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One result of being in union with Christ

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We can not give up our salvation by becoming as He says above.... fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, ?
 
Hey, FreeGrace.
Explain to us why the sinning feller at Corinth has to be turned out of the church in order for his spirit to be saved on the Day of Judgment. You say there are zero conditions for staying saved.
Simple. Paul had turned him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, which is divine discipline, which is PAINFUL according to Heb 12:11. Should anyone be so naive as to think that Paul was teaching that for such a believer, if Satan kills him physically, that his spirit will be saved?? How does that make sense? It doesn't make any sense.

Here is what does make sense, and perfectly. The term "salvation of the spirit" occurs only here in the NT. But the term "salvation of one's soul/life is common: Luke 6:9, 9:56, Acts 27:20-37, Heb 10:39, James 1:21, 5:20, 1 Pet 1:10-11, 3:20).

The Greek word for "save" is 'sozo' and is often used to mean being healed (James 5:15) or being healthy (Matt 9:21-22, Mark 5:23, 28,34, 6:56, 10:52, Luke 7:50, 8:36, 48,50, 17:19, 18:42, Acts 4:9, 14:9).

So, what is clear is that Paul's desire is that this man's spirit be healthy in the day of the Lord Jesus.

So, just explain why this sinning person in the church must be disciplined as a son so that he can be saved on the day of judgment. You have been contending that there are zero conditions to be fulfilled for a person to be saved and to stay saved, that even 'believers' who have adopted a lifestyle of unbelief and sin are still saved because there are no conditions for salvation.
Just did. Refutation requires evidence, not mere claims to the contrary.

The whole purpose of God's discipline is explained in Heb 12. To produce righteousness in those trained by it. (v.11)

When such a sinning believer is turned over to Satan for torture leading to death, it's to get their attention so they will repent. The passage has nothing to do with loss of salvation.
 
5“And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:5-9 NASB)

Why warn "little ones who believe in (Jesus)" (vs.6) about stumbling blocks that can send the body to "eternal fire" (vs.8) if, as you say, FreeGrace, it is impossible for one who has believed to ever go to the eternal fire despite any and all stumbling blocks?
Why should anyone take metaphors literally?? Please explain such a bizarre action.

From the way you've understood Jesus' metaphors, I am quite hesitant to ask your views of John 6. :eek
 
I said this:
"No one has yet been able to show that any of the 3 specifically mentioned gifts in Romans should be exempt from Ron 11:29."
That's not my argument.
Of course not. It's an argument that you cannot win. Paul noted 3 specific gifts that are from God. And then Paul wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable. That means, specifically, that the 3 specific gifts are irrevocable.

No one has shown otherwise. Lots of claims to the contrary, but no evidence from Paul's own words.

It is totally illogical and unreasonable to separate ANY of the 3 specific gifts from what Rom 11:29 says.

[QUOTE\What you have been unable to do is show that Paul was saying Romans 11:29 NASB means that once a person has eternal life they can never lose it, even if they go back to unbelief.[/QUOTE]
Since the clear meaning of Rom 11:29 is that God's gifts and call are irrevocable, I don't have to "show" anything. Paul's words are quite clear enough for those with eyes and ears that are open.

But I showed you plainly right from the passage what Romans 11:29 NASB means,
This claim is false, as no one has shown any gift being mentioned in ch 9-11. So the context for 11:29 are AT THE VERY LEAST the 3 specific gifts that Paul already mentioned in Romans.
 
And so receiving is nothing towards salvation???
It doesn't contribute towards salvation. Nor cause salvation. That's what I meant.

You misunderstand Paul's faith vs. works argument.
And I believe that you have.

What we did not contribute to our salvation is works. But we most certainly had to trust God to be saved. The exact same faith we have to have to continue to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).
Abusing those poor verses proves nothing. They don't say what is being claimed that they say. You've rejected the reasonable explanation of them. And your view continues to conflict with all the verses about eternal security.
 
