Your an MD who examined this patient?
Jesus-“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
ONE EDUCATED PERSPECTIVE ON "WHO IS SATAN?"
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
- Start date
Jesus-“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
I wonder did Mr D ever attend any sunday school classes or read the 4th chapter of Luke ?
Let me see how many times torment is spoke of , 4 times .
jeremiah1five , do you believe what Jesus is telling us in Luke 4 ?
jeremiah1five , do you believe in hell as described by Jesus ?
| 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, |
| 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. |
| 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; |
| 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. |
| 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. |
| 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. |
| 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. |
| 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: |
| 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. |
| 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. |
| 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. |
| 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. |
That's correct. I have examined the Word of Truth and have made my diagnoses.
Great. Now let's define what "demons" are.
They are not in the First Covenant, not in the way the Gentile Church has come to define them. So, if there is no precedent in the First Covenant then there is no reality in the Second Covenant. This thing about "demons" in the Gentile Church has no biblical basis.
| [I deleted your Scripture in Luke because I was to post it in my response to save space] |
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Lk 16:19–31.
So, what is this torment? I believe Paul gives the answer:
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Cor. 15:54–56.
Two perspectives must first be established.
There is the perspective of the eternalness of God. He sees everything in what is described as the eternal "now."
The second perspective is of man. We see all things in time, a procession of moments.
The reason why "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" is because when a believer dies, he goes directly to "Abraham's Bosom," which is another way of saying "God's Presence."
The unbeliever, like the rich man, also enters eternalness but he is separated from God. This is the "great gulf fixed" and the impossibility of travelling between there and the Presence of God. It's a separableness between these two locations or states of being. One is with God, the other is without God. Do we agree so far? Pretty much what I am saying is from God's perspective everything is said and done, and we are as believers with God and IN God, returning to whence we were first contemplated, that is, in the Mind of God which is God. God is Spirit. His Mind is not separate from His essence and Person. He is everything.
Paul says, "the sting of death is sin." Unatoned sin.
When the believer when he/she dies they go immediately into the Presence of God and there is enormous comfort. Bliss. The sting of death which is sin is removed and we experience comfort. But the unatoned experience a sting throughout eternity. In "time" (but there is no "time" in eternity) the sting feels like a "flame," a "burning."
Fire is particular to this universe and existence. There must be combustible material, an accelerant, and oxygen, etc., for a fire to exist. Again, these are particular to our material universe. But there is none of that in eternity.
But the sting of death which is sin and sin is death remains for/to the unatoned.
I don't need to spiritualize Scripture especially when it is literal unless the context calls for such understanding.
Do think that Jesus knew what torment meant ? Yes or No will do .
Yes. He was at one point on the cross separated from His Father:
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mk 15:34.
He experienced the "torments" intensively, not extensively.
Tenchi
Member
As I pointed out, the article carefully avoids any of the serious challenges God's word issues to its contentions.
He makes some obvious points directed at a Strawman version of a biblical conception of the devil.
There are many who hold a cartoonish version of the devil, but the OP article invites people to adopt an equally-mistaken view of the devil that ignores some very important biblical facts about him.
Jesus used the word torment for a reason when He spoke of the afterlife in HELL . Jesus did not say "sting" He said torment . You can not change the the word torment into "sting" .
I will have to conclude there is FIRE IN HELL that torments a person once they are there regardless of what your "science of hell" suggests to you . Here is Jesus again telling us FIRE 6 times in Mark 9 . Jesus want us all to have no doubt about FIRE IN HELL .
Mark 9
| 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: |
| 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. |
| 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: |
| 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. |
| 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: |
| 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. |
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journeyman
Member
The lesson in Psalm 22 is how God never abandons the righteous. Never.
Jesus quoted this Psalm because the so called scholars, the highly esteemed teachers of the people were mocking him. They thought God had abandoned Jesus.
Psalm 22 says God never abandons the righteous.
Gentile Christians don't hold a "cartoonish" version, they actually believe "Satan" is an actual person/creation of God loose on the planet but the Scripture says the angels that sinned were cast down to hell and delivered in "chains" (referencing restriction/apprehension) of darkness awaiting judgment day.
You reject this truth and continue to maintain an erroneous belief on this subject.
I don't agree entirely with the OP but he provides some historical and grammatical facts that need to be considered.
