Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Eventide]

You are not really answering the question. The text I posted says what it says.

So just to be sure I understand you.. you believe that you are working for your salvation ? Is that correct and accurate ?

Then may I ask what Christ died for with respect to salvation.. ie, did He save us x% and then we need to do the rest ?

And is that God will give eternal life, yes, eternal to those who "persist in doing good and seek glory and honour and immortality".

And GOD is the only one who is good according to the bible right ? So how could YOU doing good save you if you're not good ?

This is what I meant earlier when I said that many in Christendom don't even believe some of the simple truths of scripture..

Now you should know that I believe that Paul also believes that it is only through the free grace gift of the Holy Spirit that people can do this.

But Paul says what he says - eternal life is given on the basis of behaviour.

And so could a person do good without CHRIST and be saved for it ?

 

[Drew]

You believe that the text 1 Cor 3 (thanks for the correction) only applies to 'leaders'..? I'm not sure what you mean exactly by leaders although Paul teaches us that the Head of every man is Christ.. not a leader in the assembly.

You are appealing to other texts and not engaging the content of the argument. The fact is that if we pay careful attention to what Paul actually writes, and do not go beyond what he writes, we see that Paul here is saying that those who fail in their task of church leadership will not lose salvation for that reason. To suggest that Paul is speaking universally about how a person can be saved even if they do no good works is simply to not honour what Paul actually says here.

... for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

Are you aware that you are importing something from somewhere else? The fact we must all appear at the judgement seat does not mean that, in this specific text from 1 Corinthians 3, Paul is talking about mankind in general.

 

[Pizzaguy]

How am I twisting meaning?

I think eventide says it best:
God's not going to 'repay' or reward us in order to be saved... that's like working to earn salvation isn't it.. and if that were true, then why did Christ suffer and die for our sins.. if we could earn or merit that..? it's reward or payment for service to Him..

Now, as to this:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

I have always believed that our time in heaven, that is, our life there, is dependant on the life we have led. My "room" that Jesus prepares for me is not going to the the room he prepares for, say, Billy Graham or sister Teresa!! But it is probably more than what the man on the cross next to him got!

My faith in Jesus, my calling on His name and believing in His salvation -and my accepting that gift gets me in the door. What YOU are referring to is "the prize" waiting for me, what do you think the phrase "according to what they have done" means?

Sounds to me like we are rewarded according to what we've done, our service to others, our giving, the love we show to others. But "according to what they have done" does NOT refer to salvation.

THAT is what I am saying.
And it is ALL that I am saying.

And you are correct, we, I am sure, agree on a lot, on probably most everything.


Ok, done editing now.

 

[Pizzaguy]

But Paul says what he says - eternal life is given on the basis of behaviour.

WOW! Never thought I'd read that on a Christian forum.

So, what did Jesus die for? What did He accomplish on the cross?

Anything?

 

[Drew]

So just to be sure I understand you.. you believe that you are working for your salvation ? Is that correct and accurate ?

Not exactly. I believe everything that Paul writes. So I believe what he writes in Romans 2 - that it is those who persist in doing good that will get eternal life. But I also believe the other things that Paul says, things like "faith in Christ guarantees salvation". And the stuff from Romans 8 about how the people who escape the grip of mortality do so thanks to the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

So the works that "save" at the end are produced not so much by "us" as by the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Again, Paul writes what he writes!

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Then may I ask what Christ died for with respect to salvation.. ie, did He save us x% and then we need to do the rest ?

From reading what I just wrote, you will know that I do not believe that "my" works will save me - I believe works produced in me by the Holy Spirit will save.

And I believe in the sufficiency of Jesus' work on the cross - those who accept Jesus' sacrificial death are guaranteed the Spirit. And, as per Romans 8, the Spirit transforms you so that you escape mortality. Again, I am only following Paul.

This is what I meant earlier when I said that many in Christendom don't even believe some of the simple truths of scripture..

Hey, its not me who doesn't take Romans 2:6-7 seriously.

 

[Drew]

WOW! Never thought I'd read that on a Christian forum.

You mean something like this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I am sorry that this statement from Paul, not Drew, gives you trouble. You appear to not believe this statement.

Why not?

 

[Sam21]

When one truly commits their life to God and calls on Jesus to be their Savior then God forgives the persons sins and gives the indwelling Holy Spirit, now that person remains saved unless God calls back His indwelling Holy Spirit because God cannot deny Himself. If that particular person actually rejected Christ and became a Muslim(this has happened)then that person has almost certainly lost their salvation. I say ALMOST because only God can call His Spirit back and the person is not lost until that takes place.
Something else, if a Spirit indwelt believer actually offends God to the degree that God calls back His Spirit then that person is lost forever because you can only be born again one time.

