Once saved..always saved....It's right here.

[smaller]

You're right in saying God abandons no one. But can we not abandon Him?
If we can't abandon Him, it means we have no free will. But, of course, you don't think we do anyway so we won't go there.

True. The will of exactly no one will vaunt itself over God in Christ, even if said mind blindly thinks it possible.

Which to me is a rather absurd sight from believers. I expect Gods Will is expressed sufficiently in Christ to know His Eternal Values, which are the only values that will survive eternity.

But most Christians do adhere to the free-will theory

I may consider such as the pitiful notions of successful individual rebellion. It ain't happenin.

- so how is that reconciled with the idea that one CANNOT decide to abandon God? I still haven't had an answer to this. If I have free will, shouldn't that allow me to abandon Him if I so wish?

We already know that our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. So it's not unusual for the flesh to come up with all sorts of ideas contrary to Gods Spirit. Doesn't mean any of them are actually legit.

Do you think the freewill of any flesh exists in the grave? In the after life? Again, I'd say no. No persons imperfections will outlast God, ever. But that is what freewill postures. That resistance to God is eternal. Again, a very fleshly notion.

Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

I love John 3:16 It covers so much theology. I once did a very nice lesson on it.
"that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him"
What if I stop believing - what if I decide I've had enough.

What about it? Salvation isn't based on "your faithfulness" to perform anyway. That was never in the cards of salvation. Put salvation into the hands of people with sin dwelling in their flesh and evil present with them all? That again is just bizarre. It would be irresponsible for God to mishandle such a matter that way.

We share a call. We share what He Has and retains in His Own Hands. We are assuredly NOT our own Saviors.

If God forces us to stay Smaller, it means we're those little proverbial robots or puppets.

There is NO escape from God. No such place exists.

Think about that.

Why would I think being "in Him" as being any kind of robot or puppet? I have nothing to add to God nor do I desire whatever it is I may think I have, as if I could "keep it" for eternity. I'd say people who think they have anything to add to God or keep from him forever are the robots and puppets. It's just a ridiculous notion.

The bible is not just a bunch of verses to be pulled out like we do on these threads as proof scripture, it's a complete concept - the concept flows smoothly starting from Genesis 1. It was written in the time frame of about 1,500 years by many different writers and yet it sounds like one continuous, homogeneous story.

And yet how we read it will vary because factually, ever reader is DIFFERENT. There are no two grains of wheat the same, no two raindrops the same, and no 2 believers the same. This should show us we are all quite firmly planted into 'individual SUBJECTIVITY.'

The story is about God's relationship to man.

Nah. The Word is about The Word. Every line of it speaks about HIM.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Everyone else is a "subjective observer."

I expect there to be ZERO of me when this life is over.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[Edward]

True. The will of exactly no one will vaunt itself over God in Christ, even if said mind blindly thinks it possible.

Which to me is a rather absurd sight from believers. I expect Gods Will is expressed sufficiently in Christ to know His Eternal Values, which are the only values that will survive eternity.



I may consider such as the pitiful notions of successful individual rebellion. It ain't happenin.


We already know that our own flesh is contrary to the Spirit and against the Spirit. So it's not unusual for the flesh to come up with all sorts of ideas contrary to Gods Spirit. Doesn't mean any of them are actually legit.

Do you think the freewill of any flesh exists in the grave? In the after life? Again, I'd say no. No persons imperfections will outlast God, ever. But that is what freewill postures. That resistance to God is eternal. Again, a very fleshly notion.

Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.



What about it? Salvation isn't based on "your faithfulness" to perform anyway. That was never in the cards of salvation. Put salvation into the hands of people with sin dwelling in their flesh and evil present with them all? That again is just bizarre. It would be irresponsible for God to mishandle such a matter that way.

We share a call. We share what He Has and retains in His Own Hands. We are assuredly NOT our own Saviors.


There is NO escape from God. No such place exists.


