Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Pizzaguy]

I wrote a short post. The first sentence answers your question...

More trolling.

ANSWER THE QUESTION - what did Christ do on the cross? What was His blood shed for?

Please don't dance around it, I am sorry you feel trapped by the question, and if you DON'T feel trapped, then answer the question.

EDIT: Forget it, I see your answer above, you are not what I call a Christian. To me, a Christian is a person who calls upon the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins. A Christian believes in and accepts Christ's redemptive act on the cross as the only path to salvation. It is God Himself who demands this (in answer to your question above).

His was a great act of love, as was God's act of sending him - but it was way more than that.

You are no troll, you simply don't believe in or accept Christ as Savior. I retract my "troll" accusation, again, I did not think anyone who called themselves a Christian would deny Christ's redemptive work on the cross.

 

[Eventide]

Christianity is not a zero-sum game, where it is God vs me. We don't "assign" each party a percentage of who has done what. Christianity is about participation in the works of God. God draws us into Himself. Thus, we "work out your salvation in fear and trembling, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13.

And I simply asked how you can work out that which you don't have ? No answer for that ?

Do works save? No, but if you think you are going to heaven WITHOUT doing works of love, then you have totally missed the point of the reason why Christ came in the first place.

Regards

IMO one of the largest misconceptions in Christendom today is that YOU are working with GOD... although the biblical model is CHRIST working in us...

It's not Christ and me... it's Christ in me... because I am positionally dead in the sight of God, crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. in Colossians we're told to set our affections on things above and not on the things of the earth, for YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God.

But there are many who can't stomach the simple truth that there are NONE good but one, and that is God.. nope, for them it's Christ AND me rather than Christ in me.. I think this is especially true in the one true church crowd who need that 'special' attribute with respect to their theology.

 

[Eventide]

More trolling.

ANSWER THE QUESTION - what did Christ do on the cross? What was His blood shed for?

Please don't dance around it, I am sorry you feel trapped by the question, and if you DON'T feel trapped, then answer the question.

Don't hold your breath Pizzaguy... when it's not to the glory of Christ alone you'll get any answer but the biblical one.

Many actually believe that they are good and that is the basis for why they can't come to grips with the simple truth that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...

 

[francisdesales]

More trolling.

ANSWER THE QUESTION - what did Christ do on the cross? What was His blood shed for?

I did answer the question, and then referred back to the post's first sentence. Was that too much to ask, to go back a couple of posts are re-read ONE sentence of a two sentence post???

Geez, and I AM A TROLL???? :bigfrown

This answers your question, again...:

The death of Jesus on the cross proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God loves man. EXTRAVAGANTLY.

No dancing. I am not trapped. The question is answered.

All else derives from that fact. If you have something else in mind, perhaps you should just come out and say it and we can go from there based upon what I have already said.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

More trolling.

ANSWER THE QUESTION - what did Christ do on the cross? What was His blood shed for?

Please don't dance around it, I am sorry you feel trapped by the question, and if you DON'T feel trapped, then answer the question.

EDIT: Forget it, I see your answer above, you are not what I call a Christian. To me, a Christian is a person who calls upon the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins.

Who said I didn't and do not continue to call upon the name of Christ to forgive me of sin? Who the heck are you to put these words in my mouth???

Maybe you should stop trying to read my mind and respond to my post.

A Christian believes in and accepts Christ's redemptive act on the cross as the only path to salvation. It is God Himself who demands this (in answer to your question above).

Did I deny that by saying that Christ's act on the cross was an act of love????

I think you need to slow down for a minute and stop adding such garbage to what I wrote...

His was a great act of love, as was God's act of sending him - but it was way more than that.

You didn't ask for an exhaustive post on what the work of Jesus accomplished. My post, I believe, summarizes the motivation of God. From that, we derive WHO God is. Knowing that God is love, we are certain that we can turn to Him and that He would forgive us. Are you saying I was WRONG, that Jesus' act on the cross was not motivated by Love???

