One result of being in union with Christ

[Jethro Bodine]

But, what is the condition? v.22 says that God "has reconciled you" through the death of Christ, "to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation."

Therefore the 2 verses are saying that ONLY IF one continues in their faith will God be able to "present you holy, without blemish and free from accusation".

"14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God" (Hebrews 12:14-15 NIV)

So much for thinking you can arrive at the Judgment 'not holy' and you'll be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please provide any verse that makes continual faith a condition for salvation. And I'll refute that notion from the aorist tense.

Non-OSAS says you received salvation the moment you believed.
The argument is you have to continue to believe to keep it:

"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The Holy Spirit is a seal "who is a deposit" which "guarantees our inheritance". For whom? "those who are God's possession"."

And who are those who are God's possession? Believers, of course. Not former believers who now deny Christ and who have lost access to the efficacy of Christ's continuing ministry in heaven because they no longer believe in it (Hebrews 7:25 NASB, Hebrews 10:26 NASB, Romans 5:1-2 NIV).

It goes much further than that. God's possession includes those who HAVE BEEN justified, born again, and are children of God. And there are NO verses about any of these things being reversed, which the conditional security position MUST DEMAND.

The promises are for those who presently believe.

Please demonstrate this through proper exegesis. Opinions simply don't count in this discussion.

They do not apply to Christ denying ex-believers.

This opinion has YET to be demonstrated or proven from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Note that non-OSAS do not nullify or contradict the passages used to defend OSAS.
But passages interpreted as OSAS nullify the plain non-OSAS passages.
Check it out.

Actually, each position nullifies or contradicts the other position. It cannot be any other way.

One's salvation is either eternally secure, or is conditionally secure. Can't have it both ways. ever.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"The Holy Spirit is a seal "who is a deposit" which "guarantees our inheritance". For whom? "those who are God's possession"."

It goes much further than that. God's possession includes those who HAVE BEEN justified, born again, and are children of God. And there are NO verses about any of these things being reversed, which the conditional security position MUST DEMAND.


Please demonstrate this through proper exegesis. Opinions simply don't count in this discussion.


This opinion has YET to be demonstrated or proven from Scripture.

They have been posted over and over and over again. You denying them is not an argument.

You sure got guts, deciding you can lead people back to their old lives of unbelief and sin, comforting them with a false comfort that they will still be saved on the Day of Judgment. The Bible is very clear that those who destroy the church will themselves be destroyed (1 Corinthians 3:17, Matthew 18:6 NASB, 2 Peter 2:2 NASB). You got guts, man. I'm pretty sure you're not stronger than God.

If you want to debate the point, explain to us what YOU think destroying the church means. Yes, it's a trap. Think through your answer very, very carefully.

 

[FreeGrace]

Colossians 1:21-23 (LEB) And although you were formerly alienated and enemies in attitude, because of your evil deeds, but now you have been reconciled by his physical body through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you remain in the faith, established and steadfast and not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. ​

We are reconciled NOW.
We are reconciled now through HIS death (not our sinlessness).

His theoretical un-death could theoretically un-reconcile us.

Interesting point. The conditional security view MUST demand a lot of un-doing in order for its view to be valid.

Things that MUST be un-done:
1. being justified. Which is a gift of God per Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
2. having eternal life. Which is a gift of God per Rom 6:23
3. God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11;29
4. being children of God from John 1:12
5. being born again from Titus 3:5.

We will be present Holy and blameless IF we remain steadfast in the hope that it is His death that HAS reconciled us.

Such a MIS-reading leads to a false notion. We will NOT "be present", as you've noted. But, we'll be presented as holy, etc. But only if we continue in the fiath. And neither Col 1:22 or 23 says "if we remain steadfast in the hope that has reconciled us.

At least the capitalized "HAS" was acknowledged. Our reconciliation HAS been accomplished. That HASN'T been un-done, nor even warned about being un-done by any means.

Now there's a reason to believe in eternal security IN Christ's death.

There are lots of reasons to believe in eternal security. The Bible is very clear on this. All of which has been thoroughly explained.

