One of the saddest things I've ever heard

[NinaMMitchell]

A 14 year old gay highschool boy killed himself because of how alienated he was by his peers. I know that homosexuality is unbiblical, but so are all the other sins that people do. Christians sin too, and I'm willing to bet that some of the students that treated this boy badly called themselves Christians. I don't condone gay lifestyl, but I don't condem these people either. When will people start treating eachother decently? Don't these "Christians" realize that if you treat a gay person like an outcast to the point that they kill themselves, well now they definitely will never find Jesus. Everyone needs love and everyone needs friends, even gay people. They're human too. Treat them the way Jesus would treat them. I was so devastated when I heard about this. And please, don't anyone tell me that I'm too accepting of homosexuality or that I'm condoning it, because I'm not. I just don't think they should be alienated.

 

[handy]

I agree with you, Nina. Gays seem to be at a much higher risk for suicide than any other group. If anything, we Christians should be reaching out even more in love for them. We turn a blind eye to all kinds of sins...love the sinner, hate the sin...but for some reason, it's still sort of OK for Christians to shun gays.

Very sad.

 

[NinaMMitchell]

I had a friend that went to a church. And in the youth group, there was a lesbian couple, and the church asked them not to come back. Now this lesbian couple was not there to cause trouble, they weren't making out in church or anything, they were there because they wanted to learn. But this church told them that they weren't welcome there. As a result, the couple left, and so did my my friend. I think that sucks.

 

[Mike]

Nine, I fully agree with your first post. I think it's an easy target for many Christians because the act of homosexuality is foreign and (I'll say it) disgusting to us. But more importantly, we aren't tempted by it, so it's easy to condemn what we aren't personally tempted by. That's very sad. Would we be so quick to cast out the gossip monger? We know the answer to that, yet we know what the Word says about the tongue.

Kids are still developing social maturity, and I think they feed off the wrath that the Christian body as a whole has towards homosexuals.

I will say to your second post that I see church as a place where Christians gather. I've never been a part of the seeker church effort, because even the early Church gathered as a body of believers. I think our churches today should offer ministries outside of worship to meet the needs of people seeking. They should be ministered to in order to grow into faith and join the community that assembles. To that end, I'm not thinking two lesbians should necessarily be encouraged to be a part of our Sunday worship, as an open sinner of any kind shouldn't. The early Church would not allow them, because they could be harmful to the body of believers. Should we? That's a tough question to answer honestly.

 

[jasoncran]

A 14 year old gay highschool boy killed himself because of how alienated he was by his peers. I know that homosexuality is unbiblical, but so are all the other sins that people do. Christians sin too, and I'm willing to bet that some of the students that treated this boy badly called themselves Christians. I don't condone gay lifestyl, but I don't condem these people either. When will people start treating eachother decently? Don't these "Christians" realize that if you treat a gay person like an outcast to the point that they kill themselves, well now they definitely will never find Jesus. Everyone needs love and everyone needs friends, even gay people. They're human too. Treat them the way Jesus would treat them. I was so devastated when I heard about this. And please, don't anyone tell me that I'm too accepting of homosexuality or that I'm condoning it, because I'm not. I just don't think they should be alienated.

lovely. i was wondering when this would come back up.

first off having been well ostracised in louisana for dating a gay man i can relate. sadly some christians were doing that.so i do know what its like. that said one christian woman. rebuked me and i repented. she didnt say i was damned just that i was in sin and needed to repent.

so i am one of the few christians here that fully understand what its like to want a member of the same sex.

 

[NinaMMitchell]

From what my friend told me, it was the youth group that the lesbian couple was going to, not the Sunday church services. But still, I don't know if I agree with you. Jesus preached to sinners, and I don't think he would have turned them away. It seems to me that if someone genuinely wants to learn about God, they should be able to, even if it's on a Sunday with everyone else. I know if I was a lesbian, I would be put off by a church that told me I couldn't be a part of their worship service and it would make me not want to be a part of that church. But then, in a way, I see your point. If a gay person doesn't know Jesus, then they wouldn't really be worshipping Him at a worship service, but neither are a lot of other people that are allowed to be there. I just don't think that a church should turn away someone that truely wants to know God. Isn't that what church is for? I know you said that you think churches should offter outside ministried to people that are seeking God until they are ready to be a part of the worship service, but I don't know any churches that do that. So if they aren't allowed in the church service, what's left?