Are you trying to say that God could not forgive sins UNLESS His Son died????

You are no troll, you simply don't believe in or accept Christ as Savior. I retract my "troll" accusation, again, I did not think anyone who called themselves a Christian would deny Christ's redemptive work on the cross.

dude, you need to stop, think, and apologize...

 

[Eventide]

Bottom line in this thread imo... people rejecting the simple truth of scripture and believing that they are not only good, but working with God for their salvation... pretty sad.

How else could they come to that conclusion or belief... they evidently believe that they are good enough for the task at hand..

 

[Pizzaguy]

Who said I didn't and do not continue to call upon the name of Christ to forgive me of sin? Who the heck are you to put these words in my mouth???

Then why do you skate around things? Why this nonsense, vague response about "it was an act of love"?

I did NOT ask about motivation, I asked what Christ did on the cross.

Do you now see why I used the "Troll" label?

You didn't ask for an exhaustive post on what the work of Jesus accomplished.

You just like to argue. I asked what he did on the cross and you responded with your vague "act of love" baloney.

My post, I believe, summarizes the motivation of God.

Agreed - but it was not what I was asking.

Are you saying I was WRONG, that Jesus' act on the cross was not motivated by Love???

Not at all - you stated the obvious and skirted the question at the same time.

Are you trying to say that God could not forgive sins UNLESS His Son died????

No. He forgave sin before Christ thru animal sacrifice. However, once Christ died, the work was DONE. There is no more sacrifice needed. It is done. Over. Finished.

dude, you need to stop, think, and apologize...

Apologize for what? For working like a slave to get you to answer a simple question?

 

[Pizzaguy]

Bottom line in this thread imo... people rejecting the simple truth of scripture and believing that they are not only good, but working with God for their salvation... pretty sad.

How else could they come to that conclusion or belief... they evidently believe that they are good enough for the task at hand..

Agreed. But I'm not sure if Francis is one or not - hard to determine with the his obfuscation.

Oh, but this IS the internet, and this is the way of the internet! :D

 

[Pizzaguy]

I did answer the question, and then referred back to the post's first sentence. Was that too much to ask, to go back a couple of posts are re-read ONE sentence of a two sentence post???

Geez, and I AM A TROLL???? :bigfrown

This answers your question, again...:

The death of Jesus on the cross proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that God loves man. EXTRAVAGANTLY.

No dancing. I am not trapped. The question is answered.

All else derives from that fact. If you have something else in mind, perhaps you should just come out and say it and we can go from there based upon what I have already said.

Regards

It proves that, sure. But that is now why He went to the cross. He went there as payment for our sins. He was the final sacrifice for sin.

It amazes me that, perhaps, you are not trolling, but that you REALLY don't think he paid for your sins.

 

[francisdesales]

And I simply asked how you can work out that which you don't have ? No answer for that ?

God works within us the will to work.

I point out the zero sum game, because you are doing it again. You probably don't even realize it. But your response clearly indicates you see a "what do I have" and "what does God have" and go from there.

God works "within" me. According to the Bible. Not "on" me, as if I was some passive bystander or a puppet. I am being MADE and BEING CONFORMED to Christ. Thus, when I work, it is Christ who works within me. NOT a "is it all me" or "is it all God".

IMO one of the largest misconceptions in Christendom today is that YOU are working with GOD... although the biblical model is CHRIST working in us...

WHEN Christ is working in us, we are indeed working with Christ as participants. Ever since the beginning, when God call Adam to participate in His work by allowing him to name the animals and be a steward for creation, God calls man to participate in His plan of salvation and work in this world. The word "synergy" is clearly in the Bible, describing the relationship between God and man. The term "partner" and "helper" are commonly used. The misconception of yours is at the basic level - that man cannot be made holy and is merely "imputed" holiness.

