One result of being in union with Christ

[Jethro Bodine]

Your view is that genuine believers are able to be separated from the love of Christ.

Lol, you're still not listening.
Of course GENUINE BELIEVERS can NOT be separated from the love of God in Christ. Present believing is indeed the condition for being presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

It is ex-believers that can be separated from the love of God in Christ. Those who do not hold fast to what they first heard and were saved by are no longer saved.
Why have you not been paying attention to the argument?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And...missing the point again. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, according to Jesus in John 5:24. It is to those who have been given eternal life that they will never perish, unlike your claims to the contrary.

Why haven't you been listening to what I've been saying all these months?
The correct non-OSAS argument regarding when you receive salvation, that you seem to not be able to hear, is that you receive justification/ salvation the moment you believe in God's forgiveness for sin. This point is not in contention.
The argument is you have to continue to believe in order to keep it (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

When the Bible speaks of being saved, past tense, that in no way shape or form nullifies the fact that you have to keep believing in order to keep being saved. But, on the other hand, where the Bible speaks of the necessity for present tense believing to be saved, that completely and utterly destroys and annihilates the hyper-grace argument that salvation is a completely past tense event.

IOW, your OSAS aorist argument does not nullify my non-OSAS present tense argument. But my non-OSAS present tense argument completely nullifies your OSAS aorist tense argument. Completely and utterly.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you got Paul's logic you'd get the fact that those that are saved are those that did not believe (past tense) in vain.

Assuming that's what 'unless you believed in vain' means, explain how that changes the condition for being presently saved for those who did not believe in vain.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

You seem to not be able to see that if a person didn't really believe in the first place, all that does is make the condition for staying saved a moot point for them. It doesn't change the fact that Paul plainly says that the condition for being presently saved for saved people is that you are presently believing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace means that our salvation has nothing to do with us

What do you mean it had nothing to do with us? We had to BELIEVE to get it.

This is the very point upon which hyper-grace hinges. It erroneously thinks that salvation had nothing to do with us whatsoever, and so by extension, the necessity for us continuing to believe can not have anything to do with our salvation.

Papa Zoom, can you see how horribly wrong this thinking is? Obviously, salvation is not completely and utterly without condition. It is conditioned on faith, not nothing at all. So it's impossible to argue that 'since we got saved with no conditions attached whatsoever then there are no conditions whatsoever to stay saved'. This is the very erroneous belief upon which hyper-grace doctrine is based. At least traditional OSAS stresses the necessity to continue to believe to be saved. Traditional OSAS says the believer will always believe, showing themselves to be genuinely saved. I can respect that argument. I have zero respect for hyper-grace doctrine that says unbelievers have eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no such thing. God's greater is simply GREATER than all our sin. It's worse than a shame that there are believers who don't believe that.

You did not bother to explain why "God's greater is simply Greater" than the sin of treating the blood that sanctified you as an unclean thing.

Hebrews 10:26-31 shows us that God's grace does not cover the sin of unbelief in a casting down and trampling of the blood of Christ that sanctified them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet, your view is that for certain reasons, some who have been given eternal life may lose it. Which goes directly against what Jesus promised.

No it doesn't, because Jesus made it clear that he was talking about BELIEVERS, not people who stopped believing.
The promises are secured and kept by faith. People who depart the faith no longer have the faith upon which the sure promises are conditioned.

 

[chessman]

Out of one side of your mouth you say:

Of course GENUINE BELIEVERS can NOT be separated from the love of God in Christ. Present believing is indeed the condition for being presently saved

Out of the other side:

It is ex-believers that can be separated from the love of God in Christ.

The SoF and Paul's doctrine is making a claim about the future of all genuine believers that contradicts your argument.

And notice how the Christian SoF says that it is because of the sealing of the Holy Spirit we are thusly unable to be (future tense) separated from the love of Christ. Praise His glory!

Yet your claim is that we maintain our own condition (conditional security). Praise ourselves!

Romans 8:35 (NASB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ?

Paul is asking/answering a rhetorical question (the OSAS question) about the future and in doing so making a bold claim about our future salvation (not simply present). The same one OSAS v ANTI-OSAS debates. And he excludes your idea as an option. No created thing will (in the future) separate us. Period. Plain and simple. Astonishing??? Yes. But plainly Biblical.

[If you actually think about it and don't chop off Paul mid-sentence, so does the 1 Cor 15:1-2 IF THEN ELSE statement. You are saved unless you believed in vain.]

His answer: No created thing present OR future will separate us.

Your answer: A created thing (ourself) in the future ("subsequent unbelief") CAN separate us.

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It could not be more clearly stated. Paul (and the SoF) is clearly making claims/promises/guarantees about the future of genuine believers. Yet your re-wording (and reference to 1/2 of Paul IF THEN ELSE statement) is meant to pertain merely to the present.

Time is a created thing of God. God knows the future just as clearly as the past/present. God's love is eternal. Saved in the future is just as sure as saved in the present to God (and Paul). No thing can separate us from the love of God. Which is exactly why he knew the Corinthians that did not believe in vain were saved as he wrote back to them.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Why have you not been paying attention to the argument?

Oh, I have paid attention to your argument and compared it to Scripture. It does not stand up to the test of Scripture.

 

[JLB]

Eph 1;13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit is a seal "who is a deposit" which "guarantees our inheritance". For whom? "those who are God's possession".

What is the requirement or prerequisite or condition for receiving the Holy Spirit?

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe the Gospel, having departed from the faith, no longer satisfy the condition for having the Holy Spirit, who is the seal; God's seal of approval.


