and say, "I just don't love you anymore".
Anyone who knows and loves God would question that love.
And that's really where the line is drawn with OSAS.
If you are OSAS, you don't have to prove it to anyone, you know it, and God knows it, and your relationship with Him is built around it.
End of story.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you ever listen to me?
You cannot will yourself into salvation.
If you want it, you ask God for it and he gives it to you.
You have no power over God.
If He says it's yours forever, then it is.
Don't let the flesh interpret something else, causing you to think you can over rule God.
That little voice in your head saying, "yes, I can tell God I no longer want His gift, I will do that, I have free will".
No you can't do that, not if you're truly saved
You have to truly love God to get saved.
Could someone really walk away from God and say, "I just don't love you anymore".
Anyone who knows and loves God would question that love.
And that's really where the line is drawn with OSAS.
If you are OSAS, you don't have to prove it to anyone, you know it, and God knows it, and your relationship with Him is built around it.
End of story.

Rollo,
You must know that I've often said that it's not easy to leave Jesus once you know Him. In fact, it would be extremely difficult. I always refer to John 6:68. To Whom Shall We Go? Once we have tasted of the love of God and the strength He gives us when we need it - and how do those without God ever get along in life.

I agree with your last sentence:
If you are OSAS, you don't have to prove it to anyone, you know it, and God knows it, and your relationship with Him is built around it.
(remove "If you are OSAS)

Okay. But this does not mean that it's not POSSIBLE.

I do think that we're both saying the same thing:
I'm saying it's POSSIBLE to abandon God.
You're saying that if I DO, it means I was NEVER saved to begin with.

See? Even OSAS people believe God could be abandoned, only they explain it a different way than I do.
And why do I like my way better? WHO is to say who is saved and who is not?
So Calvinism tell me who is saved.
Then it tells me I have no matter in the choice to be saved.
It tells me God alone can condemn me to eternal hell fire.
It tells me I have no free will.

Rollo, it tells me too many things I CANNOT go along with if I'm reading the same bible you are!

I'm still waiting for someone, maybe Eugene?, to explain to me why he thinks I have to remain saved by my WORKS.

Wondering
p.s. I listen to you a lot.
But not on this...

 

[GodsGrace]

There's a difference between a servant and a puppet Wondering. A servant knows his master. A puppet doesn't know anything.

John 5:19
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Was Jesus a puppet or a servant? In fact the puppet is the one who knows the least.

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy. Romans 9:15-16

God declares it and it comes to pass.

Hi MartT
You say a servant knows his master, a puppet doesn't know anything.

That's my point.

Jesus was a servant. He served the will of The Father. Yahweh. To bridge the gap between God and man.
He was not a puppet and neither are we. Or do you think we are? Is that not what Calvinism teaches?

As far as Moses. Romans 9 is speaking to the nation of Israel and its salvation. Verse 7 is speaking about Abraham and Jesus clearly stated that they were not sons of God just because the Jews were descendant from Abraham. Galatians 3:7-9 and Mathew 3:9 and John 8:39
The saved will be saved by Jesus by faith, not because they are sons of Abraham.

Other than this, you're speaking to my favorite subject: Reconciling God's Providence or Sovereignty with our free will.

So it seems like you're saying that it's all up to God. Because you're saying:
So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy. Romans 9:15-16

Okay. I could respect what you believe. But it brings us back to my original point to which you're answering.
If ALL depends on God, then, yes, we are as puppets.

Was Jesus a puppet?
No?
Then maybe we aren't either.

Have I misunderstood something here?

Wondering

 

[smaller]

What relevance does this Scripture have to the matter at hand? If anything it support the Bible truth that those who are saved go on to maturity and ultimately perfection. Paul is telling us that he has not reached the pinnacle of Christian perfection (even though from our perspective he was almost there). That implies that his salvation was always secure.

Never said otherwise, and yes, that is the topic from what I recall. It got tied in to current judgment, which is where a lot of believers get lost, that being the status of the current "vile body" and what is to come, from Phil. 3:21, if you were following the conversation.

 

[smaller]

Do you ever listen to me?
You cannot will yourself into salvation.
If you want it, you ask God for it and he gives it to you.
You have no power over God.
If He says it's yours forever, then it is.

Brilliant deduction. That is part of what "faith" is, belief in His Promise and His Abilities. We believe His Spirit dwells within us by faith, which is also why it's pointless to:

A. Try to escape
B. To try to condemn a believer, because it's not just the believer present with the person. Christ is IN THEM whether we "like it later" or not.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Can believers be blinded by their own flesh to the reality of Christ with them and in them later?