Why would I think being "in Him" as being any kind of robot or puppet? I have nothing to add to God nor do I desire whatever it is I may think I have, as if I could "keep it" for eternity. I'd say people who think they have anything to add to God or keep from him forever are the robots and puppets. It's just a ridiculous notion.



And yet how we read it will vary because factually, ever reader is DIFFERENT. There are no two grains of wheat the same, no two raindrops the same, and no 2 believers the same. This should show us we are all quite firmly planted into 'individual SUBJECTIVITY.'


Nah. The Word is about The Word. Every line of it speaks about HIM.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Everyone else is a "subjective observer."

I expect there to be ZERO of me when this life is over.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Surely you jest. How could there be zero of us left when we go to be with the Lord? No personality or individual consciousness? We just get absorbed into God...and nothing?

1 Corinthians 2:9

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Surely you jest. How could there be zero of us left when we go to be with the Lord? No personality or individual consciousness? We just get absorbed into God...and nothing?

1 Corinthians 2:9

Good point Eddie.
As much as I agree with so much that smaller says, I think he's missing his own point here.
How can someone in the flesh understand the afterlife?
Any interpretations we make are made in the flesh.
So there's a contradiction of terms here.

We don't know what happens.
We should just look towards the promises and rejoice that we have something.
We will be with God forever, and it will be good.

That is our blessed hope, we will rise from the dead also.
And whatever he gives us, it will be wonderful, because he is wonderful.

 

[smaller]

Surely you jest. How could there be zero of us left when we go to be with the Lord? No personality or individual consciousness? We just get absorbed into God...and nothing?
1 Corinthians 2:9

Philippians 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

 

[Cygnus]

Well, you don't know if my interpretation is correct or not. The point is that it IS interpretation, as is every scripture reading. We have to try to understand every bit of scripture in the context of the entire Bible. It's very misleading to try using any single reading in isolation to make a point in theology. That's why I would never use just the Hebrews reading, nor any of the readings from John's Gospel, to insist that OSAS is either right or wrong. My interpretation - taken from my understanding of the entire Bible - is that someone once saved can, indeed, lose his salvation.

Then how do explain how no one can snatch you from Jesus' hand?

No one seems to be addressing that verse.

 

[Cygnus]

No one and nothing can forcibly remove anyone from Jesus' hand.
Anyone can make the choice to step opt of His hand.

Jhn 10:27-30 (NIV) My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

There is absolutely nothing in that passage that says a "sheep" will be prevented, by God, from walking away.

What OSAS advocates regularly do is attempt to make the passage say what it does Not say. IT does NOT say that anyone "in Jesus' hand" has been stripped of hisr free will and are prevented by God to ever "turn from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does" (Eze 18:24 NKJV)

iakov

If the sheep can walk away..they were snatched from Jesus' hand.

You're post seems to be writing betwen the lines.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Then how do explain how no one can snatch you from Jesus' hand?

No one seems to be addressing that verse.

That seems to be quite literal to me.
What needs explaining about it?

 

[Cygnus]

Cygnus said: ↑
That's why I asked....what does being snatched from Jesus' hand mean? I wish someone would address the opening post.

Cygnus
I addressed the above in my post no. 15
You could not agree with it, but did you see it?

Wondering

Concerning your post 15....And no one will snatch them out of my hand... My Father is greater than all...
No one, or no force, can snatch us out of God's hand unless it is our will. Satan can try many ways to snatch us out of God's hand, but it's up to our will to remain safe with the Holy Spirit. Christ went to the cross so that we may be safe in God's hands - we just need to trust in Jesus' redeeming sacrifice. God is stronger than any force trying to snatch us away.

If it is "our will" ...something changed our mind. That which changed our mind is a snatching from Jesus' hand....which is impossible.