Paul goes on to warn these Ephesians, about this very thing, so that they will not be partakers of God's wrath along with the sons of disobedience.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

Same Apostle Paul, writing to the same Ephesians.

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

• I won't allow "empty words" to deceive me, or any of the members of this forum.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Oh, I have paid attention to your argument and compared it to Scripture. It does not stand up to the test of Scripture.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

Those who are in Christ, that do not bear fruit, are removed from Christ.

Are you teaching us, if someone is no longer "in Christ", they are still saved?



JLB

 

[chessman]

Assuming that's what 'unless you believed in vain' means, explain how that changes the condition for being presently saved for those who did not believe in vain.

I'm NOT changing either condition nor any Text. I totally agree with all Texts.

You are either saved or you're not. If you believe what he preached you are saved else you believed (past tense) in vain (1 Cor 15:1-2). Paul's logic is clear and supports OSAS doctrine. He got it from the Lord as did John:

It is the work of God that you believe (John 6:29).

Nothing can separate us (genuine believers) from the love of God (Rom 8:35) as we are His own possession, sealed for redemption (Eph 1:13-14). Praise the Lord!

 

[chessman]

Are you teaching us, if someone is no longer "in Christ", they are still saved?

I am saying that God takes away every branch that is in Christ. Not some of them. Not a few of them. But EVERY branch in Him, He takes away. Praise the Lord!

 

[JLB]

I am saying that God takes away every branch that is in Christ. Not some of them. Not a few of them. But EVERY branch in Him, He takes away. Praise the Lord!

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

Please show me a scripture that teaches us God removes everyone from being "in Christ".

Branches that are pruned become even more fruitful.

Branches that are removed are cast into the fire and burned.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet your claim is that we maintain our own condition (conditional security).

Then that means I saved myself when I first got saved.
The very same faith through which I got saved is the very same faith through which I continue to be saved. Therefore, according to your argument, I saved myself. I am awesome!

You are either saved or you're not. If you believe what he preached you are saved else you believed (past tense) in vain (1 Cor 15:1-2).

You're changing the text. It plainly says you are saved if you hold firmly the gospel that was first preached and by which you were saved.

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB bold mine)

But hyper-grace says you are saved even if you don't hold firmly the gospel by which you were saved. Not having believed to begin with simply makes the 'if' statement inapplicable to you.

I am saying that God takes away every branch that is in Christ. Not some of them. Not a few of them. But EVERY branch in Him, He takes away. Praise the Lord!

Where do you get this stuff? The passage says he takes away the branches that don't bear fruit. Where do you get in the passage that he takes away all branches????

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit." (John 15:1-2 NASB)

I'm taking this latest round of arguments from you as proof for me that you are unable to debate scripture honestly. So I will not be engaging discussion with you any more.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hey, FreeGrace.
Explain to us why the sinning feller at Corinth has to be turned out of the church in order for his spirit to be saved on the Day of Judgment. You say there are zero conditions for staying saved.

"1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." (1 Corinthians 5:1-13 NASB)

Note these things before you answer:

1) We know he's a member of the body, not just some lost soul of the world who never got saved, because he's being disciplined. (see 1 Corinthians 11:32 NASB, Hebrews 12:8 NASB). If he was of the world he would not be judged by the church (vs.12 above)

2) This is not about rewards. This is about whether or not his spirit will be saved on the Day of Judgment (vs.5 above).

So, just explain why this sinning person in the church must be disciplined as a son so that he can be saved on the day of judgment. You have been contending that there are zero conditions to be fulfilled for a person to be saved and to stay saved, that even 'believers' who have adopted a lifestyle of unbelief and sin are still saved because there are no conditions for salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

5“And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:5-9 NASB)

Why warn "little ones who believe in (Jesus)" (vs.6) about stumbling blocks that can send the body to "eternal fire" (vs.8) if, as you say, FreeGrace, it is impossible for one who has believed to ever go to the eternal fire despite any and all stumbling blocks?

 

[chessman]

Where do you get this stuff?

Right here:

every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it

 

[chessman]

Branches that are pruned become even more fruitful.

Wrong. The vine becomes more fruitful when the branches that have already born fruit are pruned.

 

[chessman]

I'm taking this latest round of arguments from you as proof for me that you are unable to debate scripture honestly. So I will not be engaging discussion with you

I'm taking this comment from you as proof for me that you are unable to understand the logic of an IF THEN ELSE statement and what it means to prune a grape vine.

 

[JLB]

Wrong. The vine becomes more fruitful when the branches that have already born fruit are pruned.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Branches that are "in Him" that are fruitful, are pruned and become even more fruitful.
Branches that are "in Him", that do not produce fruit are removed from being "in Him".
Branches that are removed from Him, end up being cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Not "all" branches that are "in Him" are removed from Him, as you claimed.

Only the branches that are "in Him", and are not fruitful, are removed from Him.

Branches that are removed from Him, end up being cast into the fire and burned.


JLB

 

[chessman]

I will not be engaging discussion with you any more.

Actually, you've never even engaged discussion about:

Romans 8:35, 37-39 (NASB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? ... But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ​

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. ​

Your 'argument' for your answer to Paul's question (the believer CAN separate himself); "Who will separate us from the love of Christ?" is to bring up parable or metaphor (which you don't understand) or a snip from 1 Cor 1 15:1-2's logical flow (which you also don't understand).

None of these passages contradict Paul's answer (nor things to come, ..., nor any other created thing... But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

But your answer sure does contradict Paul's as your assumption of dis-belief is a thing to come and the hypothetical ex-believer is a cteated thing).

No wonder you change the subject and accuse me of dishonest debate.