I said this:
"Then you've made it up to yourself to keep yourself saved."
You're doing it again.....calling having present faith a work of self righteousness.
How come I don't see any of those words in my quote?? Please advise.

Just post the passage that says faith is among the works of the damnable works gospel and I will concede the debate and go home.
I have no idea what your request is even about.

But, please, address my posts 234 and 235 before the mods shut this thing down. I won't say anything more to help avoid that happening and will wait for your response to those posts. I don't want you to get saved by the bell again as usually happens in these debates.
I'll get to them after I get through all the posts.
 
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We can not give up our salvation by becoming as He says above.... fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, ?
To take Rev 21:8 strictly literally would mean that lying will get you in hell, being fearful will get you in hell, along with the other things listed.

How does that make sense? Furthermore, Jesus Christ "takes away the sins of the world". John 1:29 I believe that. Therefore, there is NO SIN that will send me to the lake of fire.

Here's what WILL send people to the lake of fire: not having their names in the book of life, per Rev 20:15.

How does not not get their names in the book of life? By NOT believing the gospel and therefore NOT receiving the irrevocable and free gift of eternal life (John 3:16, 6:40, Rom 6:23, 11:29).
 
To take Rev 21:8 strictly literally would mean that lying will get you in hell, being fearful will get you in hell, along with the other things listed.

How does that make sense? Furthermore, Jesus Christ "takes away the sins of the world". John 1:29 I believe that. Therefore, there is NO SIN that will send me to the lake of fire.

Here's what WILL send people to the lake of fire: not having their names in the book of life, per Rev 20:15.

How does not not get their names in the book of life? By NOT believing the gospel and therefore NOT receiving the irrevocable and free gift of eternal life (John 3:16, 6:40, Rom 6:23, 11:29).
What you are telling me/ what i am hearing is you do not accept these words of Jesus

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It makes sense cause Jesus said it..

I read your words on John 1:29 to be universal salvation .. and your words on Rev 21:6-8 to be pray the sinners prayer, Should you then choose to not overcome, to be fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and lie.. you still have your salvation .. cause that is how it makes sense to your theology .. I just dont read it that way..
 
JB, I did answer both posts 234 and 235. Already.
You argue tirelessly about everything else over and over and over again, but now you don't want to talk about Matthew 18:5-9 NASB and 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 NASB? I'm not going to let you off the hook that easy. Start typing.
 
Matthew 18:7 (NASB) “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks!

John 17:14 (NASB) I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
A result of being in Him is...hold on to your hat...we are no longer of the world!

Oh, even as Jesus is not!
 
My perception of your view is that salvation is maintained by our own efforts. Which is a works based salvation. Which I reject.
Then you reject the clear teaching of scripture.

Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Ex. “if(in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sightIF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

It follows logically that is one does NOT “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.

2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated.

To adhere to the heretical OSAS denial of scripture's teaching, you must ignore all scripture that refutes it; you must rewrite the Bible to fit your religion as the JWs did..
 
Many people think they are devout Christians, when in fact they were only very religious, moralists who misunderstood whatever they read in the Bible.
SO what?
I wasn't talking about many people.
I reported on ONE person who was a devout Christian as a young boy (as in: Suffer the little children to come unto me) but who lost his faith when his brother got sick and died.
Your speculation as to what "some people" may or may not be is irrelevant and an attempt to dodge the facts.
But, since your position requires that you constantly dodge and deny the facts, I'm not surprised that you would attempt that red herring.
 
What you are telling me/ what i am hearing is you do not accept these words of Jesus

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I explained what it would mean if Jesus literally meant that lying results in hell, or fear. Is that your belief?

And, speaking of accepting the words of Jesus, He was clear about the RESULT of those who have been given eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH. But the loss of salvation view has those who have been given eternal life ending up perishing.

It makes sense cause Jesus said it..
Everything Jesus said makes sense. But, to the point, NOTHING He said contradicts anything else He said. Those who believe that Jesus taught loss of salvation have Jesus contradicting Himself on other MORE CLEAR verses.