Of course. That's always what the flesh tries to do, because it IS contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit.

Christ will still Prevail, in the final analysis, having never left them or forsaken them. Even by the blindness imposed by the flesh, upon those He has called.

There is NO escape.

Ecclesiastes 8:8
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

 

[Eugene]

Eugene said: ↑
What a dance to seemingly support your religion of works. Yeah I know what "Everlasting means, but . . .

Eugene,
Your last sentence in the above post is what I'm interested in.
Iv'e found that people on your side of the aisle believe people on my side of the aisle believe in a "religion of works."

would you please explain why you think I believe I have to work for my continued salvation. If I trusted in Jesus to save me, can't I trust in Him to continue to save me as long as I so will it?

Dear Sister wondering, thank you for your kind response, and your question is something we should be concerned with. Believing differently on certain doctrines should not disqualify us as to the quality of others faith and motives just as we read in:
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

There seems to be confusion in our salvation as to its application. I wrote the following pamphlet I hope will clear it up a bit for you.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

The biggest thing I see we differ on is in the manner different tenses the word “Salvation” is used. E.g., a portion I address is that salvation is provisional, followed by three other stages of our new birth.

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10) "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

(Romans 8:1). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in (Romans 8:4) it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In (Romans 8:18-23), Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

John 6:37-40. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jesus won't cast us out regardless of our failures) (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Eph. 4:30. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

In the above verses, we have been given eternal life (That is God's own life without beginning or end from the moment we're born again), and Jesus says He will not let any one take us out of his hand. The Father will not let anyone take you out of His hand, and the Holy Spirit has sealed us until the day of redemption. How much more secure can we be than God telling us in His word that He is totally for us?

 

[GodsGrace]

You're a mysterious person Smaller.
Romans 8 and Ecclesiastes 8 is speaking about death.
I guess death could have something to do with everything...

W

 

[smaller]

Smaller, what does the life to come have to do with anything I've said? I'm looking forward to it too.
I also don't understand what John 5:39 has to do with any of this.

I used that to save "your story" of the scriptures. Whatever the scriptures have to say, they say of Christ.

All "stories" of scriptures begin and end with Him.

Jesus is speaking to His Messianic mission and how the scriptures speak to Him and His salvific work. This has nothing to do with God's relationship to man? Okay.

I might consider the relationship inferior (believers) to Superior, Him. Or "subjective" (us) to Objective, Him.

I know my place in the scheme of things. Very very small and getting progressively smaller. Hence, my posting name.

And HOW we read the scriptures will vary? So you're a SOLO scriptura person?

Sola, yes. I don't buy the story of any man by comparisons. We have His Word for our sights and thoughts. Which I wouldn't trade for any person's story. Not even my own.

You sit at home and read the bible and make up your own interpretation?

Bringing every 'thought' captive is an interesting task. And one I quite enjoy. I have learned from many other believers. Some good, some bad. God tends to put believers in your way to bring understandings, when needed, or to provide contrast to show things that are not so cool.

You must have studied years for this, I hope. OR do you just let the Holy Spirit guide you?

Well of course. I've had my nose buried in scriptures for decades. His Word, ALL of it, is an entire JOY to me, personally. There is a book hidden in the book that few will find. I'm still quite engaged in reading that one. I LOVE studies of allegories/parables/spiritual associations. That is my deepest passion. And that is where the scriptures are VEILED to flesh eyes. Yes, only the Holy Spirit can bring illumination for that book. And there are very certain "written rules of engagement" that a believer MUST be brought through in order to "see it." Blockades I might call them.

Well, if the Holy Spirit is guiding YOU and ME, how come we come up with different interpretations?

Well, let's see? Which rule would I look at first? Perhaps because we do not really love one another as we are commanded? That would be number 1 on the list. Secondly, most fail miserably in trying to understand JUDGMENTS. So, yeah, that's it in a nutshell. There are TWO hands required. Gods Right Hand and His Left Hand. Love and Judgment.

Over time a believer usually gets either good at both, or gets off balance for awhile. Very common.

There is a Spiritual Reason that the Israelites went straight down the middle of the Red Sea, swaying neither to the left hand or to the right hand. And this is a spiritual methodology that a believer can come to understand. Studies of scripture, specifically of the "right and left" hand are considerable.

I might even term Jesus as King of the Middle Ground.

Exodus 14:22
And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Numbers 22:26
And the angel of the Lord went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

So, yeah, God does have patterns and RULES to follow.

The Holy Spirit is lacking?

