One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The only question is this: regardless of how he lived in his younger years, did he EVER put is trust in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, for his salvation? If he did, he WAS saved and IS in eternity now. Because of God's grace. Simple as that.

Second question: for how many sins did Christ die for?

If He died for ALL sins, then the lifestyle has NO BEARING on getting into heaven.

The Bible says He died for all sins. So lifestyle CANNOT be an issue for getting into heaven.

Lifestyle ABSOLUTELY is an issue in whether God will spank His children during this life, and whether they will be rewarded in the next life.

I continue to wonder WHY the conditional security crowd never addresses these points."

The way this reads to me you have made my point, and that of others .

This post, which is #177, doesn't show any response from you, but when I click the "reply" button, there is a response.

However, I'm not sure how to take your response. How, exactly, does this "read" to you? How did I make your point?

 

[Jim Parker]

It's funny that I was thinking this exact thing just before I read this.

I'm convinced that thinking grace makes it so one can languish in unbelief and unrepentant sin and you are still saved, and then doing that, and/or teaching others they can do that, is damnable (Hebrews 10:26 NASB, Matthew 18:6 NASB, 1 Corinthians 3:17 NASB).

I also think the most probable reason for someone adopting such a doctrine is the unrepentant sin that person is living in (John 3:20 NASB). But also, they may adopt it because that message sells. Hyper-grace/ free grace doctrine is the 'have your cake and eat it too' ear tickling doctrine of these end times.

I believe the OSAS or "Preservation of the Saints" is demonic in origin. It encourages believers to neglect the good works for which we have been created "to walk in them." (Eph 2:10) It discourages preaching about holiness and submission to God's will provides room for preaching of self-centered prosperity gospels.

The result can be readily seen in the USA. In spite of the millions of Bibles sold every year and the 24/7 (allegedly) Christian TV broadcasts on several stations and the millions of believers in the USA, the country is spiraling into a chaos of neo-paganism.

But don't worry! Just say a sinner's prayer and be eternally saved while the Christian's neighbors go to hell because they were so seriously underwhelmed by the lack of light shining from their Once Saved Always Saved neighbors.

By their fruits you shall know them.

 

[reba]

I said this:
"The only question is this: regardless of how he lived in his younger years, did he EVER put is trust in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, for his salvation? If he did, he WAS saved and IS in eternity now. Because of God's grace. Simple as that.

the wages of sin are not death?

Second question: for how many sins did Christ die for?

If He died for ALL sins, then the lifestyle has NO BEARING on getting into heaven.

The Bible says He died for all sins. So lifestyle CANNOT be an issue for getting into heaven.

universalism?

Lifestyle ABSOLUTELY is an issue in whether God will spank His children during this life, and whether they will be rewarded in the next life.

I continue to wonder WHY the conditional security crowd never addresses these points."

They are addressed you simply refuse to listen or attempt to understand..

 

[reba]

This post, which is #177, doesn't show any response from you, but when I click the "reply" button, there is a response.

on this i do not a clue

 

[Jethro Bodine]

who think that eternal security abuses God's grace. Which is doesn't.

Biblical eternal security does not abuse God's grace. Everyone who continues to believes is secure in Christ. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

It is HYPER grace that abuses God's grace.
The person who abuses God's grace given us in the blood of Christ has nothing left to look forward to but to be destroyed as one of God's enemies:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB capitals in original, bold mine)

Willfully sinning in a stinging rejection of Christ's sacrifice is the equivalent of insulting the Spirit of grace. But you say hyper-grace (which says you CAN willfully sin in unbelief after you are saved) does not abuse the grace of God. We have the plain words of scripture above to show us that hyper-grace does in fact abuse God's grace. Even if you twist the passage to mean he's talking about rewards (which is incredibly easy to refute) IT'S STILL AN ABUSE OF GOD'S GRACE. But you claim there is nothing that can abuse God's grace after you get saved. Wrong again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They are addressed you simply refuse to listen or attempt to understand..

And it's interesting that he is the only one who can't see that's true.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This site has taken a doctrinal stand on the OSAS debate. See the Statement of Faith:

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.

So what?
There's something else about this site in regard to hyper-grace, which I'm not going to talk about.
The big question is, how does this make your doctrine correct???????
It's been interesting to see you grasping at straws over the months concerning hyper-grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Lifestyle ABSOLUTELY is an issue in whether God will spank His children during this life, and whether they will be rewarded in the next life.

I continue to wonder WHY the conditional security crowd never addresses these points.

Rewards are not in contention here.
Never have been.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:
"The only question is this: regardless of how he lived in his younger years, did he EVER put is trust in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, for his salvation? If he did, he WAS saved and IS in eternity now. Because of God's grace. Simple as that.

Ah!
So based on that, Adolf Hitler is in heaven right now with all the saints who have passed from this vale of tears including all those he murdered.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, if someone here holds to the doctrine that states genuine believers are "sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ", that's a "damnable doctrine" on your view.

It is damable to lead believers in Christ into thinking that their subsequent unbelief, and it's resultant willful sin, will not separate them from Christ. That is my view. Get it right.

