Once saved Always saved

[Lewis]

You can commit apostasy. There was this pastor in New York about 10 years ago, that changed to a Muslim, now that is apostasy, he lost his place in God's kingdom by doing that.

 

[cyberjosh]

You can commit apostasy. There was this pastor in New York about 10 years ago, that changed to a Muslim, now that is apostasy, he lost his place in God's kingdom by doing that.

He must not have had a very high opinion of Christ. That is a downgrade as concerns what one believes about Jesus: you have to reject his very crucifixion and his status as the Son of God to become a Muslim.

 

[Lewis]

You can commit apostasy. There was this pastor in New York about 10 years ago, that changed to a Muslim, now that is apostasy, he lost his place in God's kingdom by doing that.

He must not have had a very high opinion of Christ. That is a downgrade as concerns what one believes about Jesus: you have to reject his very crucifixion and his status as the Son of God to become a Muslim.

And that's exactly what he did. It made the papers.

 

[westtexas]

I have always believed in OSAS. However, the parable of the four soils(Matt 13:1-23) seems to contradict this. What do y'all think about the seed which fell on rocky soil. It receives the word joyfully and then quickly falls away. This seems to say you can receive salvation and then lose it for some reason. Maybe this is the pastor that Lewis wrote about.

 

[Lewis]

Here is another one, now I use to watch this man preach on TBN, I would hear his gospel records on black gospel radio, which you can still hear his music all across the USA. But he has turned around and went against the Word, check out these links. What went wrong with this once powerful man of God ? So tell me, is this man still saves ?

Check out these links on Pearson
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/

http://www.gospelmusicbites.com/2009/03 ... not-exist/

 

[Dave Slayer]

You can commit apostasy. There was this pastor in New York about 10 years ago, that changed to a Muslim, now that is apostasy, he lost his place in God's kingdom by doing that.

I would say that this person probably was not a true believer to begin with. I have read many debates and arguments on the subject of eternal security and I do not believe salvation can be lost. I have debated this issue here in another thread a few months ago and do not really want to do it again. Suffice to say the following.

Apostasy does happen, but it is my belief those people were never really saved in the first place. There is a big debate over this and perhaps I am wrong in my understanding. But I have the same chance of being wrong as anyone else.

A lot of people act like Christians for a while, (some a long time) and think they are saved. But eventually, their true colors will show up. I personally do not believe that once the Holy Spirit is living inside us, that He will leave. I do not know how anyone who has the Holy Spirit will want to walk away from God for good. I do not believe that is possible. If the Bible says that God will never leave us or forsake us, I take Him at His word. If we truly are His sheep, we will never go astray. If someone all of a sudden decides to stop believing in God and ends up dying a non believer, I doubt that person was saved at all. To say that someone can choose to walk away from God's eternal saving promise makes for a weak God, in my opinion. My God has a strong hold on me and He will never let me go.

:amen

These are just my beliefs and I could be wrong. However, I stand by these beliefs and am convinced they are correct based on my studies of scripture and other respources concerning the subject.

 

[cyberjosh]

Dave,

Maybe you could comment on my explanatory post above (here) about the seal of the Holy Spirit and tell me what your take is on it. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

P.S. Also I respect your take and understand it quite well, as it is exactly what my position was a few years ago, and I was just looking for any possibility of Scripture pointing in some other direction if I was wrong (I was willing to concede that I was not 100% sure of my view) and I had my views changed a bit once I stopped making excuses for certain Scriptures and took them (warnings and all) for they said and took them to heart (as aimed at the believer and written for the believer) as they were meant to be. And amazingly realizing that still does not shake the truth of God's ability to keep the believer at all (it does not call for a rejection of that to accept other truths, concerning apostasy), but those other truths do stand as having their rightful place among the whole council of Scripture and should be heeded in a sober fear of God.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[JoJo]

If a physical circumcision cannot be reversed by man, how could a spiritual circumcision be reversed by man?

If I put my faith in Christ and die to my former self and Christ puts His seal of ownership on me, how can I ever dispute that ownership? He either owns us all the way or He doesn't really "own" us, he is "borrowing" us for as long as we are willing to be had. I believe He irrevocably owns us all the way.

I agree with Dave. I truly believe that anyone who has ever "fallen away" from Christ never truly knew Christ and experienced a relationship with Him. You can fall away from religion and even beliefs, but it's an entirely different matter if you turn your back on the One you love. Who leaves the one he loves? Who disowns the one he loves?

 

[Dave Slayer]

Dave,

Maybe you could comment on my explanatory post above (here) about the seal of the Holy Spirit and tell me what your take is on it. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

P.S. Also I respect your take and understand it quite well, as it is exactly what my position was a few years ago, and I was just looking for any possibility of Scripture pointing in some other direction if I was wrong (I was willing to concede that I was not 100% sure of my view) and I had my views changed a bit once I stopped making excuses for certain Scriptures and took them (warnings and all) for they said and took them to heart (as aimed at the believer and written for the believer) as they were meant to be. And amazingly realizing that still does not shake the truth of God's ability to keep the believer at all (it does not call for a rejection of that to accept other truths, concerning apostasy), but those other truths do stand as having their rightful place among the whole council of Scripture and should be heeded in a sober fear of God.

