One final chance to say yes?

[Blev]

Hebrews 9:27-28

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

I'd be careful of giving anyone a false hope, though I would be glad if I was wrong on this one. Also, there is no ceasing to exist.

John 5:29

New King James Version (NKJV)

29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

John 5:29 states that we all be resurrected from the dead, and don't forget there are many Scriptures that support eternal death which means you can't be non-existent.

Davies,
Good scriptures! I agree with you. We have to make a choice before we die, no matter who we are. We have had all our lives to do so, most of us. God said he would not always strive with man. If they are going the other way opposite of Him and do not want Him, they sure wouldn't want to live with Him forever in Heaven. And there are many verses that indicate we have an eternal soul that will live forever one place or the other. Forever means forever

Romans 1:20For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Davies,

Hebrews 9:27-28

New King James Version (NKJV)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Originally posted by Blev,

Good Scriptures! I agree with you. We have to make a choice before we die, no matter who we are.

My goodness, how cruel and unforgiving the church has become. Praise God the Father and His Christ are nothing like "the IMAGE" man sets up, making Him out to be a tyrannical "BEAST."

1 Corinthians 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."


Where does it say that no one can be saved during judgment? There are many examples in scripture of people, and/or groups of people being saved out from God's judgments.


Zephaniah 3 "Therefore wait upon me, saith the Lord, until the day when I rise up for a witness: because my judgment shall be on the gatherings of the nations, to draw to me kings, to pour out upon them all my fierce anger: for the whole earth shall be consumed with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the peoples a tongue for her generation, that all may call on the name of the Lord, to serve him under one yoke. 10 From the boundaries of the rivers of Ethiopia will I receive my dispersed ones; they shall offer sacrifices to me. 11 In that day thou shalt not be ashamed of all thy practices, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then will I take away from thee thy disdainful pride, and thou shalt no more magnify thyself upon my holy mountain. 12 And I will leave in thee a meek and lowly people; 13 and the remnant of Israel shall fear the name of the Lord, and shall do no iniquity, neither shall they speak vanity; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed, and lie down, and there shall be none to terrify them."




Christ says that judgment consists of many stripes or few stripes.

Luke 12:45 "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


Appoint him his portion with the unbelievers?


Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."



How does God judge His people whom He likens to Sodom and Gomorrah? God judges them, they lose their power and authority, then has compassion on them!

Deuteronomy 32:32 "For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Deuteronomy 32:34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompense; their foot shall slide in due] time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left."



And what about Sodom? These are people whom the majority of Christendom believes our "loving God" is "burning with fire" for eternity:

Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou [Judah] and thy daughters shall return to your former estate."



When God judges the world, the world will learn righteousness:

Isaiah 26:9 "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 26:10 Let favor be shown unto the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD."


These are all examples of judgment, vengeance, wrath, fire, etc. where God is ready to have compassion when the people return to Him with all their heart. This is even what the law of the Old Testament dictates (see Deuteronomy 30).



There is salvation through judgment going on in Revelation 21 & 22. Specifically in Revelation 21:25-26 and 22:2.

Revelation 22:2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."


What "NATIONS" are being healed? Have you considered?

Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

(also see Zephaniah 3 and Ezekiel 16 above)




Here are some more verses to consider:

Psalms 22:27 "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psalms 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Psalms 22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul."


Genesis 28:14 "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."


Luke 13:20 "And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luke 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."



One should understand what "judgment" is, and what it entails, before arriving at hasty, erroneous conclusions!

 

[Blev]

Hebrews 9:27-28[/URL]

New King James Version (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Blev]

Good Scriptures! I agree with you. We have to make a choice before we die, no matter who we are.

My goodness, how cruel and unforgiving the church has become.

I wasn't aware that agreeing with scripture was being cruel and unforgiving. Quite the contrary. In fact it's more loving to show someone the truth so they might be saved, than to not tell them and they might be lost for eternity.

 

[Davies]

Thank you Blev. How about another verse?
John 5:28-29

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.


I'm thinking to myself, maybe a person will be able to repent after he is resurrected? I don't think so; not to the resurrection of repentance.


Luke 16:19-24New King James Version (NKJV)

The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’


What we don't understand is the holiness of God. To many, Hades and the lake of fire seem to be cruel because there is no leaving, there is always existing, and there is always torment. Add to the physical nature of the lake of fire, there the conscience will spurn the sinner because he could have been forgiven and spent eternal bliss with the full weight of Jesus' inheritance! In Hades or the lake of fire, they'll both be one and the same in the future, it will take an eternity to understand what it means to reject the blood of the Lamb. This is the only thing a person has to look forward to who hasn't repented and put their trust in Jesus in this life. This is why we should be able to be more patient with those who laugh Jesus to scorn.