I read your words on John 1:29 to be universal salvation
Those aren't my words. They're the words of John the baptist, as recorded by John the evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit. It seems from your response that you don't believe what John said.

btw, I reject the false doctrine of universalism, just to be clear. And having Christ die for ALL sins of ALL people in NO WAY results in universalism. Those who think so are confused about the issue.

and your words on Rev 21:6-8 to be pray the sinners prayer, Should you then choose to not overcome, to be fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and lie.. you still have your salvation .. cause that is how it makes sense to your theology .. I just dont read it that way..
And I don't either. btw, just to be clear again, the Bible never teaches the "sinner's prayer". No one gets saved by repeating the canned words of someone else. People get saved by placing their faith in Jesus Christ alone to save them.

Not only this OP, regarding the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption (which is future), but the fact that Romans tells us that eternal life is a gift of God (6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29) proves that salvation can not be lost.

I had a thread on eternal security proven by 5 passages. No one was able to provide any kind of reasonable explanation for what they were teaching if not eternal life.
 
You argue tirelessly about everything else over and over and over again, but now you don't want to talk about Matthew 18:5-9 NASB and 1 Corinthians 5:1-13 NASB? I'm not going to let you off the hook that easy. Start typing.
Knock it off. I've THOROUGHLY explained 1 Cor 15:1-3 to you many times. As has chessman. And I DID respond to the 2 posts you requested. If you understood them, please provide refutation, not just disagrement with them. That's how debates work.

I'm not the one who avoids discussion of certain verses. Just to be clear.
 
I said this:
"My perception of your view is that salvation is maintained by our own efforts. Which is a works based salvation. Which I reject."
Then you reject the clear teaching of scripture.
Apparently my post wasn't even read. Or maybe just not understood. However, it's not Scripture that I reject. It's your unbiblical explanation of Scriptures that I reject. Which I've already explained.

Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that
The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Ex. “if(in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.
I've already explained how you've misunderstood the subjunctive mood. If the condition IS met, then the outcome is guaranteed.

It isn't the outcome that is "maybe", but the condition.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sightIF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.
Misunderstanding. It's the last part of v.22 that is the "condition"; iow, in order for God "to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight", one MUST "continue in your faith".

Now, that is what must be refuted if one is able to do so. But that's really what the 2 verses are saying.

One simply CANNOT be presented holy, blameless, and above reproach, UNLESS one continues in the faith.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.”

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated.
Please study the context in order to determine which kind of "death" is being referred to.

To adhere to the heretical OSAS denial of scripture's teaching, you must ignore all scripture that refutes it; you must rewrite the Bible to fit your religion as the JWs did..
Jesus taught eternal security extremely clearly, so if that's heresy, I'm all in. Because I believe what Jesus taught.
 
SO what?
I wasn't talking about many people.
I reported on ONE person who was a devout Christian as a young boy (as in: Suffer the little children to come unto me) but who lost his faith when his brother got sick and died.
Your speculation as to what "some people" may or may not be is irrelevant and an attempt to dodge the facts.
But, since your position requires that you constantly dodge and deny the facts, I'm not surprised that you would attempt that red herring.
You never came close to proving that Hitler was EVER a "devout Christian". Please cite a credible source.

Anyone can make a claim. I'm interesting in evidence, not just claims.
 
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We can not give up our salvation by becoming as He says above.... fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, ?

:salute

Agreed.


Let's be those, who are found hungering and thirsting for righteousness, that we may be filled with His life.



JLB
 
Jesus taught eternal security extremely clearly, so if that's heresy, I'm all in. Because I believe what Jesus taught.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2
  • Those who are "in Christ" have eternal life.
  • Those who are "in Christ" then removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



JLB
 
You never came close to proving that Hitler was EVER a "devout Christian". Please cite a credible source.

Anyone can make a claim. I'm interesting in evidence, not just claims.
If you are challenging my statement then provide proof that he was never a devout Christian, even as a child.
 
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