Once saved Always saved

[Dave Slayer]

Dave you did not pay attention man, I asked a question. So how could you disagree with my take.

Lewis, I apologize if I misread what you posted, I didn't mean to. I went back and read your post but I do not see the question. Could you please remind me of the question you were asking?

I agree that someone who falls away can come back. I just personally do not believe a true believer can fall away for good. I believe God prevents true believers from falling away. I have fell away at times but I have always came back. Allthough, I never really walked away from God in the sense where I stopped believing, but I was falling into some temptations and didn't feel as close to God. Perhaps we are talking about two different things.

 

[Dave Slayer]

It isn't God that stops....it is the receiver of His love that turns away and it is because of deception.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which DECEIVETH THE WHOLE WORLD: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

I agree that sometimes we are deceived because of false teachings or perhaps another "Gospel", but I do not believe that a true believer can fall away from God for good. When we do fall away, we do not lose our salvation. We may lose the closeness of our fellowship with God temporarily if we are to fall away, but we do not lose our salvation. God is faithful when we are not and He will never leave or forsake us. I do not believe the elect can be so deceieved where he loses his salvation.

Matthew 24:24, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

When it says "if it were possible", I understand that to mean it's not actually possible for the elect to be deceived, at least to the point where they lose their salvation. I understand the "if" to be hypothetical. In eternity past, God chose His elect and He will bring them all to glory.

I believe there are many who think they are believers and may even appear to be believers but are actually not. Eventually, they will go apostate. I believe that the warning to not fall away is showing that true believers will persevere to the end but the ones who fall away will not, they were never regenerated to begin with.

I could be wrong in my understanding, but I have studied it a lot and am convinced that a true believer will never go apostate. If some fall away, that exposes the false believers from the true believers.

 

[Lewis]

Here we are at Hebrews 6 again, remember I was talking about it a little over a month ago. Ok, now here's the deal read these passages and tell me can both of these men that we are talking about come back ? The pastor who went Muslim or Pearson who now seems to be preaching another gospel. Hebrews 6: 4-6 is tricky because of that word (IMPOSSIBLE) but there is a answer. So can these 2 men return ?

Ok Dave the question is in there, I had forgot to put the question marks in there,

 

[Dave Slayer]

Here we are at Hebrews 6 again, remember I was talking about it a little over a month ago. Ok, now here's the deal read these passages and tell me can both of these men that we are talking about come back. The pastor who went Muslim or Pearson who now seems to be preaching another gospel. Hebrews 6: 4-6 is tricky because of that word (IMPOSSIBLE) but there is a answer. So can these 2 men return?

I see the question now. I believe they still can return. No one but God really knows for certain if these two men are true believers having been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. If they are, they will come back and persevere to the end. If they aren't really saved and have rejected Christ as the sacrifice for sin, then there is no other sacrifice for their sin. Have they reached the point of it being impossible for God to renew them again to repentance? I cannot say, I do not know. I sure hope not.

I can't really speak for anyone who believes for a while and then falls away. I was talking to a couple friends of mine one time about this and they were worried that the only reason why they believe in Christ is because of what they were taught to believe growing up. Perhaps they aren't true believers but think they are because their parents made a good case that God exists and that Jesus is real. However, I cannot speak on their behalf because I do not know their hearts as God does. Last I knew, one of them seems to be persevering in the faith. I pray that she is a true believer and will continue to persevere in the faith. The other friend claims to be a believer but in some ways gives reason to believe that she may not be a true believer. But, I am not the judge. I pray for both of them.

:amen

 

[merlow]

Dave Slayer, you keep using the term "true believer". Forgive my ignorance, but what is a true believer?

You also seems to be saying that no one, including the believer, can know if the person is truly saved or not. Is this correct?

 

[Cornelius]

Rev 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

The Bible clearly states that even if you had eternal life (part of the tree of life) your part can be taken away. (no more tree of life = no more eternal life )

Out of the holy city (New Jerusalem) also = no eternal life.

 

[mutzrein]

I wonder why we cant read Gods word, and believe what he tells us.

We who are truly born again, are kept by the power of God. 2 Timothy 1:12 and 1Peter 1:5

Well for one thing, what does "truly born again" mean ? The Bible does not tell us that you are born again and that is it. Nor does it ever mention truly born again. Born from above, is more correct and that is a continues process, not a once off event.

