One result of being in union with Christ

[Papa Zoom]

No one EVER made any such an assertion. Please actually read posts before slandering them.

To continue in the faith does NOT mean living any way one wants. It means to be faithful and obedient. That is the ONLY WAY that God can "present us holy and blameless".


I couldn't care LESS what others claim from other threads. How about interacting with this OP?

I'm gonna dig my book out that speaks to this hyper grace thing and maybe start a new thread on just that. Maybe. I have so many books I'm reading!

 

[FreeGrace]

When presented to God as Holy and Blameless, it will not be because of me that I am such, but only because of Christ. I AM holy and blameless in Christ. Not because of any works. Works follow.

Exactly right!! Our very security is because we HAVE eternal life, which is irrevocable, and that we are IN Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, FOR the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14, 4:30.

 

[FreeGrace]

Continuing to believe in order to continue to be justified by Christ's sacrifice in heaven is not legalism anymore than it was when the believer first heard the gospel message of forgiveness of sin through Christ.

Correct. It's not legalism. It's just plain WRONG because it's unbiblical.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The use of the perjorative phrase "hyper-grace" reveals the true issue; failure to comprehend God's grace, which covers ALL our sins.

Those who use that perjorative phrase simply do not understand James 4:6 - Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

God's grace isn't "hyper". It's GREATER. Than all our sins.

The conditional security view is that God's grace is LIMITED and exhaustible. The Bible teaches that God's grace is greater than all our sins and is limitless.

And God is totally for us. 100%. His love is boundless. Grace is so great that we cannot out-sin God's Grace. That's how powerful and eternal and GREAT it is. Paul made this point clear. Then Paul made sure we understood what he wasn't saying. Should we then continue in sin? NO WAY said paul (probably with caps just like that).

Had Paul been Hispanic he'd have said, "NO WAY Jose'"

If he'd been a redneck he's have said, "Don't be stupid!"

What to do then? Jesus said, "Follow Me." How then should we live? Live a life that is worth of one's calling. Ephesians 4 1As a prisoner in the Lord, then, I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received: 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,…

 

[FreeGrace]

We all know this.
But hyper-grace OSAS says because we do wear HIS clothing (his righteousness) that makes it so we can live in our lives of unbelief and sin and we will still be saved. Go ahead, ask 'em.

Why not go further and acknowledge the CONSEQUENCES for such a stupid-headed believer who thinks they will "get away" with living how they want to? Why is that always left out?

Hyper-grace says that is not true, and worse, that it doesn't matter if you don't have works following.

Well, I've NEVER said "it doesn't matter". I've ALWAYS explained what God's discipline is about and to whom it will be directed. And for what reason it will be applied.

You are still saved even though you choose to not trust in Christ's forgiveness any longer as evident by a return to a life of sin.

This bit of false doctrine makes one's act of believing the savior. Which really means that you save yourself by your own act of believing.

But Eph 2:8,9 is very clear about the issue. We are saved by grace (which is greater than all our sins), which is THROUGH FAITH, and not of ourselves. iow, we don't and can't save ourselves.

Notice the verse doesn't say we are saved by our faith. It is God who saves, and He saves those who believe. And He saves them WHEN they believe, per John 5:24.

For anyone who will disagree with this, take it up with Jesus. He's the One who teaches this.

Hyper grace doctrine says grace IS a license to turn to willful sin and unbelief in a denial of Christ.

No, that's only your twisted version. No one needs a "license to sin". That is nonsense. By virtue of the FAC that we all have sin natures, we WILL sin. We don't need no license. Any more than one needs a license to drive. Just get into the car, turn it on and point it down the road, for heaven's sake.

They say grace is what God gives so one can stay in unrepentant sin and unbelief.

I actually DARE you to name anyone who has made such an outrageously stupid statement.

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen, bro.
But hyper-grace is teaching that you are in Christ even if you deny Christ and, as a result, do not follow him in obedience to his commands.

Please provide any verse that clearly and plainly says that our sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a GUARANTEE, A PROMISE, and FOR the day of redemption can be broken for any reason.

I'm waiting.

 

[FreeGrace]

"14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God" (Hebrews 12:14-15 NIV)

So much for thinking you can arrive at the Judgment 'not holy' and you'll be saved.

Please prove that the bolded phrase doesn't refer to what others won't see in you, the believer, if you are not holy.

iow, no one will see any resemblance to Christ-likeness in believers who aren't holy.

The phrase is pretty simple, actually.

But, please, go ahead and prove that one MUST be holy in order to get to heaven. With Scripture. Heb 12:14-15 sure doesn't say that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Non-OSAS says you received salvation the moment you believed.
The argument is you have to continue to believe to keep it:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

Not that one again. It's already been explained thoroughly, and you've chosen to reject the explanation.

The verse does NOT say that one has to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, as is being assumed. But I understand that is what you've taken it to mean. But it doesn't. And a very reasonable explanation has been given. Nothing further will change anyone's mind, it seems.

 

[FreeGrace]

They have been posted over and over and over again. You denying them is not an argument.