The definition of sin is death. The definition of death without Christ is sin. Unatoned sin. Paul tells us the sting of death is sin. If an eternal sting is not torment, then maybe you've never been stung by a bee. But this sting encapsulates the whole being of a person. Jesus describes the effect of unatoned sin which is torment. Paul describes the actual cause.
Then it appears to me by your position you make no distinction between the material universe and the Divine God. Fire doesn't exist in the eternal. When Jesus described eternal separation from God in Luke and your "fires" it was Paul through revelation from God later that he adds to the understanding of what the torment really is. Sin. Unatoned sin. You're focusing on the symptom; I am looking at the cause.
What is the "worm?"
Tenchi
Member
I already showed you that you have purposefully misread the verses from Peter and Jude on which you base your mistaken view here. There is no "all fallen angels" or "every fallen angel" in what they wrote. And, as I already pointed out, the Gospel accounts of Christ's temptation by the devil and his exorcisms of the demon-possessed, as well as teaching in the various NT letters about spiritual warfare against the devil, completely dissolve your idea that all fallen angels were chained in darkness. There are legions of demons at work in the world, just as there were in Jesus' time, led by the devil, the Father of Lies, who was a "murderer from the beginning."
No, it is YOU who rejects the truth, adding to, and contorting, God's word to fit your peculiar and false ideas about the demonic.
People would be better served, I think, if they just studied their Bibles carefully (and did not add to, or contort, what it says, as you have done).
The angels that sinned are locked up. That's what it says.
I take the Scripture literally as written unless the context describes something else. I don't go into my study spiritualizing everything first. There's a logical and reasonableness of God that He communicates to His people. He says, "let us REASON together" and then goes on to discuss salvation in Isaiah. God is very literal. He says what He means, and He means what He says.
Devine fire .
Fuel for the fire .
Exodus 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
jeremiah1five , what was the fuel for this pillar of fire ?
Jesus didn't say "divine" fire. Now WHO'S adding to the bible?
God's Presence in the material universe was to exist in this world as cloud and fire.
But in eternity which is God Himself He is Light.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
The crowds were all amazed and said, “Can this man be the Son of David?” 24 When the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man can force demons out of people only with the help of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons.”
25 Since Yeshua knew what they were thinking, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is ruined. And every city or household divided against itself will not last. 26 If Satan forces Satan out, he is divided against himself. How, then, can his kingdom last? 27 If I force demons out of people with the help of Beelzebul, who helps your followers force them out? That’s why they will be your judges. 28 But if I force demons out with the help of God’s Spirit, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Yes, you said "Divine fire" implying that the "torments" in Luke is divine fire from God.
But it's not necessary for God to provide a "fire" to torment its victims of judgment.
The judgment of all unatoned sinners is self-contained in their sin nature.
God doesn't do any "tormenting." Luke doesn't even come close to implying it.
The rich man is in "hell" (the grave.) It's just him and his sin nature. And his unatoned, unimputed sin nature is all that he has keeping him company. And it's not fire. It's the sting of unatoned sin.
Fire is particular to the cosmic universe we live in, especially earth where we have oxygen and combustible material, etc.
I don't see the Presence of God as a cloud of smoke or pillar of fire in glory.
Scripture says God is Light. No need for fire in glory.
God chose to communicate His veiled Presence before Israel as smoke and fire for His purpose of guiding Israel through the desert.
The word "devil" is an adjective. It means "traducer" or "false accuser" or "someone who impugns the character of another" depending on the context in which it is being used.
Submit to God and resist being a liar. When you submit to God sincerely the impulse to lie disappears (but it will come back in the future.)
So, the Pharisees were able to cast out "demons"?
And who is "Beelzebub?"
Thanks for this comment ! Yes a divine fire , after all what other kind of fire could torment a spirit .
And yet that is what Jesus said was happening and the rich man said " I am tormented in the flame " .
Do you not believe Jesus ?
The fire is doing the tormenting . Jesus was the one speaking .
The grave is not mentioned . The rich man "was buried and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments" . The rich man was in hell .
Have you jeremiah1five had any fire science training ? I have taken an accredited 160 hour firefighting course that included fire science .
jeremiah1five , you did not tell me what the fuel source was for the pillar of fire , why not ? Have I stumped you ?
You are concerned about the fire in hell needing a source .