Once Saved, Always Saved?

[bibleMAN]

Hey there, I've been interested in this topic and I'd love to hear what you guys think! I am ALWAYS open to changing and refining the details of my beliefs if someone can really show me that I'm not understanding something in the Bible correctly, so please, if you see me making any logical errors here, please point them out.

The idea of "Once saved, always saved" is a pretty common belief it seems, that once we come to Christ and are "Saved" that our eternal salvation is guaranteed from that point on, no matter what we do.

People often support this idea by saying "Your works can not buy you a place in heaven" or "God's grace is sufficient" and of course those statements are true.

Our works can not qualify us for being saved.. Only the sacrifice of Christ was enough to buy our salvation.

Here's the problem I see with the idea that we could be eternally saved the first time we are saved: it takes away our free will.

God has given us free will to choose to believe or to WANT to belong to Him or not.

If a person is saved at a young age but then decides later in life that his heart has changed and he openly rejects God and rejects the desire to receive eternal life, would that not, by his own free will, put him in a place where he is not saved anymore?

Imagine a person who is saved at a very young age, but grows up to change paths and becomes a murderer, and also rejects God, the son and the Holy Spirit and never repents for his sins but enjoys them and seeks them out... Would he still be saved?

I can already hear it, "But if he was REALLLLY saved then he wouldn't have done that!"

This is a fallacy, becuase it suggests that once you have been saved, you NO LONGER HAVE FREE WILL to commit terrible sins or to have a change of heart and reject God.

Being saved does not stop us from being sinful. But when we are saved we repent to God for our sins, and most importantly we still believe in Jesus Christ and God.

But if our faith disappears and we no longer believe in God or repent for our sins, then I believe we are not saved anymore.

Here are some scriptures that really show that salvation CAN be taken away:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
John 3:16

So does this mean that whoever believes in him for one single moment is saved for his whole life? If you believe in "Once saved, always saved" then that means that if Hitler BELIEVED in Jesus for even one moment or one day, he was saved despite what he did.

Again, you can't argue that "if he was really saved he never would have done that" because that would suggest that being saved means you no longer have free will to commit atrocious crimes, which is not true. We have free will at ALL times, whether we are saved or not, and saved people still have the ability to sin and turn away from God.

So if hitler was saved in his youth, which option is truth?
1) He remained saved his whole life even while trying to murder entire ethnic groups
2) He gave up his salvation because of his extreme sins and becuase he strayed from God.

Revelation 22:
"And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

Here we see that anyone who takes away from the Bible will forfeit their salvation.

What this suggests is that though our works can not buy us INTO heaven, our bad works can certainty buy our way OUT of heaven. Just like the 1/3 angels who sided with satan, chose sin and rejected God's sovereignty, which got them the boot out of heaven.

There are also examples in the Bible of people who lost their salvation (Judas)

The bottom line is this... People who are saved still sin, but they repent and still believe in Christ and so Jesus' sacrifice and the Grace of God is enough.

But what if they don't repent and they reject God?

"Once saved, always saved" means that once a person is saved, it doesn't matter what they do... even if deny God, murder, have affiars, break the rules, stop paying attention to the scriptures they don't like and never repent for any of this, they will still go to heaven and be saved.

Jesus said this:

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This scripture shows that even though people will do MIRACLES in the name of Christ, he will still say to them "I never knew you".

So, if a person is saved but then goes on to stop believing in God and live an uncontrolled life on sin, is it likely that they will keep their salvation?

EDIT: Just thought of another scripture which, to me, really supports the idea that we CAN lose our salvation:

"I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."
- 1 Corinthians 9:27

This is Paul talking about self control. He is saying that he controls his body so "that... I myself will not be disqualified for the prize."

This shows that there is a chance he might be disqualified from the prize if he doesn't control himself. It shows that Paul was aware that his salvation was not "guaranteed."

While in his current standing he may be saved, that is conditional on whether he continues believing in God and repenting for sin.

 

[dentonz]

The idea of "Once saved, always saved" is a pretty common belief it seems, that once we come to Christ and are "Saved" that our eternal salvation is guaranteed from that point on, no matter what we do.

I am from the camp that leans on your side of the fence on this issue. However, I don't believe a true reformed 5 point Calvinist would take your argument too seriously.

