Once saved Always saved

[Cornelius]

There are indeed conditons, but once we are regenerated, God enables us to meet those conditions. We cannot meet these conditions on behalf of our flesh. God doesn't give us faith and then let us take over from there. No, God will see us through. :yes

Yes we cannot meet them in our flesh, but they must be met nevertheless . For instance, we really do have to die to self. There are no options given about this. I am not going to talk about God's grace now, because without that we cannot do anything. So for this discussion I am going to take it as a given that you know that .

We have lay down our lives. We have to overcome sin. We have to not love the world. We have to bear fruit. etc. When this happens in our lives, its a sign of us being saved. Those who do not die, do not overcome sin, those who love the world and do not bear fruit will fall among the "many are called" (the word in Greek is actually "invited" ) The "called " are the unsaved world, but the called are you and I. We have been invited to bear fruit. The fruit of Christ. Many (in fact all Christians) have been invited, but as the Word says , in the end: Few are chosen.

Only those who ultimately bear fruit (through faith in the promises) will be chosen.

Only the chosen are saved in the end.

 

[Cornelius]

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;†Philippians 1:6

It says here that God will complete the good work He began us. It doesn't say he will cease from completing a good work in us during times of weakness and then restart the good work.

I take great comfort in this verse. God will finish the good work he began in me until the day of Jesus Christ.

:amen

Good. So if you truly believe this, then you should be able to see this verse coming into fulfillment. God moves on your faith. When we believe this, we then would expect to start seeing the fruit forming , even today. See , the verse uses the word "until". So until the day of Jesus, you will see God finish the work He began.

Its good to believe these promises. But faith without works is dead. So when we believe something like this, we will also start to "walk it out" in faith. Does that make sense? (its a difficult thing to explain on a forum. )

 

[Dave Slayer]

I believe faith will produce good works. I believe my faith has produced many good works. :yes But my works in themselves aren't what saves me. ;) But I am sure you knew that.

Anyways, I gotta get to bed, work tomorrow!

God Bless!

 

[Dave Slayer]

I believe faith will produce good works. I believe my faith has produced many good works. :yes

But my works in themselves aren't what saves me. ;) But I am sure you knew that.

Anyways, I gotta get to bed, work tomorrow!

God Bless!

 

[Cornelius]

I believe faith will produce good works. I believe my faith has produced many good works. :yes But my works in themselves aren't what saves me. ;) But I am sure you knew that.

Anyways, I gotta get to bed, work tomorrow!

God Bless!

I did mention that its difficult to explain. You are misunderstanding what I am meaning by "works". I am not talking about good works (like helping people etc.) That word "works" could be better understood if it said: Faith , without showing the manifestation of what is being believed for by your actions , is dead.

OK, I will try it this way: If I gave you $100 and told you I left it at your friend John's house for you, you would either have faith that I did it, or not.

How would you prove that you indeed believed me?

Only if you went to John's house to fetch it. Now God also sees that "went" as a sign of your faith and that He calls a "work". (Its also means giving to the poor etc. but that is not what we are talking about here)

See , you could say" I believe Cornelius left me a $100 at John's house and then you never go to fetch it. You will then not ever get that money , because you say you have faith , but your action (not going) proved you did not really believe me. Your faith is then dead. Faith without works is dead.


Now apply this to the promises of God. Pick any promise and see what you would DO if you believed it.(that is the "work" that God talks about)

Hope that is cleared now.

Sleep well
C

 

[Aurora]

I wonder why we cant read Gods word, and believe what he tells us.

We who are truly born again, are kept by the power of God. 2 Timothy 1:12 and 1Peter 1:5

I trust what he tells me, for I know he cannot lie, and why would I ever want to leave such Love?

The Bible also tells us, They went out from us, for they were not part of us.

Jesus will tell many, at the judgment.
Depart from me,ye workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you.
They did many wonderful things,in his name, but he never knew them as they had never been saved.

Jesus said again, I have lost none, that the Father hath given me, except the Son of perdition.
He was one who had walked with Jesus, talked with Jesus, acted the right way, but had never given Jesus his heart. :heart I trust him with my eternal well being, my life is hid, in Him.

 

[Lewis]

If man can lose his salvation and get at back anytime he wants, then God's eraser must be wearing thin. God erases our names from the Book of Life everytime we fall away then re-writes it back in when we repent. We could lose our salvation and gain it back hundreds of times.

I don't know about anyone else, but my name is written in ink, not pencil.

:amen

Here we are at Hebrews 6 again, remember I was talking about it a little over a month ago. Ok, now here's the deal read these passages and tell me can both of these men that we are talking about come back. The pastor who went Muslim or Pearson who now seems to be preaching another gospel. Hebrews 6: 4-6 is tricky because of that word (IMPOSSIBLE) but there is a answer. So can these 2 men return.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Paul had to say it 2 times, so it is very important.
Galatians 1:8-9
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Dave Slayer]

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html[/url]

Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.†This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clearâ€â€it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened†(verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,†giving light “to every manâ€Â; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter groupâ€â€unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift†(Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting†death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away†(Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,†“enlightened,†and “tasted of the heavenly gift†are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .†The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.

