Once saved Always saved

[jeremiahj13]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

 

[JoJo]

When we accepted Christ, we were sealed in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) Who can remove this seal?

 

[whirlwind]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

 

[Adullam]

There is no proof to suggest that the Titanic survivors were saved from all possible drownings in the future.

We are in no position to regard ourselves as permanently saved or not. We cannot judge ourselves or others. We cannot justify ourselves or others.

 

[turnorburn]

Jesus gave us one way to judge " By their fruits ye shall know them"


turnorburn

 

[Paidion]

Paul seemed to think that he could be disqualified from receiving the imperishable wreath.

Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
I Corinthians 9:24-27

Jesus said:

If someone does not remain in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. John 15:16

The author of Hebrews wrote in Hebrews 10:26-31

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[follower of Christ]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

No we cannot 'lose' salvation.
I 'lose' my car keys.
To 'lose' something presumes that it is against my will or my knowledge, or both.
We cannot unknowingly 'lose' salvation.

We CAN, however, 'reject' the free gift.
To say otherwise is to claim that God steals our will to choose when we become born again.

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence
[quote:cyzotb56]See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

[/quote:cyzotb56]

 

[Dave Slayer]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

No offense, but that doesn't make sense. The question should be "If saved, always saved?".

God never leaves us or forsakes us even if we forsake Him for a time. When we let go, God still is holding on. We may backslide away from God for a time, but that doesn't mean we lose our salvation. If all of a sudden someone decides to stop following God the rest of his life, chances are he wasn't a true believer to begin with.

I am sure many will disagree over what I said and I can respect that. I wish not debate this issue, but suffice to say this:

I serve God who never lets go even when I am weak.

:amen

 

[follower of Christ]

No offense, but that doesn't make sense. God never leaves us or forsakes us even if we forsake Him for a time. When we let go, God still is holding on. We may backslide away from God for a time, but that doesn't mean we lose our salvation. If all of a sudden someone decides to stop following God the rest of his life, chances are he wasn't a true believer to begin with.

I am sure many will disagree over what I said and I can respect that. I will not debate this issue, but suffice to say this.

I serve God who never lets go even when I am weak.

:amen

My own view, based on study, is that 'backsliding' isnt the same as apostasy.
A person can wander off the path for a time and God can be drawing him back to it, but that doesnt mean that the person has decided to renounce his faith in Christ, which apparently some of the Hebrews were doing to escape persecution.

The former is certainly sin, the latter is 'sin unto death'....for which we are told not to even bother praying about.

 

[whirlwind]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

No offense, but that doesn't make sense. The question should be "If saved, always saved?".

God never leaves us or forsakes us even if we forsake Him for a time. When we let go, God still is holding on. We may backslide away from God for a time, but that doesn't mean we lose our salvation. If all of a sudden someone decides to stop following God the rest of his life, chances are he wasn't a true believer to begin with.

I am sure many will disagree over what I said and I can respect that. I wish not debate this issue, but suffice to say this:

I serve God who never lets go even when I am weak.

:amen

I agree with FOC. Being weak isn't apostasy. Therein we find the difference. However, I don't see it as the "sin unto death." Those that do fall into apostasy (will be/are now) considered the "spiritually dead" and as such are not of the "first resurrection" if that is the path they continue to follow. But, they will be taught during the millennium with no influence from Satan. Then the spiritually dead will be again tested and that is the final test!

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

Satan's plan is to have us follow him in place of God and...he's doing a bang-up-good-job of leading us down that path. It isn't that we will bow down and worship some creature with horns and pitchfork but through his deception many will be deceived into that worship. Many of His parables tell us of this but the one that comes to mind is the one about the ten virgins....all loved God and yet....five were foolish.

 

[Cornelius]

When we accepted Christ, we were sealed in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) Who can remove this seal?

You can.

 

[Cornelius]

No offense, but that doesn't make sense. The question should be "If saved, always saved?".

Problem is that salvation is seen as a door we move through once , whereas that Bible says its a journey unto salvation.

