One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

Eggs Ackley

I prefer my eggs over hard. Or scrambled.

 

[FreeGrace]

I did get it (your view) right.

Your view is that genuine believers are able to be separated from the love of Christ.

Yet this site's SoF which derives from Paul's doctrine is that genuine believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit and thus unable to be separated from the love of Christ.

Hence, this very OP.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But your answer sure does contradict Paul's as your assumption of dis-belief is a thing to come and the hypothetical ex-believer is a cteated thing).

Faith is now a created thing? Really?

 

[FreeGrace]

He was a devout Christian as a young boy having a child's faith.
When his brother died, he became angry with God and you know the rest of the story.

Many people think they are devout Christians, when in fact they were only very religious, moralists who misunderstood whatever they read in the Bible.

Remember that the devil deceives the whole world, according to Rev 12:9. The deception is that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. Which, incidentally, isn't too far removed from your views.

If your "gospel" teaches that such a man has eternal life then you are preaching a gospel that has no connection to the one in the Bible.

My gospel (without the silly quote marks) is the biblical gospel that teaches that eternal life is a gift of God, AND that the gifts of God are irrevocable. No one has yet been able to show that any of the 3 specifically mentioned gifts in Romans should be exempt from Ron 11:29. Not even Paul tried to do that.

1Co 6:9-10 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Apparently, you do not know.

No, apparently, you do not know. This passage, along with the 2 other parallel passages on the very same subject, are about loss of eternal rewards. I've explained it numerous times. Anyone is free to accept or reject what ever they wish to.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"My perception of your view is that salvation is maintained by our own efforts. Which is a works based salvation. Which I reject."

(See, Papa Zoom. This is what I was talking about. He considers 'believing' to be equivalent to the work that can not justify.

I've NEVER considered believing to be any kind of work. In fact, I've repeatedly used both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 to show that works are NOT required for salvation. But faith in Christ IS required for salvation.

So you haven't even followed any of my posts, it seems.

 

[FreeGrace]

Lol, you're still not listening.
Of course GENUINE BELIEVERS can NOT be separated from the love of God in Christ. Present believing is indeed the condition for being presently saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Your abuse of these 2 verses has been thoroughly been presented and refuted.

It is ex-believers that can be separated from the love of God in Christ.

Then WHY are there NO verses that actually state that on-going belief is required to remain saved?

And the aorist tense refutes the notion. Please address the aorist tense.

Those who do not hold fast to what they first heard and were saved by are no longer saved.
Why have you not been paying attention to the argument?

Why haven't you paid any attention to the 2 verses just quoted? They say NOTHING of being "no longer saved".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, apparently, you do not know. This passage, along with the 2 other parallel passages on the very same subject, are about loss of eternal rewards. I've explained it numerous times. Anyone is free to accept or reject what ever they wish to.

Parker, hyper-grace doctrine invented this place in between the kingdom of God and hell where unrewarded 'believers' go.

No one has yet been able to show that any of the 3 specifically mentioned gifts in Romans should be exempt from Ron 11:29.

That's not my argument.
What you have been unable to do is show that Paul was saying Romans 11:29 NASB means that once a person has eternal life they can never lose it, even if they go back to unbelief. But I showed you plainly right from the passage what Romans 11:29 NASB means, and it has NOTHING to do with a person believing and then not believing but still having eternal life. What it is about is plainly spelled out for us right in the passage in Paul's own words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then WHY are there NO verses that actually state that on-going belief is required to remain saved?

And the aorist tense refutes the notion. Please address the aorist tense.

Reba, he's not listening again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
"My perception of your view is that salvation is maintained by our own efforts. Which is a works based salvation. Which I reject."

I've NEVER considered believing to be any kind of work. In fact, I've repeatedly used both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 to show that works are NOT required for salvation. But faith in Christ IS required for salvation.

So you haven't even followed any of my posts, it seems.

If you say I'm saing salvation is maintained by my own efforts, and I say that it is our continuing faith that maintains our salvation, then you are indeed saying the necessity to have faith is the self effort of a works gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Freegrace, please hurry and get to posts 234 and 235.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this"
"And...missing the point again. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, according to Jesus in John 5:24. It is to those who have been given eternal life that they will never perish, unlike your claims to the contrary."

Why haven't you been listening to what I've been saying all these months?

Why haven't you listened to what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life to? They WILL NEVER PERISH. He added NO CONDITIONS to those He gives eternal life to for NEVER PERISHING.

The simple FACT of receiving eternal life means that they WILL NEVER PERISH.

The correct non-OSAS argument regarding when you receive salvation, that you seem to not be able to hear, is that you receive justification/ salvation the moment you believe in God's forgiveness for sin. This point is not in contention.
The argument is you have to continue to believe in order to keep it (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

Which these 2 verses do NOT teach. Not even close. And you've missed the point that Jesus' promise of NEVER PERISHING is to those He gives eternal life, WITHOUT ANY OTHER CONDITIONS attached.

If your views were correct, then Jesus was irresponsible to leave out any conditions that would lead to perishing for those He gives eternal life.

But the FACT that He didn't add any conditions proves your view to be incorrect. Because there are NO OTHER CONDITIONS FOR "NEVER PERISHING", once one receives eternal life.

When the Bible speaks of being saved, past tense, that in no way shape or form nullifies the fact that you have to keep believing in order to keep being saved.

Then prove it from Scripture that actually says so. And 1 Cor 15:1,2 doesn't say what you claim.

But, on the other hand, where the Bible speaks of the necessity for present tense believing to be saved, that completely and utterly destroys and annihilates the hyper-grace argument that salvation is a completely past tense event.