 

[Cygnus]

Well, you don't know if my interpretation is correct or not. The point is that it IS interpretation, as is every scripture reading. We have to try to understand every bit of scripture in the context of the entire Bible. It's very misleading to try using any single reading in isolation to make a point in theology. That's why I would never use just the Hebrews reading, nor any of the readings from John's Gospel, to insist that OSAS is either right or wrong. My interpretation - taken from my understanding of the entire Bible - is that someone once saved can, indeed, lose his salvation.

Which is in contradiction to Jesus' words...no one can snatch you from His hands.

Unless you can explain the contradiction...I'll accept Jesus' words as the truth...and your interpretation as error.

 

[Cygnus]

You're being WAY too clear, concise and logical.
How's anybody supposed to argue with that? :wink

iakov the fool

Argue with that? So far no one has explained what snatching from Jesus' hand is. Lots of opinion perhaps, but no biblical references to support what snatching from Jesus's hand is.

 

[Cygnus]

Here's my other thought....

If you can lose your salvation....you already have. I kinda pity that theology.

 

[Jim Parker]

If the sheep can walk away..they were snatched from Jesus' hand.

Not in English it isn't

 

[Jim Parker]

Argue with that? So far no one has explained what snatching from Jesus' hand is. Lots of opinion perhaps, but no biblical references to support what snatching from Jesus's hand is.

Do you know what the word "snatch" means?
Here: Snatch: Grab, Grasp, Seize, Take
Does that help?

 

[Eugene]

I believe that we could walk away from the Lord or otherwise lose our salvation for a few reasons. Some have been noted already, and I could add this scripture in support of it.
Psalms 69:28
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous./

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life . .

How do we overcome?

1 Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[Mike S]

Then how do explain how no one can snatch you from Jesus' hand?

No one seems to be addressing that verse.

It doesn't seem to say to me that I can't leave Jesus hand on my own. But, I don't want to get into dueling scriptures.

 

[Eugene]

[removed quote from deleted post]
Jim, you might want to investigate the purpose of staying the course; is it to be, or remain saved? A hint might be to consider what you are to be judged by, and its purpose.

You were quick to bring forth the meaning of the word “snatch” in another post: Do you know what the word "snatch" means? Here: Snatch: Grab, Grasp, Seize, Take Does that help?

Would you care to explain the word “everlasting” used in John 5:24? Strong’s concordance gives “without end, never to cease, everlasting”. I do not see the modifier “Until he quits believing.”

A search on Google provides the following synonyms of “everlasting: eternal, endless, never ending, perpetual, undying, abiding, enduring, infinite, boundless, & timeless.

Many of the bibles you may use translate that word “everlasting” as “eternal” which is a time without end.

 

[Edward]

Good point Eddie.
As much as I agree with so much that smaller says, I think he's missing his own point here.
How can someone in the flesh understand the afterlife?
Any interpretations we make are made in the flesh.
So there's a contradiction of terms here.

We don't know what happens.
We should just look towards the promises and rejoice that we have something.
We will be with God forever, and it will be good.

That is our blessed hope, we will rise from the dead also.
And whatever he gives us, it will be wonderful, because he is wonderful.

That's exactly right...and it's going to be far better and different than we are able to conceive in the flesh. But we get to be there, lol. You'll still be Rollo and I'll still be Edward. Though we do get a new name too, on a white rock?

Those whose names are in the BoL can not be snatched out of His hand. That doesn't equate to OSAS, that means that, those who have chosen to have faith in Jesus Christ, and walk in that faith...can not be snatched by the enemy, forever.

Some have had faith, and for whatever reason, choose to stop having faith in God. I know one guy who, after he got divorced...got mad at God over it and stopped having faith, and walking with God.

Life is full of choices. That free will thing, ya' know.

 

[Jim Parker]

It doesn't seem to say to me that I can't leave Jesus hand on my own.