 

[westtexas]

To that end, I'm not thinking two lesbians should necessarily be encouraged to be a part of our Sunday worship, as an open sinner of any kind shouldn't.

I'm not sure I agree with you here Mike. Back in my days of alcohol and drugs I'm sure that the effects of my Saturday night were still evident on Sunday morning. Had the church shunned me there's no telling where I'd be today. What of the un-married heterosexual couples? Do you feel they should not be in Sunday service as well? Any non-Christian, in my opinion, is basically an open sinner. Should they not be in Sunday service as well? Only the Christians? I don't believe the pastor should stand in the pulpit and teach that what they do is right or biblical, but I do believe that EVERYONE belongs in Sunday service. Preach to them brother!!:yes
Just my 2 cents, Ray

 

[NinaMMitchell]

lovely. i was wondering when this would come back up.

first off having been well ostracised in louisana for dating a gay man i can relate. sadly some christians were doing that.so i do know what its like. that said one christian woman. rebuked me and i repented. she didnt say i was damned just that i was in sin and needed to repent.

so i am one of the few christians here that fully understand what its like to want a member of the same sex.

Yeah. As Christians, we're supposed to try to help people turn from their sin. And I am glad that someone was able to do that for you without judging you or pointing fingers. Now a days it seems like any time a Christian tries to point out that a person needs to repent of a particular lifestyle (homosexuality, drugs, alcohol), we're "judging" them, or forcing our religion on them. Of course, a lot of Christians are judgmental, and they do force their beliefs on other people, and those are the Christians that make it hard for everyone else.

 

[jasoncran]

lovely.

that rebuke was over the phone as she called me and told me to read romans one and then call her back. i did and yelled out the very sin but tried to fight that and then told her when i called and she then told me what the lord said. and i then repented. her son told her what i was doing and she prayed and sought the lord what to do and she then called me .

i remeber the day exactly and what i did next. and also what she said to me on the phone.

 

[jasoncran]

mike if that the case then we no need to have mods here as none are perfect. the sinners need to be allowed to hear. leading worship. NO but there in the service yes.

 

[NinaMMitchell]

mike if that the case then we no need to have mods here as none are perfect. the sinners need to be allowed to hear. leading worship. NO but there in the service yes.

I agree.

 

[handy]

I think it would come down to the couple themselves. If they were in agreement that their union could not be sexual at all, and conducted themselves properly, and were repentant...then yes, by all means they should be welcomed.

But, if they were there "as a couple" and were determined that folks knew that their relationship was a lesbian one...then no, they shouldn't be allowed.

I'm with Mike...I don't believe in "seeker" churches. The church is for believers and it's for believers to be taught properly and equipped. I would look at a lesbian or gay couple the same way I would look at a hetero couple who are engaging in extra marital sex. It shouldn't be tolerated amongst Christians.

If they were just visiting...that's a somewhat different story, but for visitors who are coming on a fairly regular basis, the standards should be taught. As Jason testifies, God works through us when we stand upon His principles.

 

[jasoncran]

lets clarify this.

ok so if the local drunk who doesnt repent and is sober on sunday and you know it and isnt saved gets kicked out?

what about all those sins we do daily that we dont repent of to include
cursing
lying
gluttony
smoking
and what not?

only christians are called to be judged not the sinners. i mean this site lets athiests on it and yet one here allows that has no problem but we shalnt have them in our churches2

if they are abiding there peacfully and listen and dont disrupts thats fine but if they reall that hard they will disrupt and be told to leave but that is really rare as most gays and hardend sinners wont step foot.

when i was bi i did this while attending a church and told no one.

 

[jasoncran]

ok let back track to how that women knew i was in that sin. her son a sunni muslim that i taught martial arts with knew that i was in male relationship and told her and then she called me.

i wasnt attending chruch with her. she attended the chapel on the base and i didnt.trust me the word being taught in my church had me on edge . a call for communion. God would say dont go your in sin and i wont allow it.