I heard a man on the radio today in a witnessing encounter who was explained the Gospel of Jesus. Do you know what he said? He said, 'I'd rather have a sandwich in my stomach right now rather than hear about salvation.' Kinda reminds you of Esau.

Understanding what we deserve is critical to understanding the grace of God. Just take a look at the cross to see what we deserve. Why do I dwell on such a seemingly depressing point? Because Jesus took my place! God is more than good! I know this is off topic, but it was a good tangent.

- Davies

 

[WIP]

I'm always amazed at the patience of Jesus when He must have been exhausted from an entire day of walking, teaching, and being hungry. The example I'm thinking of is when Jesus had went to the other side of the lake of Galilee, and the crowds followed Him, and He looked on them with compassion. Now that is a strength to be desired. I tried to find the passage, but it escapes me at the moment.

Now, that I've totally ignored the OP, I think it's important to remember that we don't know when our final chance to say yes is. There are many tombstones of people who lived less than 10, 20, or even 30 years old. It could be a heart attack, a stroke, or a car accident when a person arrives on time at his appointment with God. 'I'll turn to Jesus later as my school is my priority right now.' How many times have I heard this? Usually God's grace is displayed by giving us a life time, but don't tell that to people who have lost loved ones in disasters, like hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, or earthquakes.

- Davies

No one knows the year, month, day, hour, minute, or second.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By Davies,

What we don't understand is the holiness of God. To many, Hades and the lake of fire seem to be cruel because there is no leaving, there is always existing, and there is always torment. Add to the physical nature of the lake of fire, there the conscience will spurn the sinner because he could have been forgiven and spent eternal bliss with the full weight of Jesus' inheritance! In Hades or the lake of fire, they'll both be one and the same in the future, it will take an eternity to understand what it means to reject the blood of the Lamb. This is the only thing a person has to look forward to who hasn't repented and put their trust in Jesus in this life. This is why we should be able to be more patient with those who laugh Jesus to scorn.

Absolutely no understanding, or willingness to understand the clear Scripture provided in my previous post. I'm not surprised at all actually.

The position of "eternal torment" is the least defensible of all presented in this forum. Not only do those who subscribe to this abomination profess the existence of a horrendous eternal punishment for what is done in this brief, frail life of less than 100 years..... but they also profess that it is because of an 'ego-problem' that Jesus has for anyone who won't 'believe' in Him while in their 'state of darkness':


Job 37:19 "We cannot arrange our case because of darkness"

Proverbs 20:24 "Man's steps are ordained by the Lord, how then can man understand his way?"

Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord"

Proverbs 16:9 "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps."

Romans 11:32 "God locks up ALL together in unbelief, that He should be merciful to ALL"


The existence of this debate reveals the differences that spiritual maturity produces. One who accepts Eternal Torment as logical, reasonable and just..... and sees it as a legitimate motive for being 'blackmailed' into professing belief and love for God..... reveals a rather low level of spiritual maturity. It is and has been quite a prevalent state of mind..... witness the many individuals who seek to 'force someone' to love them..... or in jealous rage believe that they can violently retain the love of someone against all rivals. For someone at this stage..... the idea of "set them free and if they love you they will return" is impossible. The unwillingness to accept that love is proven NOT by speech but by actions seems also to be associated with this stage of immaturity. A lot of abuse is, and has been perpetrated on those with this mindset (recall the Dark Ages)

Fear and eternal torment have nothing to do with God who is perfect love, period. There are certainly negative consequences for our failures to spiritually mature, but they are neither punishments nor eternal. "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is reflective of remorse and self-loathing for one's stupidity.....NOT torture or torment. For such remorse would not be possible.

The TRUE NATURE of God is revealed to us unambiguously by Jesus. Those who promote "eternal torment" have corrupted His message and have shamelessly petitioned to keep their man-imposed doctrines and beliefs about what God MUST be like from descriptions and interpretations from savage, power hungry men. They have misused the prophesies designed ONLY to tell us about Jesus and validate His coming and actions. They elevate to infallible and literal inerrant status the primitive, savage, pagan interpretations and understandings of God to twist their understanding of Jesus to accommodate those heinous descriptions! They blaspheme God and Jesus and grossly malign His character by their retention of those primitive misunderstandings and outright misinterpretations of God that completely contradict Jesus' clear and unambiguous example of the TRUE NATURE of God and love.