First off, to address this issue, we must look at it from their perspective. The doctrine is "Eternal Security", not OSAS. Also, it appears that you are looking at salvation as an act that we can do. The doctrine of Eternal Security has to do with what God does through Christ. If God saves us then we are saved...that's it. Just because someone professes to be a Christian, or goes to church, or goes down to the alter, once in their life does not mean that they were/are saved.

 

[francisdesales]

I am from the camp that leans on your side of the fence on this issue. However, I don't believe a true reformed 5 point Calvinist would take your argument too seriously.

First off, to address this issue, we must look at it from their perspective. The doctrine is "Eternal Security", not OSAS. Also, it appears that you are looking at salvation as an act that we can do. The doctrine of Eternal Security has to do with what God does through Christ. If God saves us then we are saved...that's it. Just because someone professes to be a Christian, or goes to church, or goes down to the alter, once in their life does not mean that they were/are saved.

I am wondering how such a one can differentiate between OSAS and Eternal security, without resorting to confusing semantics. Practically speaking, I see little difference.

If one considers that they are of the elect (from a Calvinistic definition), it is in effect the same as OSAS, because God has eternally selected you for eternal rewards. Thus, once you know you are saved, you are always saved, nothing, not even God Himself, can change that...

At the end of the day, once "they" declare "themselves saved, they will always be saved for eternal life (according to either OSAS or Eternal security/Preservation of the Saints). The problem is that people are usurping God's Sovereignty by declaring that they are eternally saved, when the Bible clearly says all will be judged, to include Christians, based upon their response to God. If even Christians can be disqualified (PAUL???!!!), what arrogance to make such an absolute declaration that bypasses Judgment.

Regards

 

[dentonz]

I am wondering how such a one can differentiate between OSAS and Eternal security, without resorting to confusing semantics. Practically speaking, I see little difference.

If one considers that they are of the elect (from a Calvinistic definition), it is in effect the same as OSAS, because God has eternally selected you for eternal rewards. Thus, once you know you are saved, you are always saved, nothing, not even God Himself, can change that...

At the end of the day, once "they" declare "themselves saved, they will always be saved for eternal life (according to either OSAS or Eternal security/Preservation of the Saints). The problem is that people are usurping God's Sovereignty by declaring that they are eternally saved, when the Bible clearly says all will be judged, to include Christians, based upon their response to God. If even Christians can be disqualified (PAUL???!!!), what arrogance to make such an absolute declaration that bypasses Judgment.

Regards

Okay I'll take the OSAS side of this. The very statement where you said "they declare themselves saved" shows a complete misunderstanding of the doctrine. The sheep don't declare anything. They are because God says they are. And actually it usurps God's authority to say that the sheep have anything at all to do with our own salvation.

 

[bibleMAN]

They are because God says they are. And actually it usurps God's authority to say that the sheep have anything at all to do with our own salvation.

Well about this, the Bible says "Those who believe" so the sheep must believe, it's something they must do to gain everlasting life.

Also:

Paul says:

"I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." - 1 Corinthians 9:27

This scripture shows that there is a chance that he could be disqualified for the prize and thus Biblically disproves the possibility of "Once saved always saved" imho.

 

[francisdesales]

Okay I'll take the OSAS side of this. The very statement where you said "they declare themselves saved" shows a complete misunderstanding of the doctrine. The sheep don't declare anything. They are because God says they are. And actually it usurps God's authority to say that the sheep have anything at all to do with our own salvation.

Just SAYING your are a sheep means nothing, in the bigger picture... I understand the picture, alright, and have argued against it for years. It is just another half-truth presented by some. By saying "I believe in Jesus" is not enough (Matt 7:21).

If your faith is not working in love, you are nothing but a clanging gong... (1 cor 13:2-3).

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

Paul says:

"I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." - 1 Corinthians 9:27

This scripture shows that there is a chance that he could be disqualified for the prize and thus Biblically disproves the possibility of "Once saved always saved" imho.

I'm not so sure about that. First of all, "I beat my body and make it my slave" - what does that MEAN? Answer that first, then we can continue.

I am not at all sure "the prize" is salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

Well about this, the Bible says "Those who believe" so the sheep must believe, it's something they must do to gain everlasting life.

Jesus' definition of "believe" includes much more than just simply acknowledging a theological truth and "carry on, eat, drink and be merry"... That is beyond doubt.