It's not Christ and me... it's Christ in me... because I am positionally dead in the sight of God, crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. in Colossians we're told to set our affections on things above and not on the things of the earth, for YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God.

"Positionally dead". Where is that concept in Scriptures?

Your reference to Galatians means that it is not I ALONE that lives, but Christ lives within me. Phil 2:12-13 gives a clear indication of that cooperation that occurs as a result of Christ in me. Being "in Christ" is one of the most common themes of the Pauline writings. Not "Christ in me", but "me in Christ". Participating in Christ as part of His Body.

But there are many who can't stomach the simple truth that there are NONE good but one, and that is God.. nope, for them it's Christ AND me rather than Christ in me.. I think this is especially true in the one true church crowd who need that 'special' attribute with respect to their theology.

Another fine example of the "zero-sum" game. It is either God is holy or man is holy. Since the Scriptures say God is holy, you play the zero sum game. Man cannot be holy - you presume wrongly. However, the ENTIRE POINT OF CHRIST'S DEATH as it applies to US is to DRAW US INTO HIM. TO MAKE US HOLY. Christ living in us conforms us to Him. We ARE INDEED an active participant in this work, a work that cannot take place without the Spirit, but an act that cannot take place without our cooperation, either.

It is not God 100%, man 0%. It is God 100%, man 100%. As part of the Body of Christ, as a cell of that Body, I indeed am "working out my salvation in fear and trembling" BECAUSE God is within me moving my will and desire... From this verse, it is obvious that BOTH God and man are at work here. And there is no effort to divide the labor, as you do.

You won't understand that until you understand that the work of Christ on the Cross was an act of LOVE. Not a legal act. And those who know something about love can understand that the lover desires to draw the beloved "into" himself - so when they do something, it is together. The beloved is not a passive bystander. The lover doesn't "measure" how much they bring to the table.

Regards

 

[handy]

TRUTH over TRADITION posted some pertinent questions...

1. From what am a being saved?
2. When is this salvation realized?
3. On this side of life, are ANY saved, or are there instead those of us who are undergoing the process of being saved?

I would add to these questions...

What does it mean to be "in Christ"?

Consider this passage often quoted by the OSAS crowd:
Ephesians 2:8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Too often, in the never-ending debate of OSAS, folks come to a screeching halt right there. But, read on, folks! Read the very next verse:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

This is why I gave the to Joe's quote:

Christianity is not a zero-sum game, where it is God vs me. We don't "assign" each party a percentage of who has done what. Christianity is about participation in the works of God. God draws us into Himself. Thus, we "work out your salvation in fear and trembling, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Phil 2:12-13.


Do works save? No, but if you think you are going to heaven WITHOUT doing works of love, then you have totally missed the point of the reason why Christ came in the first place.

Do works save...no. I defy anyone to provide a quote where someone has said that they do. However, if one is not following up on their "salvation" of Ephesians 2:8-9 with the works God prepared for us and tells us about in Ephesians 2:10 then one must do as Paul told the Corinthians to do:
2 Corinthians 13:5 "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?"

I truly do wish we could discuss this topic without calling into question one's Christianity.

I have walked in my Christian walk from Calvinism, as OSAS as one can get (and yes, I understand the difference between OSAS and Preservation of the Saints) to coming to realize that a careful examination of the Scriptures show that we can indeed fall away and fail to receive eternal life. Yes, we are in Christ, yes, God will not allow Him to lose even one, but nonetheless, the Scriptures contain warning after warning that we can fall away if we do not hold fast and remain in Him.

 

[handy]

You won't understand that until you understand that the work of Christ on the Cross was an act of LOVE. Not a legal act.

You would be surprised how often the work of the cross is presented as a judicial, legal, act. You are correct of course, it was an act of love.

Pizzaguy, you've asked several times what Christ accomplished on the cross, and the answer is, of course, the forgiveness of our sins and the means by which we are saved.