 

[Dave Slayer]

Concerning Hebrews 10:26.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-10-26.html

“For if we are willfully sinning after receiving the full knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice concerning sins.†Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, right up to the edge of saving belief, who hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then reject what they have learned and turn away. These are people who are perhaps even aware of their sin and even make a profession of faith. But rather than going on to spiritual maturity, their interest in Christ begins to diminish, the things of the world have more attraction to them rather than less, and eventually they lose all desire for the things of God and they turn away. The Lord illustrated these types of people in the second and third soils of Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23. These are those who “receive with joy†the things of the Lord, but who are drawn away by the cares of the world or turned off by difficulties they encounter because of Christ.

“Willful sinning†in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. To know God’s way, to hear it preached, to study it, to count oneself among the faithful, and then to turn away is to become apostate. Sinning willfully carries with it the idea of sinning continually and deliberately. Such a person does not sin because of ignorance, nor is he carried away by momentary temptations he is too weak to resist. The willful sinner sins because of an established way of thinking and acting which he has no desire to give up. The true believer, on the other hand, is one who lapses into sin and loses temporary fellowship with God. But he will eventually come back to God in repentance because his heavenly Father will continually woo and convict him until he can’t stay away any longer. The true apostate will continue to sin, deliberately, willingly and with abandon. John tells us that “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him and he cannot sin, because he is born of God†(1 John 3:9).

Apostates have knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. They can be found in the presence of the light of Christ, mostly in the church, among God’s people. Judas Iscariot is the perfect exampleâ€â€he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. No other rejector of the truth had more or better exposure to the love and grace of God than Judas. He was part of Jesus’ inner circle of disciples, eating, sleeping, and traveling with Him for years. He saw the miracles and heard the words of God from Jesus’ very lips, from the best preacher the world has ever known, and yet he not only turned away but was instrumental in the plot to kill Jesus.

Having turned his back on the truth, and with full knowledge choosing to willfully and continually sin, the apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. If Christ’s sacrifice is rejected, then all hope of salvation is gone. To turn away willfully from this sacrifice leaves no sacrifice; it leaves only sin, the penalty for which is eternal death. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving he never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

 

[Cornelius]

I wonder why we cant read Gods word, and believe what he tells us.

We who are truly born again, are kept by the power of God. 2 Timothy 1:12 and 1Peter 1:5

Well for one thing, what does "truly born again" mean ? The Bible does not tell us that you are born again and that is it. Nor does it ever mention truly born again. Born from above, is more correct and that is a continues process, not a once off event.

You mention 1Pe 1:4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

There is no mention of eternal security in salvation in either scriptures you mention. It does speak of our inheritance that is guarded through faith UNTO a salvation.

We are never just "born again", we are all being born from above all the time. You and I can stop this at any time.

 

[JoJo]

I believe salvation, like circumcision, is a one time thing. I do not believe it is something that happens over and over and over again. We are born once of our mothers and reborn in the Holy Spirit. I do not believe we can be reborn over and over again. So if we are to believe we lose our salvation, it would be reasonable to believe that we cannot gain it back again and again and again. Christ died once and for all, not over and over again for each sin we commit. And when we accept Him, He places His seal of ownership on us with a love and mercy that forgives our every sin.

Many of the verses that have been quoted in this thread have been examined and explained by godly leaders, those who believe that God's love and mercy is so strong and so real that not even man can undo it. Man can't even claim credit for his own faith. Ephesians 2:8 tells us, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Throughout the Church, there is a strong division: some believe you can lose your salvation; others believe it is eternal. I choose to believe Christ died once and for all for my salvation. I doubt I could convince you otherwise just as it would be difficult for you to convince me otherwise. If I am wrong, I trust the Holy Spirit will lead me and teach me as He has done throughout my life in Christ. So because I love all of you, I have decided to agree to disagree with you on this matter and together we will await the dawning of peace and truth in Christ.

I'm outtie this thread! :nod

 

[Aurora]

I wonder why we cant read Gods word, and believe what he tells us.

We who are truly born again, are kept by the power of God. 2 Timothy 1:12 and 1Peter 1:5

Well for one thing, what does "truly born again" mean ? The Bible does not tell us that you are born again and that is it. Nor does it ever mention truly born again. Born from above, is more correct and that is a continues process, not a once off event.

You mention 1Pe 1:4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

There is no mention of eternal security in salvation in either scriptures you mention. It does speak of our inheritance that is guarded through faith UNTO a salvation.

We are never just "born again", we are all being born from above all the time. You and I can stop this at any time.