Very sad indeed! 2

 

[ForumAddict]

All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.†The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.†This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God†(Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god†of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?
http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
​

 

[Osgiliath]

:bigfrown :verysad 2

 

[stovebolts]

I'm always amazed at the patience of Jesus when He must have been exhausted from an entire day of walking, teaching, and being hungry. The example I'm thinking of is when Jesus had went to the other side of the lake of Galilee, and the crowds followed Him, and He looked on them with compassion. Now that is a strength to be desired. I tried to find the passage, but it escapes me at the moment.

Now, that I've totally ignored the OP, I think it's important to remember that we don't know when our final chance to say yes is. There are many tombstones of people who lived less than 10, 20, or even 30 years old. It could be a heart attack, a stroke, or a car accident when a person arrives on time at his appointment with God. 'I'll turn to Jesus later as my school is my priority right now.' How many times have I heard this? Usually God's grace is displayed by giving us a life time, but don't tell that to people who have lost loved ones in disasters, like hurricanes, floods, tsunamis, or earthquakes.

- Davies

I understand that completely.

As far as the examples you gave, sometimes it's best just to not say certain things.

You may remember last year when my brother dies from Heroin. His life was a living hell. He told Mom just a few short months before he died that he was either going to die or go to prison. He knew exactly where his lifestyle was leading him, yet he never choose to repent. When we went to get some things from his house that had been ransacked, it was littered with pornography and needles. It was a horrible site.

At the funeral I was asked to say the opening prayer. There were a few hundred people there, many whom were drug addicts as well. When I prayed, I mentioned that we all make mistakes on this earth and we all make bad choices. I then asked God to be merciful on my brother, as he has been merciful to me.

My brother lived a life of hell on earth and he left a lot of pain in his wake both when he was alive and even now that he's dead. No sense telling my Mom the things she already knows. No need taking her hope away that she'll one day be with her son. No use pouring salt into her wounds.

A few years ago when Universalism was allowed on the board I was arguing with one of them and got to know him. He opened up to me and said that his girlfriend died before she knew Christ and he couldn't bear the thought of her burning for eternity in Hell. He was emotionally distraught and it was clear that he loved his deceased girlfriend very much. He was grieving, and I and others were too stupid to recognize it. Instead, we tried to be biblically correct and I'm reminded of something I learned a long time ago. One can be about as right as right can be, yet still be wrong. The man needed sympathy, not cold words.

 

[Spring Waters]

Been thinking about the nature of heaven and hell and who will go where etc and was wondering if there is a point of no return. What I mean is if an atheist comes face to face God after he's died (the atheist, not God) realises he's made horrendous mistakes and asks for forgiveness, will Jesus grant it and accept him into heaven? Will the atheist even get a chance to ask for forgiveness at that point?

Well, talk about one sure way to convert the unbeliever. ;)

God is sovereign. He does as he pleases and our lives are predestined according to his will and plan. Thus, God will have mercy on those he chooses to show mercy, as the scriptures promise.

Romans 9:19-23

You will say to me then, “Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; 23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does what he wills with the host of heaven
and the inhabitants of the earth.
There is no one who can stay his hand
or say to him, “What are you doing?”

 

[Osgiliath]

I understand that completely.

As far as the examples you gave, sometimes it's best just to not say certain things.

You may remember last year when my brother dies from Heroin. His life was a living hell. He told Mom just a few short months before he died that he was either going to die or go to prison. He knew exactly where his lifestyle was leading him, yet he never choose to repent. When we went to get some things from his house that had been ransacked, it was littered with pornography and needles. It was a horrible site.

At the funeral I was asked to say the opening prayer. There were a few hundred people there, many whom were drug addicts as well. When I prayed, I mentioned that we all make mistakes on this earth and we all make bad choices. I then asked God to be merciful on my brother, as he has been merciful to me.

My brother lived a life of hell on earth and he left a lot of pain in his wake both when he was alive and even now that he's dead. No sense telling my Mom the things she already knows. No need taking her hope away that she'll one day be with her son. No use pouring salt into her wounds.

A few years ago when Universalism was allowed on the board I was arguing with one of them and got to know him. He opened up to me and said that his girlfriend died before she knew Christ and he couldn't bear the thought of her burning for eternity in Hell. He was emotionally distraught and it was clear that he loved his deceased girlfriend very much. He was grieving, and I and others were too stupid to recognize it. Instead, we tried to be biblically correct and I'm reminded of something I learned a long time ago. One can be about as right as right can be, yet still be wrong. The man needed sympathy, not cold words.

Touching story. It makes me cry when I hear stories such as yours, and I hear MANY!


You said,

Originally Posted by StoveBolts,

One can be about as right as right can be, yet still be wrong.