Your claiming them is not an argument.

You sure got guts, deciding you can lead people back to their old lives of unbelief and sin, comforting them with a false comfort that they will still be saved on the Day of Judgment.

Since you've consistently ignored all I've said about God's painful discipline for those who disobey, your statement here is just dishonest, to say the least.

Why you've continued to push the FALSE AGENDA that I have taught that sin has no consequences is a wonderment to me. But there is no excuse for it.

The Bible is very clear that those who destroy the church will themselves be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17, Matthew 18:6 NASB, 2 Peter 2:2 NASB). You got guts, man. I'm pretty sure you're not stronger than God.

Exactly right! But just not the way you'd like it to be. To be destroyed has to do with God's painful discipline that leads to physical death.

As we see in 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, not their children. They ALL (except for Joshua and Caleb) physically died in the desert on the 40 year forced march as a result of their continued lack of faith.

But it seems you've continued to ignore that part of my views. For no good reason.

If you want to debate the point, explain to us what YOU think destroying the church means. Yes, it's a trap. Think through your answer very, very carefully.

Just actually read my post. I've given the answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

Having read this battle for about 20 years now.. raise believing one had to be re-saved continually jumping that fence to " ultra grace" for about 5 years 20 years ago
what i have found is those who claim His Grace ,to be as you do, are most often extremely ungraceful... showing no grace or mercy to what i term fellow Christians ..

I'd really like some specifics here. Giving people the truth can be very offensive to those who don't want the truth. So what are you saying?

The promises given to the Israelits were on the condition they obey...

Eternal life has NEVER been promised on the basis of obedience. Even in the OT.

I believe we/they have grace as they were looking to the Cross we today look back at the Cross.

This is true.

The telling part is when push comes to shove those is your camp end up saying 'they were never really saved"

That would come from the Calvinists who cannot explain believers who quit believing, even though the Bible says so plainly. I wish people would deal with MY views, and not keep bringing up what everyone else seems to believe.

SIDE NOTE ultra grace .. your camp .. re-saved are simply disruptive cuz my vocabulary is limited..

No such thing as "ultra grace" and more than there is "hyper-grace". God's grace is GREATER than all our sins. Maybe some believers don't believe that and think that certain sins will UN-do all that God has done for those who have believed if they get off the "straight and narrow".

Now, that's what I'd call a very narrow view of God's grace. Quite limited as well.

And I reject the idea of being "re-saved" since I haven't found any verse that even remotely suggests such a thing. So that's NOT "my camp", as you've suggested.

 

[reba]

And I reject the idea of being "re-saved" since I haven't found any verse that even remotely suggests such a thing. So that's NOT "my camp", as you've suggested.

I never suggested it was your camp ... it was how i grew up ...
Your post is why i very rarely bother with even talking to many of your view..

 

[chessman]

Sooner or later, the real church is going to have to take an official stand against this damnable doctrine.

This site has taken a doctrinal stand on the OSAS debate. See the Statement of Faith:

We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.​

It's amazing to me to see just how many here do think genuine believers are able to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ.

So, if someone here holds to the doctrine that states genuine believers are "sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ", that's a "damnable doctrine" on your view.

Interesting.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The conditional security view MUST demand a lot of un-doing in order for its view to be valid.

Things that MUST be un-done:
1. being justified. Which is a gift of God per Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
2. having eternal life. Which is a gift of God per Rom 6:23
3. God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11;29
4. being children of God from John 1:12
5. being born again from Titus 3:5."

It does no good to talk about "Once saved, always saved."

That's not how I explain the Bible. I say "eternal security", because our eternal life is secure.

The only thing that matters is the picture the Bible offers in how we ought to conduct ourselves as believers in Jesus.[/QUOT]
And I agree completely. We are to be holy and obedient for 2 biblical reasons:
1. for eternal reward
2. to avoid God's discipline, which can be very painful, and can include physical death. 1 Cor 11:30 gives us a glimpse.

And as "sheep" we need lots of instruction.

We sure do!!

We should talk of doing good works. But what are works? Going on a mission? Giving money? Is there a list?

No, it's a life habit. How you live your life. What you do. How you conduct yourself in the affair of this world. And how you respond to the Spirit's prompting in your life. God has gifted all of us in some measure. The gifts He gives are to be used for the Body: Christ's Church. What give do you you possess? I know a lady who has the give of helps. So she helps. A lot. She's a gracious host and serves others in that capacity. Others have the gift of music and they serve others by leading in music worship. Still others have the gift of encouragement and they are of great encouragement to others. On and on the list can go.

And none of this is to either gain or maintain our salvation, which is what the conditional security folk seem to believe.

Belief alone does not save anyone. If it did, the demons would be saved.

Then Paul's answer to the jailer was in error.
Acts 16:30-31
30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household.

Further, I think you've misunderstood James 2 and the demons who believe. What exactly did they believe? That "God is one". Or monotheism.

Now, why did they believe that? Well, they experienced that. Before they rebelled and fell from heaven. Their belief was based entirely on experience. And was NOT in any way related to being saved.