 

[Papa Zoom]

We all know this.
But hyper-grace OSAS says because we do wear HIS clothing (his righteousness) that makes it so we can live in our lives of unbelief and sin and we will still be saved. Go ahead, ask 'em.


Hyper-grace says that is not true, and worse, that it doesn't matter if you don't have works following. You are still saved even though you choose to not trust in Christ's forgiveness any longer as evident by a return to a life of sin.


Okay, good. You do not believe hyper-grace doctrine.
Let's contend for the faith together and send these hyper-grace/ free grace doctrines packing!
Read the following passage carefully and deliberately:

"3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB)

Hyper grace doctrine says grace IS a license to turn to willful sin and unbelief in a denial of Christ. They say grace is what God gives so one can stay in unrepentant sin and unbelief. While the Bible says grace was given us so we can say 'no' to ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12 NASB). Do you think I'm kidding when I say that's what they believe and teach others?

I know that's true. I've received push back myself when I've argued for the necessity of works in a believer's life. I've had others tell me "NO!" when I tell them that there are oughts in the Christian life. They are good people and they just put such an emphasis of grace that they miss the bigger picture. But they never contend that one can go on sinning. That, they would say, would be inconsistent with any profession of faith in Christ.

 

[reba]

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think that God DID 'take sides'? Isn't the plan of salvation totally His plan in the first place?

Yes, therefore, it is more than helpful to know what His Word reveals about His plan. Simple as that.

Further, the Bible doesn't present both sides. Only one side. The truth. And Paul encourages the believer to be diligent (through study) to present him/her self to be an approved workman, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15. Otherwise, they will be ashamed. (for their lack of study)

Having read this battle for about 20 years now.. raise believing one had to be re-saved continually jumping that fence to " ultra grace" for about 5 years 20 years ago
what i have found is those who claim His Grace ,to be as you do, are most often extremely ungraceful... showing no grace or mercy to what i term fellow Christians ..

The promises given to the Israelits were on the condition they obey...
I believe we/they have grace as they were looking to the Cross we today look back at the Cross.
The telling part is when push comes to shove those is your camp end up saying 'they were never really saved"

SIDE NOTE ultra grace .. your camp .. re-saved are simply disruptive cuz my vocabulary is limited..

 

[chessman]

What a foolish, uninformed argument.

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine)

The rocky soil man was not the one soil that understood the word (the good soil).

Matthew 13:23 (NASB) And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”​

Anytime someone does not understand the word, they do not have a belief that saves. I was speaking of a saving belief.

Obviously someone can believe Christ did not rise for a while, then stop believing that.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Interesting point. The conditional security view MUST demand a lot of un-doing in order for its view to be valid.

Things that MUST be un-done:
1. being justified. Which is a gift of God per Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17
2. having eternal life. Which is a gift of God per Rom 6:23
3. God's gifts are irrevocable from Rom 11;29
4. being children of God from John 1:12
5. being born again from Titus 3:5.


Such a MIS-reading leads to a false notion. We will NOT "be present", as you've noted. But, we'll be presented as holy, etc. But only if we continue in the fiath. And neither Col 1:22 or 23 says "if we remain steadfast in the hope that has reconciled us.

At least the capitalized "HAS" was acknowledged. Our reconciliation HAS been accomplished. That HASN'T been un-done, nor even warned about being un-done by any means.


There are lots of reasons to believe in eternal security. The Bible is very clear on this. All of which has been thoroughly explained.

It does no good to talk about "Once saved, always saved." The only thing that matters is the picture the Bible offers in how we ought to conduct ourselves as believers in Jesus. And as "sheep" we need lots of instruction. We should talk of doing good works. But what are works? Going on a mission? Giving money? Is there a list?

No, it's a life habit. How you live your life. What you do. How you conduct yourself in the affair of this world. And how you respond to the Spirit's prompting in your life. God has gifted all of us in some measure. The gifts He gives are to be used for the Body: Christ's Church. What give do you you possess? I know a lady who has the give of helps. So she helps. A lot. She's a gracious host and serves others in that capacity. Others have the gift of music and they serve others by leading in music worship. Still others have the gift of encouragement and they are of great encouragement to others. On and on the list can go.