People who cause believers to stumble that way will themselves be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17, Matthew 18:6 NASB, 2 Peter 2:2 NASB).

If telling people they can walk away from God in unbelief and go back to their old lives, and they do that, is not destroying them, what is, chessman, what is????

Hyper-grace reminds me of the false prophets that assured the people of Judah over and over that God would not destroy them even though Judah was backslidden and God had made it clear through his real prophets that He would indeed destroy them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ah!
So based on that, Adolf Hitler is in heaven right now with all the saints who have passed from this vale of tears including all those he murdered.

Gee, can't wait to get to heaven to be with that unbelieving mass murderer.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The conditional security view is that God's grace is LIMITED and exhaustible. The Bible teaches that God's grace is greater than all our sins and is limitless.

Then, please, explain the damnation of those who say God's grace is a license to sin:

"4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4 NASB)

Read the passage very carefully and deliberately. Grace is NOT a license to sin, but you are insisting it is.
That makes YOU one of those being spoken about above. You turn the grace of our God into licentiousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Gee, can't wait to get to heaven to be with that unbelieving mass murderer.

Wait.....didn't John say murderers don't have eternal life in them (1 John 3:15 NASB)? I guess John was wrong again.

 

[Papa Zoom]

But there is no such thing as "hypergrace". Only in the minds of those who think that eternal security abuses God's grace. Which is doesn't.

It's a term given to describe a particular thing. I'll look it up and see how it's described.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's a term given to describe a particular thing. I'll look it up and see how it's described.

'Free grace' is another term for the doctrine.
Be careful. They talk out both sides of their mouth.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Exactly! But we don't stop sinning to be saved, or to stay saved.

I agree. To say otherwise is to misrepresent what is salvation. IMHO

 

[Papa Zoom]

'Free grace' is another term for the doctrine.
Be careful. They talk out both sides of their mouth.

Grace is free. It comes with no strings attached. It's not earned in any way. Otherwise it's not grace. But when one considers the whole council of God, it's clear that one cannot simply claim salvation and that's that.

 

[chessman]

It's been interesting to see you grasping at straws over the months concerning hyper-grace.

Care to point out an example or should we file this as one of those opposing replies without any Scriptural evidence????

So what?

You said "Sooner or later, the real church is going to have to take an official stand against this damnable doctrine."

I pointed out that this Christian website has taken a stand on the doctrine.

There's something else about this site in regard to hyper-grace, which I'm not going to talk about.

So calling the doctrine that states genuine believers are unable to be separated from the love of Christ is not talking about it on your view. Got it!

The big question is, how does this make your doctrine correct???????

It's correct because it's Biblical.

The SoF belief that states genuine believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit and thus unable to be separated from the love of Christ is Biblically supported by Paul's doctrine:

Romans 8:35 (NASB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. ​

Your calling it a "damnable doctrine" was 'supported' merely by your misrepresentation of what Matt 18:8 says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace is free. It comes with no strings attached. It's not earned in any way. Otherwise it's not grace. But when one considers the whole council of God, it's clear that one cannot simply claim salvation and that's that.

Okay, good. Glad you said this (I was going to post something about this before but headed out the door instead).

See, the foundational error of 'free grace' doctrine is the thinking that, well, since salvation is secured by nothing at all, then there's nothing that can take it away from you. Problem being, salvation is not secured by nothing. It is secured by faith. Salvation most certainly does have a condition attached to it....faith. Faith that Paul directly contrasts with works as to what justifies and what does not justify (Romans 4:5-6 NASB). But for some reason the church has decided that if you say you must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved you are advocating a works gospel.

So, when you see that justification/salvation/eternal life is most certainly conditional on faith, as opposed to works, then you can see how continued faith can not possibly be the damnable works gospel that Paul talked about. When I'm back at the computer I'll dig up freegrace's recent post that shows that he is indeed basing his beliefs about 'hyper/free grace' on the thinking that 'since salvation is for nothin' then you can't lose it by som'in'. His gross error being that justification most certainly IS conditioned on something......just not works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So calling the doctrine that states genuine believers are unable to be separated from the love of Christ is not talking about it on your view. Got it!

Mmmm...I bet you don't 'got it', even though it has been explained to you many times.

Again, I have to laugh. Once again a OSASer's argument has non-OSAS in it.
But I'm sure you won't see it in your quote above. But it's there. It's quite amusing. I see this over and over in the OSAS arguments. You people keep saying BELIEVERS have the promises of God, the very non-OSAS I'm advocating, lol!--but then turn right around and say ex-believers have the promises of God (an example of that 'talking out of both sides of your mouth' thing, Papa Zoom).

If you 'got' the argument you'd know that non-OSAS says it is those who DON'T believe that are separated from the love of God--the unbelief that Paul no where in scripture says is one of the things that can not separate you from the love of God in Christ and salvation. In fact, he said THE EXACT OPPOSITE:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

You are saved if you are holding fast the gospel word by which you were first saved. That completely and utterly nullifies the hyper/free grace argument that you do NOT have to hold fast what you first heard in order to be saved.