God Bless,

~Josh

Hi Josh, I will try and comment on that post some time soon. I used to believe we can lose our salvation but my position has since changed. I believe that salvation is because of what God can do and not what we can do. God gave believers faith and is the author and finisher of our faith. God cannot be the author of our faith but not the finisher. Only way to get around that is to make God the author of our faith but make man the finisher of our faith. I do not believe that is Biblical.

 

[cyberjosh]

If a physical circumcision cannot be reversed by man, how could a spiritual circumcision be reversed by man?

The difference is that physical circumcision can be a nominal/one-time thing, as the Old Testament certainly attests, and is a singular event (which the Israelites took for granted to the point where God had to tell them to "circumcise their hearts" as an action that they themselves must do - not through their own strength though) but enduring spritual circumcision (the circumcision of the heart) is one of constant communion and walking with Christ, and yet when one even backslides one is betraying that circumcision of "death to the flesh" and is behaving "in lust like the heathen" (1 Thessalonians 4:15), like an uncircumcised Gentile in their heart. Having once been spiritually regenerated (spiritually circumcised from the flesh) in the past does not mean that we therefore can not ever slip back into the flesh (what the Bible would call the "foreskin of our heart") - and that is because there really is no such thing as a done deal "once" complete regeneration and severance from the flesh immediately (imputed in Christ there is - but not of ourselves, which we frequently discover when we sin) - but rather is a constant reality as we are in Christ. This is why we are to "keep putting to death the deeds of the body [flesh]" (Romans 8:13).

Now this does not change the fact that we have been legally/spiritually (through justification in Christ) severed from the flesh in the past, but it does not prevent us from going back to it to commit sin (Romans 7 illustrates such a struggle - and a paradox). Likewise neither did physcal circumcision keep the Israelites from sinning. I believe from my reading of Scripture that if such returning to the flesh is persistent then the heart grows hard and can depart from its first love - Christ. This is why there are so many warnings about it in the Scriptures - even entire Old Testament stories written for our benefit to learn from those mistakes (1 Corinthians 10:6).

The external, physical circumcision is only an outward sign and analogy for the actual required circumcision of the heart (which is a daily cross we must bear). It is clear from Scripture that people's hearts can grow cold and "leave their first love", as did the Church in Revelation and Christ commanded them to repent and return to their first love else he would remove their lampstand (which is saying essentially removing from Christ's presence - because Christ was walking among the lampstands in John's vision in Revelation):

"Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent." (Revelation 2:5)

I agree with Dave. I truly believe that anyone who has ever "fallen away" from Christ never truly knew Christ and experienced a relationship with Him. You can fall away from religion and even beliefs, but it's an entirely different matter if you turn your back on the One you love. Who leaves the one he loves? Who disowns the one he loves?

Now, do not misunderstand, the parable of the seed and the sower makes it clear that there are those who appear to believe yet fall away, demonstrating that they never had true faith to begin with, however there are situations where believers fall into peril of hardening their heart and God in his mercy has given warnings to be heeded in Scripture for believers as well. Would you not agree, or are there some verses that just don't apply to us? Far more serious warnings are given to believers such as 1 Timothy 5:18, "If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." I don't know about you but worse than an unbeliever sounds about as low as it gets.

And also we are told in 2 Peter 2:21, "It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them", and also Hebrews 6:4-6, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame", and especially Hebrews 10:26, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".

Would you not say these are warnings to be heeded? One day I felt convicted over having tried to explain away for so long all the verses like those I gave above, among others all throughout Scripture, and never having taken God's word in those places at face value for what it says. The Gospel is supposed to be simple and understandable by all and should not require complex explanations beyond what is presented. The warnings are warnings, we are to heed them. But the goal of heeding this is not fear or insecurity, but rather rightful obedience to God.

I hope you understand where I am coming from on this issue. I sincerely believe in taking God's word for what it says, ignoring nothing.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[JoJo]

I understand, Josh. Thank you so much for your explanation.

 

[cyberjosh]

I understand, Josh. Thank you so much for your explanation.

Thanks for at least trying to understand my point of view. I certainly do not take my position lightly. I found that the most shocking truth of all is that in the Bible we have to accept paradox sometimes, even if we cannot fully rationalize it. Sometimes this is necessary because truth could suffer as the expense of a "clean" or "easy" explanation, and I would be lying to you if I said I understood the full import of the Spirit/flesh struggle - as I battle with it daily, as do I think we all.

I have found one verse that says it all for me when having to accept unutterable truths of God's word:

"It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them" (Ecclesiastes 7:18)

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[wavy]

Sup, Josh. Working on an article on OT literature, tradition, and religion. I'll be consulting you for 'peer review' on its progress here soon enough, so be ready. :D

Meanwhile, check your pms if you haven't already.