Belief alone does not save anyone. If it did, the demons would be saved. Faith is action. Actions are the demonstration of true faith. I think the Bible is pretty clear on these points.

 

[Papa Zoom]

If your faith doesn't change the way you think and act, what good is it?

 

[reba]

But they never contend that one can go on sinning.

My Uncle ... lived as a Christian in his youngerdays Any one here would have thought him so.. He died cursing God . and lived what we would term a sinful life in his older years... was he saved ?
by sinful: sleeping with different women , drunk, stealing ,cussing ,

 

[reba]

It does no good to talk about "Once saved, always saved." The only thing that matters is the picture the Bible offers in how we ought to conduct ourselves as believers in Jesus. And as "sheep" we need lots of instruction. We should talk of doing good works. But what are works? Going on a mission? Giving money? Is there a list?

No, it's a life habit. How you live your life. What you do. How you conduct yourself in the affair of this world. And how you respond to the Spirit's prompting in your life. God has gifted all of us in some measure. The gifts He gives are to be used for the Body: Christ's Church. What give do you you possess? I know a lady who has the give of helps. So she helps. A lot. She's a gracious host and serves others in that capacity. Others have the gift of music and they serve others by leading in music worship. Still others have the gift of encouragement and they are of great encouragement to others. On and on the list can go.

Belief alone does not save anyone. If it did, the demons would be saved. Faith is action. Actions are the demonstration of true faith. I think the Bible is pretty clear on these points.

LIKE BUTTON

 

[Papa Zoom]

My Uncle ... lived as a Christian in his youngerdays Any one here would have thought him so.. He died cursing God . and lived what we would term a sinful life in his older years... was he saved ?
by sinful: sleeping with different women , drunk, stealing ,cussing ,

That is up to God. However, it would not appear to me that he was. It's certainly not consistent with God's call on a Christian's life. One would expect to see the opposite from a true believer. If I were forced to answer either yes or no I'd lean towards no.

 

[chessman]

That is what he's saying. Trust me.

No it's not. Not even remotely true that I said:

it means believing they are saved despite living an unrighteous life.

Being presented Holy and blameless means ... hold on to your hat ... being presented Holy and blameless.

What it doesn't mean is "believing they are saved despite living an unrighteous life".

 

[reba]

That is exactly my point Papa Zoom out comes the ol Well he was never saved. line...

Growing up believing we had to be re-saved was no joke... Today understanding what Christ did on the Cross leads me to grasp how tight He holds us how much we are loved His grace, His mercy we can be so dumb as to turn away.. make that conscious turn to deny Him...

 

[reba]

Very good talking with you Papa Zoom i see much of the Beatitudes in your words..

 

[FreeGrace]

Folks, look how hyper-grace doctrine redefines being blameless and mature.
Instead of it meaning being blameless and mature in how you act, for them it means believing they are saved despite living an unrighteous life.

No one EVER made any such an assertion. Please actually read posts before slandering them.

To continue in the faith does NOT mean living any way one wants. It means to be faithful and obedient. That is the ONLY WAY that God can "present us holy and blameless".

Certain other people have made this same argument in other threads (I'm confident the mods won't let me name their names).

I couldn't care LESS what others claim from other threads. How about interacting with this OP?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Very good talking with you Papa Zoom i see much of the Beatitudes in your words..

thanks. I hope I'm learning something finally. I'm such a late bloomer in everything!

 

[FreeGrace]

Rational people know that.
The problem is, hyper-grace OSAS people have been slipping under the radar of traditional OSAS people simply because they hear 'OSAS' and don't bother to look at what hyper-grace OSAS is actually saying.

The use of the perjorative phrase "hyper-grace" reveals the true issue; failure to comprehend God's grace, which covers ALL our sins.

Those who use that perjorative phrase simply do not understand James 4:6 - Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE."

God's grace isn't "hyper". It's GREATER. Than all our sins.

The conditional security view is that God's grace is LIMITED and exhaustible. The Bible teaches that God's grace is greater than all our sins and is limitless.