But, this doesn't necessarily mean that once Christ died, all are automatically saved. Nor does it mean that just because one confesses Christ at some point in their live, they will, no matter what the end of their life looks like, automatically go on to eternal life. This is why Paul exhorts us to test our confession.

This is why, in part, I am so against the whole "sinner's prayer" approach to the gospel...it leads too many to believe that "Hey, I prayed that prayer, I'm forgiven and I'm in!" Nowhere is this taught in the Word. Rather, all throughout the New Testament, we are exhorted to hold fast, to continue in what we have begun, to work out our salvation.

 

[Eventide]

God works within us the will to work.

I point out the zero sum game, because you are doing it again. You probably don't even realize it. But your response clearly indicates you see a "what do I have" and "what does God have" and go from there.

God works "within" me. According to the Bible. Not "on" me, as if I was some passive bystander or a puppet. I am being MADE and BEING CONFORMED to Christ. Thus, when I work, it is Christ who works within me. NOT a "is it all me" or "is it all God".



WHEN Christ is working in us, we are indeed working with Christ as participants. Ever since the beginning, when God call Adam to participate in His work by allowing him to name the animals and be a steward for creation, God calls man to participate in His plan of salvation and work in this world. The word "synergy" is clearly in the Bible, describing the relationship between God and man. The term "partner" and "helper" are commonly used. The misconception of yours is at the basic level - that man cannot be made holy and is merely "imputed" holiness.



"Positionally dead". Where is that concept in Scriptures?

Your reference to Galatians means that it is not I ALONE that lives, but Christ lives within me. Phil 2:12-13 gives a clear indication of that cooperation that occurs as a result of Christ in me. Being "in Christ" is one of the most common themes of the Pauline writings. Not "Christ in me", but "me in Christ". Participating in Christ as part of His Body.



Another fine example of the "zero-sum" game. It is either God is holy or man is holy. Since the Scriptures say God is holy, you play the zero sum game. Man cannot be holy - you presume wrongly. However, the ENTIRE POINT OF CHRIST'S DEATH as it applies to US is to DRAW US INTO HIM. TO MAKE US HOLY. Christ living in us conforms us to Him. We ARE INDEED an active participant in this work, a work that cannot take place without the Spirit, but an act that cannot take place without our cooperation, either.

It is not God 100%, man 0%. It is God 100%, man 100%. As part of the Body of Christ, as a cell of that Body, I indeed am "working out my salvation in fear and trembling" BECAUSE God is within me moving my will and desire... From this verse, it is obvious that BOTH God and man are at work here. And there is no effort to divide the labor, as you do.

You won't understand that until you understand that the work of Christ on the Cross was an act of LOVE. Not a legal act. And those who know something about love can understand that the lover desires to draw the beloved "into" himself - so when they do something, it is together. The beloved is not a passive bystander. The lover doesn't "measure" how much they bring to the table.

Regards

A perfect thesis on rejecting the truth of scripture.. that there are NONE good but ONE, and that is God.. perhaps you believe that you're getting better and better... although again, the bible doesn't teach that at all.. it teaches that IF YOU SHALL SEEK to SAVE YOUR LIFE, ye shall lose it... the exact thing which YOU are trying to do.

See folks... people just can't believe the simple biblical fact that there are NONE GOOD but ONE, and that is GOD.

Until that is resolved... you'll continue to think that it's Christ and YOU rather than Christ in you.

 

[Sam21]

The sacrifice of Christ was an act of love but it accomplished a legal victory so that our sins can be forgiven. So the cross was both love and legal. The love of God was the motivation to pay the legal price for the redemption of man.

 

[francisdesales]

He forgave sin before Christ thru animal sacrifice. However, once Christ died, the work was DONE. There is no more sacrifice needed. It is done. Over. Finished.

I am asking "was Christ's sacrifice on the cross demanded before sins were to be forgiven"? Was this the only option available to God BEFORE He forgives sins?

Or does God require a humble and contrite heart? Even the OT prophets realized the truth of this statement. But some Christians don't get it... They still are looking at sacrifices to assuage an angry God.