Finis,
Eric

 

[Cornelius]

[quote="Lewis W":2sdh8hrx]You can commit apostasy. There was this pastor in New York about 10 years ago, that changed to a Muslim, now that is apostasy, he lost his place in God's kingdom by doing that.

I would say that this person probably was not a true believer to begin with. [/quote:2sdh8hrx]

You have no way of judging this man like that to support your own doctrine. What is a "true believer"? What makes you become a pastor ? The flesh naturally rejects the things of God (the Bible tells us the flesh is at enmity with God) so if his flesh is at enmity, how can his flesh make him choose God in the first place? Its not possible. He was a Christian. Now he is not. Simple.

 

[Dave Slayer]

[quote="Lewis W":22hzxu07]You can commit apostasy. There was this pastor in New York about 10 years ago, that changed to a Muslim, now that is apostasy, he lost his place in God's kingdom by doing that.

I would say that this person probably was not a true believer to begin with.

You have no way of judging this man like that to support your own doctrine. What is a "true believer"? What makes you become a pastor ? The flesh naturally rejects the things of God (the Bible tells us the flesh is at enmity with God) so if his flesh is at enmity, how can his flesh make him choose God in the first place? Its not possible. He was a Christian. Now he is not. Simple.[/quote:22hzxu07]

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I guess none of us truly know if we are really saved until we die, right? I believe you can be a Christian and not be saved. Many call themselves Christians but may not actually be saved.

I believe that man in his flesh cannot choose God. I believe God enables us to believe in Him and to follow Him. We cannot live for God and do His will without His help. God doesn't "need" us to do anything to merit salvation. God is the author and finisher of our faith. God isn't the author and man the finisher.

What is a true believer? I would say a true believer is someone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside him. But, since many claim to be true believers and end up falling away, then there is really no way for us to know if they are truly believers or not, at least until they have fallen away for good and go to the grave in that condition. I do not believe God will lose any whom are His.

But doesn't the Bible say we will be known my our fruits?

 

[Dave Slayer]

If man can lose his salvation and get at back anytime he wants, then God's eraser must be wearing thin. God erases our names from the Book of Life everytime we fall away then re-writes it back in when we repent. We could lose our salvation and gain it back hundreds of times.

I don't know about anyone else, but my name is written in ink, not pencil.

:amen

 

[Dave Slayer]

The flesh naturally rejects the things of God (the Bible tells us the flesh is at enmity with God)

This is exactly why I rely on God's power and not my flesh.

But in my life, old things have passed away and new things have come. :yes

:amen

 

[Cornelius]

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I guess none of us truly know if we are really saved until we die, right? I believe you can be a Christian and not be saved. Many call themselves Christians but may not actually be saved.

I believe that man in his flesh cannot choose God. I believe God enables us to believe in Him and to follow Him. We cannot live for God and do His will without His help. God doesn't "need" us to do anything to merit salvation. God is the author and finisher of our faith. God isn't the author and man the finisher.

What is a true believer? I would say a true believer is someone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside him. But, since many claim to be true believers and end up falling away, then there is really no way for us to know if they are truly believers or not, at least until they have fallen away for good and go to the grave in that condition. I do not believe God will lose any whom are His.

But doesn't the Bible say we will be known my our fruits?

What you are saying here is more in line with the Word. 1 We cannot claim salvation as a one time event. Salvation is a process that we go through.

First our spirit is saved. Then our soul (be ye changed by the renewing of your mind) and then lastly your body is saved.

But after we took the initial step of believing in Jesus and what He did on the cross, we then have to proceed:
1) We now need to follow Jesus to the cross Luk 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (Only disciples go to heaven)

2) We also need to renounce all that we have Luk 14:33 So therefore whosoever he be of you that renounceth not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Only disciples go to heaven)


3) We need to die to self or we will not inherit eternal life no matter what we believe (Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.
) So no loosing of the self life, no finding of eternal life.

4) We also need to believe God about His promises and live accordingly. Because they righteous shall life by faith. (No faith in the promises = no righteousness= no salvation ) Unrighteous believers do not go to heaven.

5)We have to bear fruit. The fruit is Christ. No fruit, no heaven. Some Christians do not bear the fruit of the Word they hear. We all know the parable. That same parable tells us that the GOOD GROUND alone, brought forth fruit. It even tells us how much fruit it will take to go to heaven.

Mat 13:7 And others fell upon the thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked them:
Mat 13:8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Can you see that anything less than "thirty" fold of fruit, is not considered to be good ground? )

There are many more conditions like "walking as Christ", but this should start painting a Biblical picture. As you can see I took everything from Scripture.

 

[Dave Slayer]

There are indeed conditons, but once we are regenerated, God enables us to meet those conditions. We cannot meet these conditions on behalf of our flesh. God doesn't give us faith and then let us take over from there. No, God will see us through. :yes

 

[Dave Slayer]

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;†Philippians 1:6

It says here that God will complete the good work He began us. It doesn't say he will cease from completing a good work in us during times of weakness and then restart the good work.

I take great comfort in this verse. God will finish the good work he began in me until the day of Jesus Christ.

:amen