This is very true. In addition, one can also be about as wrong as wrong, yet still be wrong!

There is not one passage of Scripture in the whole Bible that indicates that the grace of God is limited to physical life, or that the mercy of God is tied to ones heartbeat. It is the spirit of man that is of the greatest importance to God. Why should there be salvation provided as long as the mortal body remains animate, but no salvation for the much more valuable spirit of the same man or woman as soon as the last mortal breath is drawn?

As some have posted; the writer to the Hebrews states, "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27), but that proves nothing relative to the question under consideration. It merely establishes the fact of judgment - not the process following judgment. The passage is conspicuous for what it does not say. It does not say, "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after this ETERNAL DAMNATION."

The whole theory of eternal torment rests upon a faulty translation of a couple of Greek words, and actual distortions and perversions of what the Scriptures say. The Church system concludes that God has both the will and the power to save a breathing "physical" man, but no will and no power to save a non-breathing "spiritual" man. It teaches that God has both the will and the power to regenerate a spirit which has a body of dust, but no will or power to save the same spirit without a body of dust. God's mercy and power limited to the temporary function of certain animal organs! Ridiculous, and unscriptural. "A heartbeat, mercy! No heartbeat, no mercy!" 2

Re-read post #23 in this thread and you will see what the Scriptures (not unforgiving man) have to say about "judgment."

 

[Blev]

All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.†The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people (Ecclesiastes 3:11). The problem is that the human race is sinful; we all reject this knowledge of God and rebel against Him (Romans 1:21-23). If it were not for God's grace, we would be given over to the sinful desires of our hearts, allowing us to discover how useless and miserable life is apart from Him. He does this for those who continually reject Him (Romans 1:24-32).

In reality, it is not that some people have not heard about God. Rather, the problem is that they have rejected what they have heard and what is readily seen in nature. Deuteronomy 4:29 proclaims, “But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.†This verse teaches an important principle—everyone who truly seeks after God will find Him. If a person truly desires to know God, God will make Himself known.

The problem is “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God†(Romans 3:11). People reject the knowledge of God that is present in nature and in their own hearts, and instead decide to worship a “god†of their own creation. It is foolish to debate the fairness of God sending someone to hell who never had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. The Bible says that people reject this knowledge, and therefore God is just in condemning them to hell.

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear. We are called to spread the gospel throughout the nations (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 1:8). We know people reject the knowledge of God revealed in nature, and that must motivate us to proclaim the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. Only by accepting God’s grace through the Lord Jesus Christ can people be saved from their sins and rescued from an eternity apart from God.

If we assume that those who never hear the gospel are granted mercy from God, we will run into a terrible problem. If people who never hear the gospel are saved, it is logical that we should make sure no one ever hears the gospel. The worst thing we could do would be to share the gospel with a person and have him or her reject it. If that were to happen, he or she would be condemned. People who do not hear the gospel must be condemned, or else there is no motivation for evangelism. Why run the risk of people possibly rejecting the gospel and condemning themselves when they were previously saved because they had never heard the gospel?
http://www.gotquestions.org/never-heard.html
​

 

[Blev]

I heard a man on the radio today in a witnessing encounter who was explained the Gospel of Jesus. Do you know what he said? He said, 'I'd rather have a sandwich in my stomach right now rather than hear about salvation.' Kinda reminds you of Esau.

Philippians 3:19
Their end is destruction, their bellies are their God, their glory is in their shame, and their minds are devoted to earthly things.

 

[Spring Waters]

All people are accountable to God whether or not they have “heard about Him.†The Bible tells us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature (Romans 1:20) and in the hearts of people Ecclesiastes 3:11...
​

The thing is Nature does not reveal Jesus. Unless one believes Jesus was God incarnate. While scripture says Jesus said: John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

 

[WIP]

Instead of debating the fate of those who have never heard, we, as Christians, should be doing our best to make sure they do hear.

:amen Very sobering.

 

[ForumAddict]

The thing is Nature does not reveal Jesus. Unless one believes Jesus was God incarnate.

How so?

 

[Spring Waters]

According to the scripture. As exampled by the one verse I shared in my reply.

 

[ForumAddict]

So, it is not thought that we can see Jesus in nature? Is not Jesus,God?

 

[Spring Waters]

So, it is not thought that we can see Jesus in nature? Is not Jesus,God?

I think you'll be helped if you go back and read my initial reply(#35). And per your question, it would depend on which scripture you read as that can be answered as yes and no.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
Annie Dillard

 

[ForumAddict]

I have read and re-read your response and I'm sorry but your answer is not clear to me, that is why I am seeking further input. And sorry but the Eskimo joke doesn't click either.