Unfortunately, the OSAS people separate faith from love, thinking "faith alone without love" saves. This mindset leads to the clanging gong syndrome...

This scripture shows that there is a chance that he could be disqualified for the prize and thus Biblically disproves the possibility of "Once saved always saved" imho.

I agree that the Bible indicates that a person can be disqualifed from eternal life. That is why OSAS is an improper reading of Scriptures. James speaks of that by reminding people that faith (mere belief) is not enough. Paul, Peter and John gives examples of it. Jesus also forecasts this event a number of times.

Regards

 

[Drew]

People often support this idea by saying "Your works can not buy you a place in heaven" or "God's grace is sufficient" and of course those statements are true.

Our works can not qualify us for being saved.. Only the sacrifice of Christ was enough to buy our salvation.

Not quite. Here in Romans 2, Paul makes it very clear that the awarding of eternal life is indeed based on "how we live":

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

A rather clear and unambiguous statement - you get eternal life based on "what you have done".

Now, to be fair, Paul will later go on to tell us that the Holy Spirit is the engine that is responsible for these "saving" works. And one only gets the Spirit through faith. But Paul says what he says - final salvation is based on good works.

 

[Eventide]

I think that we often get SALVATION mixed up with REWARDS for service.

We cannot earn salvation although we can earn rewards.. and we can lose rewards... Paul speaks of this in 2 Cor 3 and he speaks of losing rewards but not salvation.

The only thing which we must do to be saved is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ... but imo, most (including multitudes of professing Christians don't believe what the LORD plainly says in His word..

Case in point..

"There are none good but one, and that is God."

I would suggest that many professing Christians don't believe this to be true at all.. and yet it's what the word of God declares in simplicity and in truth.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I think that we often get SALVATION mixed up with REWARDS for service.

We cannot earn salvation although we can earn rewards.. and we can lose rewards... Paul speaks of this in 2 Cor 3 and he speaks of losing rewards but not salvation.

The only thing which we must do to be saved is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ

Exactly, Eventide. Well stated.

 

[Drew]

I think that we often get SALVATION mixed up with REWARDS for service.

Does Paul say that we get "rewards" for "how we live" in the following text, or does he say we get eternal life?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Paul speaks of this in 2 Cor 3 and he speaks of losing rewards but not salvation.

I think you meant 1 Cor 3, not 2 Cor 3.

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 to support the argument that there will be a “rewards†judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

Here is the text, set in context:

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here. The "we" are not, repeat not, all believers. And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.
This text nowhere addresses any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

The text is what it is - to generalize what Paul is saying is not proper exegesis. Paul is addressing a very specific issue – the responsibilities of church leaders and how they will not lose their salvation if they fail at those specific responsibilities. He is not making a general theological statement – that is something people “read inâ€.

Its all about honouring context - while this 1 Cor 3 text is often used to suggest that "works don't matter" unto salvation, a proper treatment of what Paul is actually talking about shows that this use of the text is incorrect.

 

[Drew]

The only thing which we must do to be saved is to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ...

How, then, do you explain this statement?:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Pizzaguy]

How, then, do you explain this statement?:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The following not directed specifically to Drew, but to those who are carrying this 'torch'...

By not twisting it's meaning, that's how. Those who accept Christ and attempt to live up to what He instructed us to do ARE persisting in doing good. Those who reject the Lord and still try to do good are not "seeking glory" and therefore the statement does not apply to them.

But here we have the heart of the matter - the taking of ONE VERSE and using it alone to prove what you think, what you believe - or what you WANT to believe.

Read your Bible and see what the overall message is: it is one of God's love, His reaching out to mankind on a personal level, as does a parent with a child. It does not depict a maze, a series of complicated tests and traps that one may easily fail at without even realizing it, as you (plural) are implying.

Careful, you guys are coming close to "adding" to the word of God.

 

[Eventide]

How, then, do you explain this statement?:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

That's what I mean... God's not going to 'repay' or reward us in order to be saved... that's like working to earn salvation isn't it.. and if that were true, then why did Christ suffer and die for our sins.. if we could earn or merit that..? it's reward or payment for service to Him.. at least imo.

 

[Elijah674]

Pizz.., says in part:
'Read your Bible and see what the overall message is: it is one of God's love, His reaching out to mankind on a personal level, as does a parent with a child. It does not depict a maze, a series of complicated tests and traps that one may easily fail at without even realizing it, as you (plural) are implying.