You mention 1Pe 1:4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

There is no mention of eternal security in salvation in either scriptures you mention. It does speak of our inheritance that is guarded through faith UNTO a salvation.

We are never just "born again", we are all being born from above all the time. You and I can stop this at any time.

Cornelius - I can point to a one-time event in my life that I was given eternal life.

As the seed of man grows within a woman, in the fullness of time it brings forth new life at a time that we call our birth. So I believe the Holy Spirit is like a seed that brings about events which lead to the birth of man's spirit. It is the point at which we pass from death to life - eternal life.

And since the birth of our spirit is the gift of God - bestowed upon those to whom He chooses, man cannot 'lose' the gift. The 'gift' of God is without repentance.

Man cannot be 'unborn.' He will remain forever God's child.

However, that is not to say that there will not be those who despise the gift and who turn back to trying to achieve a righteousness that is not of faith. This is blasphemy of the Spirit - something that only those who are born of the Spirit can do.

 

[Cornelius]

Cornelius - I can point to a one-time event in my life that I was given eternal life.

As the seed of man grows within a woman, in the fullness of time it brings forth new life at a time that we call our birth. So I believe the Holy Spirit is like a seed that brings about events which lead to the birth of man's spirit. It is the point at which we pass from death to life - eternal life.

And since the birth of our spirit is the gift of God - bestowed upon those to whom He chooses, man cannot 'lose' the gift. The 'gift' of God is without repentance.

Man cannot be 'unborn.' He will remain forever God's child.

However, that is not to say that there will not be those who despise the gift and who turn back to trying to achieve a righteousness that is not of faith. This is blasphemy of the Spirit - something that only those who are born of the Spirit can do.

The Bible never calls the Holy Spirit "seed" The Bible calls the Word (Bible) seed.

The "one-time event" you are talking about is the day God saved your spirit.(not your soul)

Your soul (mind, emotions , thoughts) must still be saved

Rom 12:2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

and lastly God will save your body when you receive a new one. (You do know that you body is not saved at this moment yet?)

People think salvation is a one-time event. When you prayed a little prayer and went forward or "invited Jesus into your heart" . That is not what the Bible teaches at all. Salvation is Christ.

Only those who truly have died to self (to the flesh) and are bearing the fruit of Christ, thirty, sixty or a hundred fold will go to heaven.(Mat 13:8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. ) Notice the "bad soil" also received the Word (they were Christians) but they produced no fruit. They do not go to heaven.

No fruit = no heaven

 

[Cornelius]

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: ...... (Why "make sure"if it is already sure? )

Now the KJV say "so" where the ASV says "thus". So here is the method for entering the Kingdom (eternal life) but first see that this scripture surely says that "thus" shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom...............

2Pe 1:11 for thus (so) shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Do you know what it says in the context? What is needed for you to be sure?
C

 

[Joe67]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

Isa 63:17
17 Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage. NASU

Joe

 

[whirlwind]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

Isa 63:17
17 Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage. NASU

Joe

Good morning Joe,

I stand corrected....He will leave us but there are conditions. The verse you quoted does show Him leaving the "tribes of Your heritage," but it was because they first left Him....

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed His holy Spirit: therefore He was turned to be their enemy, and He fought against them.

To me, that example is the same thing that will happen in the future....

11 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Cornelius]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

Isa 63:17
17 Why, O LORD, do You cause us to stray from Your ways
And harden our heart from fearing You?
Return for the sake of Your servants, the tribes of Your heritage. NASU

Joe

That is correct. God is sovereign. We only serve Him, because He causes us to serve Him. He hardens the hearts of some, and gives grace to whosoever He wants to. This makes some say: "Oh well, then what can I do, I will just live the way I please until He causes me to walk in His ways" That is a sign, that God is indeed not causing them to walk in His ways, at that time.

Our FRUIT, shows what God is doing in our lives. Ye shall know them by their fruit.

 

[Cornelius]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Isa 45:8 Distil, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, that it may bring forth salvation, and let it cause righteousness to spring up together; I, Jehovah, have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! a potsherd among the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Being sovereign means you do as you please.Nothing is out of your control. You are all powerful.