The use of the present tense has nothing to do with any so-called "necessity". Both Paul and Jesus used the aorist tense just as much, showing that your claims aren't true.

One is saved by a point in time (aorist) belief in Christ. We are saved in a moment of time, not over a time span.

When the present tense is used, it is simply teaching that if you are believing NOW, you are saved NOW. But you've distorted that into a "necessity" to keep believing in order to keep being saved, which the Bible NOWHERE says.

IOW, your OSAS aorist argument does not nullify my non-OSAS present tense argument.

The claim is hollow. Sure the aorist tense refutes your incorrect views about the present tense.

But my non-OSAS present tense argument completely nullifies your OSAS aorist tense argument. Completely and utterly.

Completely backwards.

 

[chessman]

Faith is now a created thing? Really?

Read it again.

your assumption of dis-belief is a thing to come

So that's your engagement with Paul's answer? Dis-belief is not a thing to come? Really?

Paul covered "things to come" in his list of things that will not separate us from the love of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Grace means that our salvation has nothing to do with us"

What do you mean it had nothing to do with us? We had to BELIEVE to get it.

What I mean is that we did NOTHING to contribute to our salvation. God does all the saving. Want to argue that?

We RECEIVE what God did.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"There is no such thing. God's greater is simply GREATER than all our sin. It's worse than a shame that there are believers who don't believe that."

You did not bother to explain why "God's greater is simply Greater" than the sin of treating the blood that sanctified you as an unclean thing.

Looks like you repeated my typo. I means "God's GRACE is GREATER than all our sin."

But obviously there is disagreement on your side. That God's grace isn't greater than all our sin. Like the "sin of treating the blood that sanctified you as an unclean thing", whatever that may mean.

Since your view is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches, there really is no reason for further discussion. Not only are we not on the same page, we're in different universes, it seems.

Hebrews 10:26-31 shows us that God's grace does not cover the sin of unbelief in a casting down and trampling of the blood of Christ that sanctified them.

Here we have an opinion with a Scripture tag. How about quoting the verse and providing a verse by verse exegesis of each verse?

Your technique can be used by anyone to teach anything at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I mean is that we did NOTHING to contribute to our salvation. God does all the saving. Want to argue that?

We RECEIVE what God did.

And so receiving is nothing towards salvation???
You misunderstand Paul's faith vs. works argument. What we did not contribute to our salvation is works. But we most certainly had to trust God to be saved. The exact same faith we have to have to continue to be saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since your view is diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches, there really is no reason for further discussion.

Make sure you address my posts 234 and 235 before you stop the discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Regarding John 10:28, I said this:
"Yet, your view is that for certain reasons, some who have been given eternal life may lose it. Which goes directly against what Jesus promised."

No it doesn't, because Jesus made it clear that he was talking about BELIEVERS, not people who stopped believing.

Yet, He wasn't making any point about what may happen AFTER receiving eternal life, which it seems you're just not getting.

At the point of receiving eternal life, those people WILL NEVER PERISH. That is eternal security.

If there were conditions for NEVER PERISHING,why didn't Jesus make that clear? What a perfect verse to make the point.

The promises are secured and kept by faith.

So it seems that God's promises are broken or thwarted by our actions. Interesting, but incorrect. God always keeps His word.

People who depart the faith no longer have the faith upon which the sure promises are conditioned.

Then you've made it up to yourself to keep yourself saved. Please prove this from Scripture with clear and plain words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you've made it up to yourself to keep yourself saved.

You're doing it again.....calling having present faith a work of self righteousness. Just post the passage that says faith is among the works of the damnable works gospel and I will concede the debate and go home.

But, please, address my posts 234 and 235 before the mods shut this thing down. I won't say anything more to help avoid that happening and will wait for your response to those posts. I don't want you to get saved by the bell again as usually happens in these debates.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Eph 1;13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit is a seal "who is a deposit" which "guarantees our inheritance". For whom? "those who are God's possession"."

What is the requirement or prerequisite or condition for receiving the Holy Spirit?

"having believed". Notice the PAST TENSE. Not "currently believing", as if if one ceases to believe, they cease to have the Holy Spirit.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe the Gospel, having departed from the faith, no longer satisfy the condition for having the Holy Spirit, who is the seal; God's seal of approval.[/QUOTE]
Yet, Eph 1:13,14 does not say what you've just claimed about "believing for a while". The seal is God's GUARANTEE for the day of redemption. That is plainly clear. That's what the person is sealed FOR. It's future. Please point out anywhere in Eph 1:13 or 14 the exceptions to being sealed, or any conditions whereby the seal is broken.

That's how to prove your point. Which hasn't been done yet.

Paul goes on to warn these Ephesians, about this very thing, so that they will not be partakers of God's wrath along with the sons of disobedience.

God's discipline is sure for those stupid believers who rebel against Him. Heb 12:5-11. And God's discipline is painful.

3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:3-7

Note in v.5 that such a believer "has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God". what it doesn't say is will not get into the kingdom.

But we've been through all this before.

 

[FreeGrace]

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

Those who are in Christ, that do not bear fruit, are removed from Christ.

Where does John 15:2 say anyone is removed from Christ? Jesus was using a farming metaphor.

Are you teaching us, if someone is no longer "in Christ", they are still saved?
JLB

Yet, you've not yet proven that anyone can be removed from being "in Christ", which is maintained by the sealing with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14) and promised by Jesus Himself that the Comforter will be with us FOREVER, no less(John 14:16)

But your view is in contrast to what Jesus taught.