 

[westtexas]

but for visitors who are coming on a fairly regular basis, the standards should be taught.

I agree Handy- the standards should be taught. But at what point, in your opinion, either the un-married heterosexual couple or the lesbian couple, do you decide that there is no more teaching and ask them to leave to your church? I'm of the opinion that if they are still listening, keep on teaching.
Westtexas

 

[Mike]

Our pastor was counseling a new couple at our church for 6 months before they had a choice to get married or live in separate houses. They weren't in worship, but he spent untold hours over many nights ministering to them. I tried to say sinners of every kind who are open with there sin are a big question mark here. Now some people are comparing other types of open sin and asking if we shouldn't allow them.

I'm not being hard-hearted. I have compassion for them, but there is a time and place. It's biblical, folks. And if being biblical isn't right in today's church, who should be doing the changing?

1 Corinthians 5

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28440">1</sup> It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28441">2</sup> And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28442">3</sup> Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28443">4</sup> When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28444">5</sup> hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28445">6</sup> Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28446">7</sup> Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28447">8</sup> Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28448">9</sup> I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28449">10</sup> not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28450">11</sup> But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28451">12</sup> What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-28452">13</sup> God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.â€

There's another verse I'm looking for, but I can't find it. I believe my body of work demonstrates that I'm not mean-spirited toward people. I would never want them to feel rejected, so I would find alternatives for them. In turn, they would need to consider what them being together in our congregation would do for the focus of the members. I'm not sure how someone can agree that the early church would not welcome open sinners in but think that we should because they need Christ.
Nina, Jesus did spend a lot of time with sinners. But he didn't take them to an assembly at a synagog. As the early Church was developing, their groups they worshiped with were fellow Christians. We have to have our place where we can be empowered to go INTO the world and minister to these people.

 

[handy]

Wow, busy thread...

I think we are seeing the conflict that the "seeker friendly" philosophy has garnered. I do agree that all should be welcome to come, but we also need to remember what "church" is and what our purpose is.

Naturally, the "church" is the Body of Christ...in other words, believers. According to the Scriptures our purpose for gathering together is to worship God and commune with God, fellowship with one another, be taught and be equipped.

For me, it's a huge problem when we forget this and turn what should be "family" time into "outreach" and make sure we are always so "welcoming" that we don't hold everyone to godly standards.

These issues aren't new by any means. The early church had to grapple with sin just as much as we do. But, we also see both the directions given and the examples provided as to what to do...and that is, if anyone was to be part of the congregation, they needed to be repentant of their sin. If they were not, they were "turned over to Satan" and not allowed in the fellowship.

Not to derail the thread...please don't think I'm going off on a tangent here, it's just that I find this to be a timely illustration: This is where I find having closed communion is helpful and effective in the church. Frankly, if a gay or lesbian, or even a hetero but unmarried couple were to come to our church, they would be welcomed. But, they wouldn't be allowed to have communion. Not until they worked with the pastor, came to agreement as to the nature of their sin and repented of it and came into full fellowship with the body.

But, when one is a "seeker friendly" church with open communion, everybody welcome, everyone come on up and be served...then the church, I believe will be held accountable for serving communion to those in unrepentant and fully active sin.

So, the dilemma is this...how do we welcome and communicate God's love to all, while at the same time hold our worship of God sacred and not allow sin to enter in our fellowships.

Because...it has. Leaven has indeed entered into fellowships. Congregations are being led astray...the last church I was member of now openly embraces gay and lesbians as ministers...not just congregants and communicants, but ministers and lay leaders.

 

[handy]

I agree Handy- the standards should be taught. But at what point, in your opinion, either the un-married heterosexual couple or the lesbian couple, do you decide that there is no more teaching and ask them to leave to your church? I'm of the opinion that if they are still listening, keep on teaching.
Westtexas

How about this example, Tex...this occurred in a Nazarene church I was member in in California. A man was running around on his wife. She finally decided that he was never going to stop sleeping around and decided to divorce him. He comes unglued and abuses her. These are both members of the church. She does divorce him and he continues to threaten her as well as to sleep around. So, the church leadership went to him and told him he was no longer welcome at the church.