 

[Eventide]

We have an example of a rich man coming to Jesus and asking Him about an inheritance.. eternal life. The man tells the Lord that he HAS kept all the things which were required of him even from his youth.. then the Lord tells him that if he would be perfect.. to sell all that he had and give it to the poor, and then to come and to follow Him..

Jesus says that if any man comes after HIM that he must DENY HIMSELF and take up his cross and follow Him, for if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it and that if we lose it for HIM and the gospel that we shall find it.

Perhaps some of the most solemn words in the bible.. and many can't get over that one hump... that they are NOT GOOD... and that in order to have true life you must die.

Experience should show us day in and day out that we are not good and that He is... for He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

I think that this is the bottom line is this kind of debate.. that people actually think and believe that THEY are good... because how in the world could your good works save you if you're not good ?

Our exceeding and great reward is Christ Himself... Christ in us, our hope of glory.. it's not me and Christ, it's Christ in me.. for I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..

 

[Eventide]

From reading what I just wrote, you will know that I do not believe that "my" works will save me - I believe works produced in me by the Holy Spirit will save.

And I believe in the sufficiency of Jesus' work on the cross - those who accept Jesus' sacrificial death are guaranteed the Spirit. And, as per Romans 8, the Spirit transforms you so that you escape mortality. Again, I am only following Paul.

Then I think that we're in agreement.

 

[Pizzaguy]

You mean something like this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

I am sorry that this statement from Paul, not Drew, gives you trouble. You appear to not believe this statement.

Drew, you are not clever and are not this stupid - I have clearly stated my opinion.

Now, do you have the intellect and guts to answer my question from post 24 or not?

Let me restate it:

So, what did Jesus die for? What did He accomplish on the cross?

It's an easy question for me - he died for my sins. It is done, I need not die for them myself. (I am called to die TO them, sure.)

But, what is your answer? You have made it clear that you think I must earn my salvation - so what did Jesus do on the cross?

 

[francisdesales]

Drew, you are not clever and are not this stupid - I have clearly stated my opinion.

Now, do you have the intellect and guts to answer my question from post 24 or not?

Let me restate it:

So, what did Jesus die for? What did He accomplish on the cross?

It's an easy question for me - he died for my sins. It is done, I need not die for them myself. (I am called to die TO them, sure.)

But, what is your answer? You have made it clear that you think I must earn my salvation - so what did Jesus do on the cross?

The death of Jesus on the cross proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God loves man. EXTRAVAGANTLY...

He didn't die so we wouldn't have to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling..."

Regards

 

[Eventide]

He didn't die so we wouldn't have to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling..."Regards

How can you 'work out' that which you don't have ?

Or do you believe that you are saved as long as you do good ? What about the bad days.. do we then need to get saved again and maintain that... sounds horrible.. how'd you measure up to CHRIST today... did you come up a little short or did you finally hit the mark ?

 

[Pizzaguy]

The death of Jesus on the cross proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God loves man. EXTRAVAGANTLY...

He didn't die so we wouldn't have to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling..."

Regards

I did not ask what He didn't do, I asked what he did - what did He accomplish, anything? Was He just trying to get our attention, or did He pay a price for our sins? Did He, as it were, make amends for us?

Oh, forget it - this is a waste of time. I THOUGHT I was on a forum where the ONE thing we all agreed on was the basic tenant of Christianity: That Jesus died for our sins, and provided a path to the Father. Hmmm, come to think of it, He said, "No one comes to the Father but by me".

Oh, well. I leave you to your trolling... I have a thread to start concerning science. (This will take SOME time to put together.)

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Here are some questions one must first answer in order to properly deal with this subject.

1. From what am a being saved?
2. When is this salvation realized?
3. On this side of life, are ANY saved, or are there instead those of us who are undergoing the process of being saved?

 

[bibleMAN]

No-one here thinks works can get you into heaven.

Only Christ's sacrifice on the cross can get us there.

But I believe to be eligible for that gift of eternal life, we DO have to live up to a few requirements. They are not works (like miracles or good deeds) they are things required for us to be eligible to get into heaven. After all, the sacrifice will not save EVERYONE even though it gives everyone the equal opportunity to be saved.

One thing we need to do to be saved is that we believe in Christ. This is something that, according to the Bible, we simply must do in order to be saved.

The second thing, I believe, is repentance for sins.. I believe that we must repent our sin/sinful nature in order to be saved

And I think we always have the free will to stop believing in God and thus lose our gift from Jesus.

1. From what am a being saved?

From our old destiny of eternal separation from God. That was the consequence of our sin, but because of what Jesus did on the Cross, we have a CHANCE to escape that fate and spend eternity with God.

2. When is this salvation realized?

I believe salvation is only guaranteed after we die and we have been saved once and for all, after God Himself has judged us (not based on our "works" but based on our belief and repentance for sin). Once we are in heaven then we know our salvation is guaranteed 100%, because God has judged this so.