The language can be confusing.
John 10:27-29 (RSV) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish,
That they will never perish can be taken to mean that, because Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, it is impossible for them to perish. But that view can only be taken from the vantage point of that one sentence. There are many verses which tell us that someone can return to his previous sinful life and forfeit the eternal lifre which Jesus gave him.

and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all,
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

There are three parties indicted in these verses; God, the "sheep", and the one who would attempt to snatch the sheep from JEsus' hand.
Jesus stated that the third party (snatcher) would not succeed.
Jesus said absolutely nothing about the sheep jumping out of His hand.

The best example of a sheep jumping out of Jesus' hand is Eze 18:24 (RSV) But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.
No third party is indicated. The righteous man is the responsible party. (No snatcher)
That passage is paralleled at Hebrews 6:4-8 (RSV) For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
Again, There is no 3rd party "snatcher" indicated. The apostate sheep is responsibility for his own apostasy.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, you might want to investigate the purpose of staying the course; is it to be, or remain saved?

Yes. Have you not read the Ezekiel 18:24 passage? IT says that if a righteous ("saved") man turns from his righteousness and returns to a life of sin, he will die.

A hint might be to consider what you are to be judged by, and its purpose.

Scripture very clearly says that we will be judged by our works.
The purpose of the judgement is to separate the saved from the damned. (See Mat 25:31-46)
There is no mystery there.

Jesus said:
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said:
Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Would you care to explain the word “everlasting” used in John 5:24? Strong’s concordance gives “without end, never to cease, everlasting”. I do not see the modifier “Until he quits believing.”

That's because you incorrectly assumed that the word "everlasting" referred to the word "hath" (or in the English that you speak: "has.")
The word "everlasting" says absolutely nothing about the duration of a person's possession of the life.
The word "everlasting" describes the word "life." It is the life which is everlasting, not the possession of the everlasting life.
Jesus did not say the believer would "everlastingly" have life.
He said the life he would have is everlasting.
Everlasting is an adjective which describes the word "life."
It is NOT an adverb describing the word "has."
Your confusion is based on a grammatical error.

A search on Google provides the following synonyms of “everlasting: eternal, endless, never ending, perpetual, undying, abiding, enduring, infinite, boundless, & timeless.

I know what the word means. That's not the problem.
The problem is your misuse of the word.
You have attempted to make an adjective operate as both an adjective and an adverb at the same time to modify two different words at the same time. That is making an absolute shambles of English grammar.
Ex: Adjective: ETERNAL life
Ex: Adverb: ETERNALLY have
The life which a person has when he believes is eternal life.
If he ceases to believe, he no longer has the eternal life.

 

[Eugene]

Eugene said: ↑
Jim, you might want to investigate the purpose of staying the course; is it to be, or remain saved?

Yes. Have you not read the Ezekiel 18:24 passage? IT says that if a righteous ("saved") man turns from his righteousness and returns to a life of sin, he will die.

You're attempting to equate the Christian "Sin unto death" as that of the judgment of the unbeliever? For unbelief even Moses was to to go and die! Do you think he is in hell?

Eugene said: ↑
A hint might be to consider what you are to be judged by, and its purpose.

Scripture very clearly says that we will be judged by our works.
The purpose of the judgement is to separate the saved from the damned. (See Mat 25:31-46)
There is no mystery there.

Jesus said:
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul said:
Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

We're evidently reading different bibles. Rom 2:16 says we will be judged according to the gospel the risen Jesus gave Paul, and which had been hidden from ages and generations (Col 1:26). What is its purpose for the Church? You may read its judgments in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. A part of that gospel was to follow Paul as he followed Jesus according to 1 Cor 11:1.

Eugene said: ↑
Would you care to explain the word “everlasting” used in John 5:24? Strong’s concordance gives “without end, never to cease, everlasting”. I do not see the modifier “Until he quits believing.”

I know what the word means. That's not the problem.
The problem is your misuse of the word.
You have attempted to make an adjective operate as both an adjective and an adverb at the same time to modify two different words at the same time. That is making an absolute shambles of English grammar.

What a dance to seemingly support your religion of works. Yeah I know what "Everlasting means, but . . .