I'm so glad that they did. His ex-wife was so wounded by all of it, how could she have been ministered to within worship and within church and him still be there. And, he was clearly in sin, and unrepentant.

So, yes, he was kicked out. As a matter of fact, he sought to come on one day and the usher wouldn't allow him in.

Church discipline in action.

As far as those who are not members, but rather perpetual visitors...frankly, I don't think church should be such a comfortable place that one can come, Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, steeped in unrepentant sin and feel right at home. Either one moves towards membership and full fellowship, which includes repenting...or one moves on. If the Sunday Services are so easy going and comfortable that people who are steeped in an unrepentant life can go and go and go and never feel their conscience pricked to do either one or the other...then there is a problem with the church's teaching.

At the most basic level, Sunday worship is where we should, as a congregation, meet with the Divine. I know of no example in Scriptures, where the unrepentant could be exposed to God's Holy Presence and feel cozy about it, so much so that they keep coming back, unchanged.

 

[westtexas]

As far as those who are not members, but rather perpetual visitors...frankly, I don't think church should be such a comfortable place that one can come, Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, steeped in unrepentant sin and feel right at home. Either one moves towards membership and full fellowship, which includes repenting...or one moves on. If the Sunday Services are so easy going and comfortable that people who are steeped in an unrepentant life can go and go and go and never feel their conscience pricked to do either one or the other...then there is a problem with the church's teaching.


I know of no example in Scriptures, where the unrepentant could be exposed to God's Holy Presence and feel cozy about it, so much so that they keep coming back, unchanged.

Again I agree with you Handy. And maybe I agree with you more than my limited writing skills allow you to see. I attend a Fundamental Baptist church where the preaching is old-style "fire and brimstone". I don't believe that it is possible to sit through "Sunday after Sunday after Sunday" and leave un-changed. I believe that one of 2 things will happen. The visitor will be changed or will not return. There is no "cozy" feelings about your (or mine) sins. I don't believe that a sinner in open sin should be allowed church membership but I do believe that they belong in Sunday service. Obviously there are situations, such as you have stated, where an individual should not be allowed in the church but it was my understanding in the OP that the individuals were simply visiting sinners. And you were not off on a tangent, we also observe a closed communion.
Westtexas

 

[Danus]

A 14 year old gay highschool boy killed himself because of how alienated he was by his peers. I know that homosexuality is unbiblical, but so are all the other sins that people do. Christians sin too, and I'm willing to bet that some of the students that treated this boy badly called themselves Christians. I don't condone gay lifestyl, but I don't condem these people either. When will people start treating eachother decently? Don't these "Christians" realize that if you treat a gay person like an outcast to the point that they kill themselves, well now they definitely will never find Jesus. Everyone needs love and everyone needs friends, even gay people. They're human too. Treat them the way Jesus would treat them. I was so devastated when I heard about this. And please, don't anyone tell me that I'm too accepting of homosexuality or that I'm condoning it, because I'm not. I just don't think they should be alienated.

Yep. This recently came full circle for me.

I grew up in a neighborhood with a ton of kids and one who lived at the end of my street growing up was gay. Of cores we did not know of this back in the day, and he did not understand himself in this way until about high school.

It was clear then that Bill was not quite like the rest of us and we distanced ourselves from him and he to us.

years past and now we are all in our forties living all over the map, and who should friend me on face book a few months ago? Bill. Ol' Bill. Gay as gay can be. I accepted his request and in so doing he asked is he could call me and talk.

We must have talked for 3 hours. he came out with it and I just said; "We all knew you where gay Billy, we just did not know how to tell you, but it's OK. I don't condone it, but then again I'm not gay, and if you feel for a man the way I feel for a woman, then God bless you. "

He needed to know that we did not hate him, or that we did not reject him. Now that I think we can all understand that.

I don't know why some people are afflicted in this way, but then again why are people afflicted in any way? This is a fallen world, and that's all I can say to explain the abnormalities we all face and all have to the standard of perfection we can all only one day know when we are with our lord and savior.

If Jesus can accept us where we stand, then we need to be able to do the same for others, because if you think about it, none of us are any better than the worst of us.