3. On this side of life, are ANY saved, or are there instead those of us who are undergoing the process of being saved?

I believe that in this life there are none that are "100% saved"... It's up to God to judge us when we die, so to say you're 100% saved already is to say you already know how God is going to judge you..It's to presume you are as wise a judge as God and know your own heart as well as He knows it. Jesus said that people will come to him and he will say "I never knew you" which shows that there are people out there who think they are saved but are probably not.

The thing is, at any point before death a person could turn their back on God. So they don't know FOR SURE that they're saved till the end, I think. I could be wrong but that is what I think at the moment.

 

[Elijah674]

No-one here thinks works can get you into heaven.

Only Christ's sacrifice on the cross can get us there.

But I believe to be eligible for that gift of eternal life, we DO have to live up to a few requirements. They are not works (like miracles or good deeds) they are things required for us to be eligible to get into heaven. After all, the sacrifice will not save EVERYONE even though it gives everyone the equal opportunity to be saved.

One thing we need to do to be saved is that we believe in Christ. This is something that, according to the Bible, we simply must do in order to be saved.

The second thing, I believe, is repentance for sins.. I believe that we must repent our sin/sinful nature in order to be saved

And I think we always have the free will to stop believing in God and thus lose our gift from Jesus.



From our old destiny of eternal separation from God. That was the consequence of our sin, but because of what Jesus did on the Cross, we have a CHANCE to escape that fate and spend eternity with God.


I believe salvation is only guaranteed after we die and we have been saved once and for all, after God Himself has judged us (not based on our "works" but based on our belief and repentance for sin). Once we are in heaven then we know our salvation is guaranteed 100%, because God has judged this so.


I believe that in this life there are none that are "100% saved"... It's up to God to judge us when we die, so to say you're 100% saved already is to say you already know how God is going to judge you..It's to presume you are as wise a judge as God and know your own heart as well as He knows it. Jesus said that people will come to him and he will say "I never knew you" which shows that there are people out there who think they are saved but are probably not.

The thing is, at any point before death a person could turn their back on God. So they don't know FOR SURE that they're saved till the end, I think. I could be wrong but that is what I think at the moment.

Until Christ's High Priest's work is finished we will not be saved other than [by Faith] IN HIM. And if His work was already FINISHED? We would not be dieing in our physical body. (Mark 2:9)
And Heb. 11:13 records that these ALL are dead, and died only as recorded here.. IN THE FAITH. SAVED?? Sure! Yet, they were recorded as such because God did so! (Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse)

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

How can you 'work out' that which you don't have ?

Or do you believe that you are saved as long as you do good ? What about the bad days.. do we then need to get saved again and maintain that... sounds horrible.. how'd you measure up to CHRIST today... did you come up a little short or did you finally hit the mark ?

Christianity is not a zero-sum game, where it is God vs me. We don't "assign" each party a percentage of who has done what. Christianity is about participation in the works of God. God draws us into Himself. Thus, we "work out your salvation in fear and trembling, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13.


Do works save? No, but if you think you are going to heaven WITHOUT doing works of love, then you have totally missed the point of the reason why Christ came in the first place.

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

Until Christ's High Priest's work is finished we will not be saved other than [by Faith] IN HIM. And if His work was already FINISHED? We would not be dieing in our physical body. (Mark 2:9)

--Elijah

But what did He mean when he said, "It is finished" on the cross, just as he died?

 

[handy]

Christianity is not a zero-sum game, where it is God vs me. We don't "assign" each party a percentage of who has done what. Christianity is about participation in the works of God. God draws us into Himself. Thus, we "work out your salvation in fear and trembling, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13.


Do works save? No, but if you think you are going to heaven WITHOUT doing works of love, then you have totally missed the point of the reason why Christ came in the first place.

Regards

Amen!

 

[francisdesales]

I did not ask what He didn't do, I asked what he did - what did He accomplish, anything?

I wrote a short post. The first sentence answers your question...

God was not forced to send His only Son to die for us to save us from sin. That was the means He CHOSE.

Was He just trying to get our attention, or did He pay a price for our sins? Did He, as it were, make amends for us?

God could have chosen a number of ways to forgive us of sins. My sentence best describes the "motivation" of the work of Christ.

Oh, forget it - this is a waste of time. I THOUGHT I was on a forum where the ONE thing we all agreed on was the basic tenant of Christianity: That Jesus died for our sins, and provided a path to the Father. Hmmm, come to think of it, He said, "No one comes to the Father but by me".

You are on a Christian forum. However, it appears that there is some disagreement on why Christ died. You have turned an extravagant act of love into some court room legality. Who was DEMANDING this payment of the Father?

I don't recall anyone here saying we can go to the Father without Christ...

Oh, well. I leave you to your trolling... I have a thread to start concerning science. (This will take SOME time to put together.)

Trolling? Because I disagree with you, I'm a troll????

Maybe you are in the wrong place. This is an Apologetic section.

Regards