The Holy Spirit operates the same way. He is for us as believers AND simultaneously against the evil present with us, the sin dwelling in our sorry hides of flesh. One of the hardest rules is to understand the adverse workings of the Holy Spirit. It is a pitiful place to go to. But I understand this part as well as I care to.

God in Christ is both FRIEND and FOE. Savior AND Destroyer.

So, yeah, I have a relationship with the King of the Middle Ground. That would be Christ IN me. Literally in my MIDST. Dividing ME from my adversaries in the flesh.

Maybe we need a church to actually help us understand scripture?

I don't sit under any liar. Can't do it. The Holy Spirit has forbidden me to do so.

You will NOT find honest scriptural handlers in the systems of MAN. That much is certain in today's world. No one would listen. No, not one. And Paul warned us about that a long long time ago. Acts 20:29.

I refuse to sit under "sheep killers."

And I don't like the word SUBJECTIVITY. God is not subjective about anything.

Never said He was. I draw no boundaries around God in Christ. He Is Endless Objectivity with all subjectivity under His Rule. I am His "subject." I know my place. It is the place of subservience.

Re robots and puppets. If you don't understand how we would be puppets and/or robots UNLESS we have free will -

I'm not interested in having 'my will.' All True Freedom is only IN HIM. There is no other FREEDOM.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eugene said: ↑
What a dance to seemingly support your religion of works. Yeah I know what "Everlasting means, but . . .

Dear Sister wondering, thank you for your kind response, and your question is something we should be concerned with. Believing differently on certain doctrines should not disqualify us as to the quality of others faith and motives just as we read in:
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

There seems to be confusion in our salvation as to its application. I wrote the following pamphlet I hope will clear it up a bit for you.
Salvation with Security – 1, 2, 3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fell...ds/salvation-with-security-parts-1-2-3.52236/

The biggest thing I see we differ on is in the manner different tenses the word “Salvation” is used. E.g., a portion I address is that salvation is provisional, followed by three other stages of our new birth.

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10) "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

(Romans 8:1). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in (Romans 8:4) it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In (Romans 8:18-23), Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

John 6:37-40. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Jesus won't cast us out regardless of our failures) (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Eph. 4:30. "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

In the above verses, we have been given eternal life (That is God's own life without beginning or end from the moment we're born again), and Jesus says He will not let any one take us out of his hand. The Father will not let anyone take you out of His hand, and the Holy Spirit has sealed us until the day of redemption. How much more secure can we be than God telling us in His word that He is totally for us?

Eugene,
I thank you for the above. You put time and effort into it, but it doesn't answer my question.
I know all of the above. I spoke to how Jesus always spoke in the present, current tense. He wants us to believe NOW and hear NOW. I also spoke ot the idea of being snatched out of His hand.
I won't repeat.

I'm not making my question clear I guess and maybe I should just stop asking.
It seems to me that the OSAS crowd feels sorry for me because they feel that I think I must work my way through salvation. IOW, once I become saved, I have to WORK to maintain that salvation. Now, I DO believe in works, but I don't believe they save me nor keep me saved (they're a RESULT of salvation).

I just wonder why the OSAS believe this.

I'll be checking out your pamphlet a little later on.

Wondering

 

[Eugene]

I DO believe in works, but I don't believe they save me nor keep me saved (they're a RESULT of salvation).

Then I reckon we're on the same page, and have no need of further discussion.
I will add that I believe our works of righteousness has purpose such as we read of concerning the bride of Christ in Rev 19:7-8.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (or righteous acts).

 

[GodsGrace]

Then I reckon we're on the same page, and have no need of further discussion.
I will add that I believe our works of righteousness has purpose such as we read of concerning the bride of Christ in Rev 19:7-8.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (or righteous acts).

Hi Eugene
I read you pamphlet.
All of it.
I agree with all of it.
Then you use some scripture to show how salvation cannot be lost.
I agree with you and am also not willing to debate this ad infinitum.

Just quick: For your scripture John 10:27-29 regarding sheep hearing Jesus' voice and how they will not be snatched out of His hand - I did reply to this in post no. 15; and we did discuss the word "snatch" on this thread for quite a bit.

John 6:37-40
Of course. Jesus will not cast out any that come to Him.
And He will loose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
But then verse 40 says:
That the will of the Father is that everyone who BEHOLDS the Son and BELIEVES in Him, may have eternal life.

Again, we're dealing with the present tense. We must believe in Him now, not at some time in the past.

But there's some misunderstanding here since you're intent is to speak of salvation and mine is to retain that salvation - by CONTINUING to BELIEVE in Him whom God has sent for that very purpose.

Thanks again.

Wondering