To help you see my point, ask yourself, "which sacrifice did the father require of the son" in the parable of the prodigal son, clearly, an analogy to what the Father does with us?

According to Scriptures, Christ died as an expiation for sins, but it wasn't demanded by any act of law. It was an act of love, and from THAT ACT, the Father sees Jesus, OUR MEDIATOR (representing mankind) asking for forgiveness. God requires that man ask for forgiveness before He forgives. Man has done that in the person of Jesus Christ, true God AND true man. For all of mankind. By becoming one of us, Christ became our representative - to INTERCEDE for us (as He continues to do).

The entire point is Christ died out of love for our sake, not because a courtroom declared that He must die for the sake of someone else. That is a most UNJUST sentence... Christ died as man for men, to beg God for forgiveness of sins of mankind. His sacrifice on the cross best expresses His love, and the Father, Who loves the Son, "must" say "I forgive men".

Apologize for what? For working like a slave to get you to answer a simple question?

How about telling me that I am not Christian and putting words into my mouth???? Where did I say half of the things you attributed to me? 2 Just because I did not give a half page dissertation doesn't mean you can "fill in the blanks" like that.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

I am asking "was Christ's sacrifice on the cross demanded before sins were to be forgiven"? Was this the only option available to God BEFORE He forgives sins?

Of course... unless the entire OT scriptures were a lie.. and not many Christians believe that. It was all foretold in countless stories before it ever came to pass, and it HAD TO BE FULFILLED precisely as God said that it would be or He would be a liar... and we all know that men are liars, not God.

 

[francisdesales]

A perfect thesis on rejecting the truth of scripture.. that there are NONE good but ONE, and that is God.. perhaps you believe that you're getting better and better... although again, the bible doesn't teach that at all.. it teaches that IF YOU SHALL SEEK to SAVE YOUR LIFE, ye shall lose it... the exact thing which YOU are trying to do.

You are missing the entire point of the role of sanctification in the life of a Christian. I am sorry that you feel that you are as a pile of manure covered with snow, but this is not how God acts with those whom He loves. A lover would know this.

The bible teaches over and over again that we are to grow in Christ. We are exhorted CONSTANTLY in Scriptures to walk in Christ. WE are exhorted. NOT JESUS!!! Read the Bible more carefully. WHO EXACTLY is being COMMANDED to love? JESUS????

Please. This is Christianity 101. The entire point of Christ coming to us is to conform us to Him. Not to toss a throw rug over us and sneak into heaven, as if the Father was some dottering old man who couldn't tell that something unclean had entered heaven.

The command to die to self is a command to love. Clearly, you don't know what love is about. Love means dying to self, giving to the other completely of all that we are. The selfish live for themselves. Those who love die to self desires, giving for the sake of the beloved. Our example of this is Jesus Christ, who humbled Himself to become one of us, to serve, rather than to be served...

See folks... people just can't believe the simple biblical fact that there are NONE GOOD but ONE, and that is GOD.

Until that is resolved... you'll continue to think that it's Christ and YOU rather than Christ in you.

What is the purpose of sanctification, eventide???

Regards

 

[handy]

Here is a very good text to consider:

Phillippians 3:
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.
17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

 

[francisdesales]

Of course... unless the entire OT scriptures were a lie.. and not many Christians believe that. It was all foretold in countless stories before it ever came to pass, and it HAD TO BE FULFILLED precisely as God said that it would be or He would be a liar... and we all know that men are liars, not God.

That something was foretold does not mean that it was required to be done by THE PLANNER, God Himself.

Can you tone down the rhetoric?

 

[Eventide]

BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVED...

Come on, nobody believes that.. nobody believes that there are none good but one, and that is God.. come on..

We're good... we can work with God for our salvation.. He can't do it alone... we need to help Him..

It really does come down to the simple fact that many DO NOT BELIEVE what God says.