Awe, I see where I goofed, my fault! It is....1Peter 1:5 not 1:4 just one verse past strange you didnt see my mistake....
1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through Faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 24 is also one to hold onto.....Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy!
To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, and power, both now, and ever. Amen :amen

 

[Dave Slayer]

I believe salvation, like circumcision, is a one time thing. I do not believe it is something that happens over and over and over again. We are born once of our mothers and reborn in the Holy Spirit. I do not believe we can be reborn over and over again. So if we are to believe we lose our salvation, it would be reasonable to believe that we cannot gain it back again and again and again. Christ died once and for all, not over and over again for each sin we commit. And when we accept Him, He places His seal of ownership on us with a love and mercy that forgives our every sin.

Many of the verses that have been quoted in this thread have been examined and explained by godly leaders, those who believe that God's love and mercy is so strong and so real that not even man can undo it. Man can't even claim credit for his own faith. Ephesians 2:8 tells us, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Throughout the Church, there is a strong division: some believe you can lose your salvation; others believe it is eternal. I choose to believe Christ died once and for all for my salvation. I doubt I could convince you otherwise just as it would be difficult for you to convince me otherwise. If I am wrong, I trust the Holy Spirit will lead me and teach me as He has done throughout my life in Christ. So because I love all of you, I have decided to agree to disagree with you on this matter and together we will await the dawning of peace and truth in Christ.

I'm outtie this thread! :nod

I think I have said all I could on the subject as well. I will also agree to disagree that we can lose our salvation.

Since I am nowhere close to becoming apostate, I don't really need to be worrying about it anyways.

 

[Fembot]

JoJo

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

If we are saved through faith, what happens when someone loses faith in God?

 

[Dave Slayer]

JoJo

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

If we are saved through faith, what happens when someone loses faith in God?

Well, the Bible says it is God who gives us faith. So if God gives it to us, I do not believe He will take it away from us, let alone during our moments of weakness. God is the author and finisher of our faith. Not just the author and man the finisher.

;)

If someone says they have faith, that doesn't neccesarilly mean they are genuinely saved. I am sure Judas thought he was saved but he betrayed Jesus and went apostate.

The only reason why anyone has faith is because God gives it to us. Man cannot produce faith, therefore he cannot take it away from himself.

My God gave me faith and it is mine to keep forever. No if's, and's, or but's

:amen

 

[Dave Slayer]

Also consider this verse:

Phillipians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

God doesn't begin a work and stop finsishing it. He completes His work until the day of Jesus Christ. :yes

:amen

If I could lose my salvation, I would not be very "confident".

 

[Aurora]

[quote="Dave Slayer":33w87lmm]If man can lose his salvation and get at back anytime he wants, then God's eraser must be wearing thin. God erases our names from the Book of Life everytime we fall away then re-writes it back in when we repent. We could lose our salvation and gain it back hundreds of times.

I don't know about anyone else, but my name is written in ink, not pencil.

:amen

Here we are at Hebrews 6 again, remember I was talking about it a little over a month ago. Ok, now here's the deal read these passages and tell me can both of these men that we are talking about come back. The pastor who went Muslim or Pearson who now seems to be preaching another gospel. Hebrews 6: 4-6 is tricky because of that word (IMPOSSIBLE) but there is a answer. So can these 2 men return.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Paul had to say it 2 times, so it is very important.
Galatians 1:8-9
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. [/quote:33w87lmm]


Yes Sir, they can.
What Hebrews is saying is IF we could lose our salvation, it would be impossible to bring them back, but
we know we can repent and be forgiven, so this is actually showing we can not lose out Salvation. For if we could lose it, we would have to crucified Christ all over again, to be saved again.
Christ died, once, for All.
All our sin, and for All mankind.

There will be many in that day, that will stand before God, and he will say to them, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I NEVER knew you!

 

[JoJo]

Also consider this verse:

Phillipians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

God doesn't begin a work and stop finsishing it. He completes His work until the day of Jesus Christ. :yes

:amen

If I could lose my salvation, I would not be very "confident".

Dave, you rock! I was going to come back into this thread just to post that verse and you beat me to it!

If the Lord began a good work in us, then the Lord can finish that work. Why do we doubt this??

 

[whirlwind]

Also consider this verse:

Phillipians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

God doesn't begin a work and stop finsishing it. He completes His work until the day of Jesus Christ. :yes

:amen

If I could lose my salvation, I would not be very "confident".

Dave, you rock! I was going to come back into this thread just to post that verse and you beat me to it!

If the Lord began a good work in us, then the Lord can finish that work. Why do we doubt this??

It isn't God that stops....it is the receiver of His love that turns away and it is because of deception.


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Lewis]

http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html[/url]

Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.†This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clearâ€â€it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened†(verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,†giving light “to every manâ€Â; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter groupâ€â€unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift†(Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting†death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away†(Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,†“enlightened,†and “tasted of the heavenly gift†are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .†The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.[/quote:j29wb5rt]
Dave you did not pay attention man, I asked a question. So how could you disagree with my take.