We are only saved when we manifest the fruit , which is Christ.No manifestation, no salvation.

 

[Cornelius]

Here is somebody (a Christian) that was sinning, and was going to be lost. So Paul had him delivered over to Satan, so that he would not be lost. In other words, were he NOT delivered for the destruction of his fleshly nature, he would be lost.

1Co 5:5 to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Very clear indeed. This person was in danger of loosing his salvation and Paul stepped in to prevent that.

 

[Dave Slayer]

When we accepted Christ, we were sealed in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) Who can remove this seal?

You can.

Then God's seal is only as strong as we make it.

My God is much stronger than a God who lets go of a sinner during times of weakness. :yes

I take great comfort in knowing that when I am weak, He is strong. It is a good feeling to have knowing God will never leave me or forsake me during times of heartbreak despair.

 

[follower of Christ]

Then God's seal is only as strong as we make it.

But isnt attaining salvation what we 'make it' to begin with ?
I mean, cant we refuse Gods free gift from the start ?
So what changes when we become born again? Does God suddenly strip us of that freedom to choose to begin with ?

My God is much stronger than a God who lets go of a sinner during times of weakness. :yes

Its not about weakness....apostasy, that is.
Its about a willful, purposeful, and with full knowledge outright renouncing of the faith with that intent.

I take great comfort in knowing that when I am weak, He is strong. It is a good feeling to have knowing God will never leave me or forsake me during times of heartbreak despair.

As should we all
But we should also fear apostasy. Not simply being wayward for a spell, but the WILLFUL rejection of the faith. Its not something that happens by accident. Not based on what we read in Hebrews. Its is an intentional rejection of Him after having come to Him.

I personally dont see that this ability to choose is ever removed from a man.
Without that ability we may as well all be mindless automatons.

 

[Benoni]

First of all we should not fear anything, fear is not of God. What we should be doing is seeking asking and knocking....

Second all carnal earthy people reject God's calling until God calls them first; they are dead in trustpasses and sin. The word freewill or choice are not Biblical words when it comes to salvation they are religious words. The fact is if God does not call you you have no power on your own freewill to come.

“John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice the CONTEXT. A carnal earthy man is dead. Have you ever seen a dead man read something? He is dead in trespasses and sins, we all died in Adam. In other words we are all dead in trespasses and sin from the realm of God. Quick means living, active, life giving.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):


Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[quote="Dave Slayer":2rv0848t]Then God's seal is only as strong as we make it.

But isnt attaining salvation what we 'make it' to begin with ?
I mean, cant we refuse Gods free gift from the start ?
So what changes when we become born again? Does God suddenly strip us of that freedom to choose to begin with ?

My God is much stronger than a God who lets go of a sinner during times of weakness. :yes

Its not about weakness....apostasy, that is.
Its about a willful, purposeful, and with full knowledge outright renouncing of the faith with that intent.

I take great comfort in knowing that when I am weak, He is strong. It is a good feeling to have knowing God will never leave me or forsake me during times of heartbreak despair.

As should we all
But we should also fear apostasy. Not simply being wayward for a spell, but the WILLFUL rejection of the faith. Its not something that happens by accident. Not based on what we read in Hebrews. Its is an intentional rejection of Him after having come to Him.

I personally dont see that this ability to choose is ever removed from a man.
Without that ability we may as well all be mindless automatons.

[/quote:2rv0848t]

 

[JoJo]

When we accepted Christ, we were sealed in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) Who can remove this seal?

You can.

Then God's seal is only as strong as we make it.

My God is much stronger than a God who lets go of a sinner during times of weakness. :yes

I take great comfort in knowing that when I am weak, He is strong. It is a good feeling to have knowing God will never leave me or forsake me during times of heartbreak despair.

Well said, Dave.

 

[Cornelius]

Well said, Dave.

Actually that is not true . You are talking about the same God who broke His covenant with Israel, through their unbelief. They broke the covenant of faith, so God did not have to bring His part too.