Our belief is NOT based on experience, but trusting in what God promises to those who trust in His Son to save them.

The demons experienced monotheism. But we take God at His word. The demons didn't believe in monotheism because they were taught monotheism. That's the difference.

Faith is action. Actions are the demonstration of true faith. I think the Bible is pretty clear on these points.

We all think things about the Bible. What the Bible plainly teaches is that we are saved by trusting in Christ as Savior. Plain and simple.

And we are saved FOR good works, as Eph 2:10 indicates - For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And Paul explained quite clearly how one gets to be "in Christ" in Eph 1:13. By believing in Christ. Which is what saves us. And the purpose is to "do good works".

The Bible does NOT teach that being saved guarantees that works will follow. If that were true, then all the commands to be holy, etc would be unnecessary and pointless.

There are 2 sides to the "coin". The believer is commanded to "do good works/be holy/etc" in order to be rewarded in eternity, and to avoid God's painful discipline on earth.

Just as our human fathers disciplined us to behave, so God does the same for His children. Heb 12
5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?
8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.
9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live!
10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

For some odd reason, the conditional security folk consistently ignore v.11. To them, any unrepentant sin or lack of faith will be met by a total removal of salvation. Which is not taught in Scripture.

What is taught is discipline, which is PAINFUL. But they treat eternal security doctrine as if one can sin without any consequence, which is just a bald faced LIE.

 

[FreeGrace]

My Uncle ... lived as a Christian in his youngerdays Any one here would have thought him so.. He died cursing God . and lived what we would term a sinful life in his older years... was he saved ?
by sinful: sleeping with different women , drunk, stealing ,cussing ,

The only question is this: regardless of how he lived in his younger years, did he EVER put is trust in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, for his salvation? If he did, he WAS saved and IS in eternity now. Because of God's grace. Simple as that.

Second question: for how many sins did Christ die for?

If He died for ALL sins, then the lifestyle has NO BEARING on getting into heaven.

The Bible says He died for all sins. So lifestyle CANNOT be an issue for getting into heaven.

Lifestyle ABSOLUTELY is an issue in whether God will spank His children during this life, and whether they will be rewarded in the next life.

I continue to wonder WHY the conditional security crowd never addresses these points.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is up to God. However, it would not appear to me that he was. It's certainly not consistent with God's call on a Christian's life. One would expect to see the opposite from a true believer. If I were forced to answer either yes or no I'd lean towards no.

It would seem because of his 'later years' lifestyle, he was being spanked by God. Thus, his cursing. What do rebellious children do when disciplined usually? They resent it and hate the parent for the discipline. But Heb 12 is clear about the purpose of God's discipline:
11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

IOW, one must respond to discipline in order for it to be useful. One is trained by it ONLY WHEN one responds to the discipline. But there are rebellious children who resist discipline and fight it. And are not trained by it. And those children will NOT produce a harvest of righteousness, obviously.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is exactly my point Papa Zoom out comes the ol Well he was never saved. line...

Growing up believing we had to be re-saved was no joke... Today understanding what Christ did on the Cross leads me to grasp how tight He holds us how much we are loved His grace, His mercy we can be so dumb as to turn away.. make that conscious turn to deny Him...

I do hope that my posts will be taken seriously and thoughtfully. I'd be happy to answer any questions or clarify any of my points.

 

[reba]

The only question is this: regardless of how he lived in his younger years, did he EVER put is trust in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, for his salvation? If he did, he WAS saved and IS in eternity now. Because of God's grace. Simple as that.

Second question: for how many sins did Christ die for?

If He died for ALL sins, then the lifestyle has NO BEARING on getting into heaven.

The Bible says He died for all sins. So lifestyle CANNOT be an issue for getting into heaven.

Lifestyle ABSOLUTELY is an issue in whether God will spank His children during this life, and whether they will be rewarded in the next life.

I continue to wonder WHY the conditional security crowd never addresses these points.

The way this reads to me you have made my point, and that of others .

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm gonna dig my book out that speaks to this hyper grace thing and maybe start a new thread on just that. Maybe. I have so many books I'm reading!

But there is no such thing as "hypergrace". Only in the minds of those who think that eternal security abuses God's grace. Which is doesn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

And God is totally for us. 100%. His love is boundless. Grace is so great that we cannot out-sin God's Grace. That's how powerful and eternal and GREAT it is. Paul made this point clear. Then Paul made sure we understood what he wasn't saying. Should we then continue in sin? NO WAY said paul (probably with caps just like that).

Exactly! But we don't stop sinning to be saved, or to stay saved.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"And I reject the idea of being "re-saved" since I haven't found any verse that even remotely suggests such a thing. So that's NOT "my camp", as you've suggested."

I never suggested it was your camp ... it was how i grew up ...
Your post is why i very rarely bother with even talking to many of your view..

What was in my post that would lead you to 'rarely bother' talking about it?

As to "camp", it seemed that you were lumping a view in my camp which doesn't exist in my camp. Sorry that I took it incorrectly.