 

[Joe67]

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: ...... (Why "make sure"if it is already sure? )

Now the KJV say "so" where the ASV says "thus". So here is the method for entering the Kingdom (eternal life) but first see that this scripture surely says that "thus" shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom...............

2Pe 1:11 for thus (so) shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Do you know what it says in the context? What is needed for you to be sure?
C

2 Peter 1:4-11
4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in (your) virtue knowledge;
6 and in (your) knowledge self-control; and in (your) self-control patience; and in (your) patience godliness;
7 and in (your) godliness brotherly kindness; and in (your) brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. ASV

First we must needs to have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust; the lusts of the flesh and the lusts of the eye. This comes through blood and water, altar and laver.

Then we are granted the earnest of our inheritance; whereby the growth in grace is supplied. Some are idle in the marketplace until the 11th hour, because no one has hired them (as Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy 28:68). Only the first workers had a contract of a specified amount. Those who were called in the 3rd, 6th, 9th and 11th hour were authorized to work and the master of the vineyard said he would do what is right to them. This authority comes in the holy place of the gifts of the spirit. Some gifts are like unleavened bread, some like burning oil, some like incense. These are still the downpayment of our promised salvation which is to be granted to us at the return of Jesus our Lord.

The visible church is the marketplace of the Lord. All are not called at the same time. The terms of their service are not the same for all. Those who were called first we not satisfied with the results, like the elder son in the story of the prodigal son in Luke 15.

Joe

 

[Cornelius]

So in simple language: what is needed to gain entrance into eternal life according to 2Peter 1 ?

FRUIT.

How do we get fruit?
We apply the promises and believe and confess them:

2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

Then, next step: We use faith and through that faith, we add the FRUIT:
2Pe 1:5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then it tells us if we forget the FRUIT, we have forgotten our salvation:

2Pe 1:9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.

Now it tells us WHY this is written, so that we can make both our "calling" AND our "election" sure


2Pe 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:

And here is the result of the Fruit:

2Pe 1:11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


NO FRUIT = no entrance. But first you must start the race (as Paul calls it) Later God will decide if you had fruit, when He comes to pick your fruit.

 

[XTruth]

Can you lose your salvation? :gah

Yes. He will never leave us but we can leave Him.

No offense, but that doesn't make sense. The question should be "If saved, always saved?".

God never leaves us or forsakes us even if we forsake Him for a time. When we let go, God still is holding on. We may backslide away from God for a time, but that doesn't mean we lose our salvation. If all of a sudden someone decides to stop following God the rest of his life, chances are he wasn't a true believer to begin with.

I am sure many will disagree over what I said and I can respect that. I wish not debate this issue, but suffice to say this:

I serve God who never lets go even when I am weak.

:amen

"And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you (2 Chr.15:2)."

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me (Mat.10:38)." We drop the passions of the flesh and the sinful desires of our heart in order to pick up the cross and follow Jesus. At any time, we are very capable and able to drop the cross and pick up the desires of the flesh. Yes, those people were saved, but the sin they went back to condemns them again. Isn't that what sin always does (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:32-33; Eze.18:4, 20-26; Rom.6:16-23; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Jas.1:15; 1 Jn.3:4; Rev.21:7-8; etc)?


"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God (Lk.9:62)."

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him (Heb.10:38)."

 

[whirlwind]

"And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you (2 Chr.15:2)."

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me (Mat.10:38)." We drop the passions of the flesh and the sinful desires of our heart in order to pick up the cross and follow Jesus. At any time, we are very capable and able to drop the cross and pick up the desires of the flesh. Yes, those people were saved, but the sin they went back to condemns them again. Isn't that what sin always does (Gen.2:17; Ex.32:32-33; Eze.18:4, 20-26; Rom.6:16-23; 1 Cor.6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; 6:7-8; Jas.1:15; 1 Jn.3:4; Rev.21:7-8; etc)?


"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God (Lk.9:62)."

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him (Heb.10:38)."

A great selection of verses that carry the answer to this topic.

 

[Joe67]

Whirlwind,

Our Lord said, "I have chosen you 12 but 1 of you will betray me."

In his last prayer in the garden our Lord said, "...and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17:12.

Joe