He is under no obligation to fulfill His part, if we break ours.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:

I am sure I do not have to explain what "falling away" means? Or do I?

OK I will

G868
ἀÆίÃĀημι
aphistēmi
af-is'-tay-mee
From G575 and G2476; to remove, that is, (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.: - depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

So there you have it in the Greek. It means to fall away. That is when we enter into unbelief regarding the promises of God.

C

 

[whirlwind]

Well said, Dave.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger: and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father.


What does Satan do?


1 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Jesus warned us in the Olivet prophecies....

Matthew 24:3-5 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in My name, saying, 'I am Christ;' and shall deceive many.

That warning was repeated in Mark and Luke. Many will come "in His name" saying they are Christian and...THEY SHALL DECEIVE MANY. How will he deceive? By "shewing himself that he is God." The love and belief in Christ is transferred to Satan through deception. When you believe in Satan (even unknowingly) then you ....no longer believe in Christ!!! One MUST believe in Christ.

 

[cyberjosh]

When we accepted Christ, we were sealed in Christ. (2 Corinthians 1:21-22) Who can remove this seal?

Through some previous discussions a year or more back on this very topic Joe (francis) said something that led me to a very important realization about the nature of the seal that the Holy Spirit gives us. Joe quoted Romans 4:11 which says, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them." I had never paid attention to this verse previously and suddenly I saw the parallelism between "seal" and "sign" in that, like circumcision, the seal is a mark (sign) of identification, ownership, endorsement, etc. However even the sign of circumcision did not save the Israelites who disobeyed God. If you look at the words "seal" and "sealed" throughout the Old Testament you will see that they in the majority of cases refer not to the physical object of the seal but the action of imprinting the clay, sometimes referring to the signet ring itself which bore the unique mark of ownership. So often "to seal" referred to pressing one's signet ring on the clay and only occasionally did it refer to the clay itself.

Similarly we can see God's mark of identification upon us through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. For the longest time I took the verses about us being sealed by the Holy Spirit as referring to something similar to how a cork would be used to "seal" a bottle, but that is not its primary meaning - nor the full force of its import and significance in the Bible. It does include to an extent the actual idea of the security of the seal, but more importantly it reflects what is imprinted on the believer's heart.

The heart of a person is the clay for the Holy Spirit to bear Christ's image upon, to transform us according to God's will, but a seal cannot be applied on a hard heart any more than a signet ring could be used to impress an image on hardened clay - and the work of the Holy Spirit is not a one-time deal, it is a constant, and vibrant, impressing and imputing of Christ's image upon us daily. This is what leads to the warning in Hebrews chapter three though - to not harden your heart to the Holy Spirit's prompting and working and to hold fast that which "we had at first":

7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "

12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."

It is simply a matter of the heart. Some may be surprised that others can believe that salvation from Christ could be rejected, thrown away, or trampled upon once they believe, but it is the testimony and sincere warning of Scripture to take heed lest we think we stand, yet we fall. It is nothing to be afraid or terrified about - for God is not one to go back on his promises, nor to easily depart from us, but those promises are within the confines of the new covenant made, and it is sealed and ratified solely through Christ - only walking away from Christ with a hardened heart can depart someone outside the confines of that covenant. God is able to keep our foot from stumbling, as Jude tells us, and can keep us to the end, and we can make our election and calling sure (as Peter urges us), but it is only to those who pursue Christ as their true love, and do not grow complacent or lukewarm about the faith, but rather press toward the mark that will receive the prize of redemption in Jesus Christ. And it is impossible to even run in such a manner - at all - outside of the strength and empowerment of Christ in us: through the enablement of the Spirit to give us grace and dunamis-power to live the Christian life and keep the faith. But be sober, be vigilant... the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak - so pray, seek, ask, knock, press on, lean upon the Lord in times of distress, but do not turn away or seek after your own ways. There is a way that seems right to man, and its end is death. Depend upon Christ.

Today if you hear his voice, do not harden your heart.....

God Bless,

~Josh