Careful, you guys are coming close to "adding" to the word of God. '


From the start of Gods Word with forbidden fruite, to the End Testing of 666, the Godhead saves NO ONE unless His Obedient Condition's for Salvation are met!

One can shout only beliv'ism day in & day out, yet a SICK 'LUKEWARM' LOVE merits [NOTHING] more than talk talk & more talk! Rev. 3:16

--Elijah

PS: And if anyone thinks that the question was about the Godheads Love??? They best re/read the Pizz ones 'posted' question!

 

[Drew]

The following not directed specifically to Drew, but to those who are carrying this 'torch'...

By not twisting it's meaning, that's how.

How am I twisting meaning?

What does Paul actually say:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

PizzaGuy: What is it, precisely that Paul says God will give?

PizzaGuy: And on what basis, precisely does Paul say this "something" will be given?

Those who accept Christ and attempt to live up to what He instructed us to do ARE persisting in doing good.

True, of course. But there is no way of changing what Paul actually writes - to those who persist in doing good, he will give eternal life. That's Paul's, not me.

But here we have the heart of the matter - the taking of ONE VERSE and using it alone to prove what you think, what you believe - or what you WANT to believe.

Is the verse I quoted not part of inspired scripture? I am sorry that it does not cohere with your view, but I will go with what Paul says on the matter.

Whatever else is true, Paul will not be muzzled - it is to those who persist in doing good that God will give eternal life.

Why do you think that Paul does not mean exactly what he says?

Read your Bible and see what the overall message is: it is one of God's love, His reaching out to mankind on a personal level, as does a parent with a child. It does not depict a maze, a series of complicated tests and traps that one may easily fail at without even realizing it, as you (plural) are implying.

I am afraid you will need to take this up with Paul - he says what he says: eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good. Now Paul says a lot of other things that I suspect you and I will agree on. But we cannot ignore Romans 2, even though many in the reformed tradition try to sweep it under the rug.

Again - the meaning of the text is clear; eternal life is given "according to what we have, yes, done. That's Paul, not me speaking.

Careful, you guys are coming close to "adding" to the word of God.

On the contrary, it is I (and others like fds) who actually take everything Paul says seriously - we do not exclude the parts we do not like.

 

[Eventide]

Does Paul say that we get "rewards" for "how we live" in the following text, or does he say we get eternal life?

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


I think you meant 1 Cor 3, not 2 Cor 3.

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 to support the argument that there will be a “rewards†judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.

Here is the text, set in context:

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here. The "we" are not, repeat not, all believers. And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.
This text nowhere addresses any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

The text is what it is - to generalize what Paul is saying is not proper exegesis. Paul is addressing a very specific issue – the responsibilities of church leaders and how they will not lose their salvation if they fail at those specific responsibilities. He is not making a general theological statement – that is something people “read inâ€.

Its all about honouring context - while this 1 Cor 3 text is often used to suggest that "works don't matter" unto salvation, a proper treatment of what Paul is actually talking about shows that this use of the text is incorrect.

You believe that the text 1 Cor 3 (thanks for the correction) only applies to 'leaders'..? I'm not sure what you mean exactly by leaders although Paul teaches us that the Head of every man is Christ.. not a leader in the assembly. Thank God for elders and for those who do minister to the Lord's people, although I completely disagree that this context speaks of 'leaders' and not the entire body of Christ.. for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

 

[Drew]

That's what I mean... God's not going to 'repay' or reward us in order to be saved... that's like working to earn salvation isn't it.. and if that were true, then why did Christ suffer and die for our sins.. if we could earn or merit that..? it's reward or payment for service to Him.. at least imo.

You are not really answering the question. The text I posted says what it says.

And is that God will give eternal life, yes, eternal to those who "persist in doing good and seek glory and honour and immortality".

Now you should know that I believe that Paul also believes that it is only through the free grace gift of the Holy Spirit that people can do this.

But Paul says what he says - eternal life is given on the basis of behaviour.

 

[jasoncran]

i wonder if the non-osas side,will puff their chest in heaven and say to the those who did less miracles and say look at me i'm a better christian then you.

if works get you in then why the need for the cross.?
surely you could sacrifice the animals and do the same.
both require daily repentance.