One result of being in union with Christ

[reba]

I explained what it would mean if Jesus literally meant that lying results in hell, or fear. Is that your belief?

I will not be trapped in your words... Jesus said what He said my theology your theology does not change His words.

And, speaking of accepting the words of Jesus, He was clear about the RESULT of those who have been given eternal life: they WILL NEVER PERISH. But the loss of salvation view has those who have been given eternal life ending up perishing.

those saved will never parish..

Everything Jesus said makes sense. But, to the point, NOTHING He said contradicts anything else He said. Those who believe that Jesus taught loss of salvation have Jesus contradicting Himself on other MORE CLEAR verses.

then every one is saved according to you ..

Those aren't my words. They're the words of John the baptist, as recorded by John the evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit. It seems from your response that you don't believe what John said.

this is what happen when the Scripture are not taken as a whole ...

btw, I reject the false doctrine of universalism, just to be clear. And having Christ die for ALL sins of ALL people in NO WAY results in universalism. Those who think so are confused about the issue.

you may reject the false doctrine but your words make you sound as if you accept it.

And I don't either. btw, just to be clear again, the Bible never teaches the "sinner's prayer". No one gets saved by repeating the canned words of someone else. People get saved by placing their faith in Jesus Christ alone to save them.

Here we agree ..saying sinners prayer was just a simple description.. knowing your reply woudl be what it was.. you also knew what i was saying and implying..

Not only this OP, regarding the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption (which is future), but the fact that Romans tells us that eternal life is a gift of God (6:23) and that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29) proves that salvation can not be lost.

I had a thread on eternal security proven by 5 passages. No one was able to provide any kind of reasonable explanation for what they were teaching if not eternal life.

So very often we think when we say something that makes it so... our words do not make anything so.. What you show me is as a Christian you fluff away the Words of our Lord from..

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Jesus says folks who do these things will have their part in the lake of fire... so here is your line sorta back at ya " Those aren't my words. They're the words of John the baptist, our Lord as recorded by John the evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit. It seems from your response that you don't believe what John Jesus said.

So round and round we go...

 

[Jim Parker]

this is what happen when the Scripture are not taken as a whole ...

That's what your entire heresy depends on; not taking ALL of scripture.

 

[Jim Parker]

I said this:.

Whatever.
I suggest a remedial reading course. Perhaps there's an adult education program you could attend.
The word "IF" always introduces a conditional outcome with more than one possibilities.
You reject scripture and you mangle the English language.

"By rights (you) should be taken out and hung
for the cold blooded murder of the English tongue."
Prof. Higgins
"My Fair Lady"

 

[reba]

That's what your entire heresy depends on; not taking ALL of scripture.

What heresy are you accusing me of?

Added : Jim Parker

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, what is clear is that Paul's desire is that this man's spirit be healthy in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Wow......a healthy spirit on the day of Judgment. That is a complete joke. This inventing of things to avoid the obvious is completely unacceptable. I'm looking for some serious, honest, mature debate here.

Why should anyone take metaphors literally?? Please explain such a bizarre action.

Metaphors represent real things. So what you have to do to is explain how the things the metaphors represent in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB can not send someone who believes in Jesus to the eternal fire despite the plain words of Jesus that they can. Of course, we will see that you will not be able to do that without resorting to creating absurd doctrines, redefining words, etc. because Jesus is making it very clear that little ones who believe in him can be made to stumble so as to go the eternal fire, but hyper-grace doctrine insists that is impossible:

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

If you offer no respectable explanation as to how this is not really a non-OSAS passage, or you just blow the passage off again we will have no choice but to conclude that hyper-grace doctrine can not explain how the obvious reference to "little ones who believe in Me (Jesus)" being "cast into the eternal fire" as the result of stumbling directly contradicts hyper-grace doctrine.

Hold on folks, get ready for some more creative hyper-grace doctrine being brewed up to explain away the obvious.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What heresy are you accusing me of?

I don't think he meant that for you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Whatever.
I suggest a remedial reading course. Perhaps there's an adult education program you could attend.
The word "IF" always introduces a conditional outcome with more than one possibilities.
You reject scripture and you mangle the English language.

"By rights (you) should be taken out and hung
for the cold blooded murder of the English tongue."
Prof. Higgins
"My Fair Lady"

We see this over and over and over again in OSAS doctrine. Passages 'don't really' mean what they so plainly say. I call them the 'not really' doctrines of OSAS.

What's sad is I see honest, respectable genuinely saved, Christ loving believers being blinded by these 'not really' doctrines, too. That to me shows how deeply embedded the OSAS heresy has become in the Protestant church. I'm convinced the hyper-grace version of OSAS is the doctrine that is leading the great apostasy in preparation for the appearing of the man of lawlessness presently occurring as prophesied in scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:3 NASB, Matthew 24:12-13 NASB).

What better way to prepare people to embrace the deceits of the man of lawlessness than to make them believe sin and unbelief has no bearing on their salvation whatsoever. Hyper-grace doctrine rationalizes away unrepentant sin and unbelief removing the necessity to endure to the end in your faith in order for you to be saved. That makes people ripe for the deceits of the coming man of lawlessness who will lead them into wholesale sin and rebellion against God.

 

[Mike]

To all participants, please refrain from saying or implying that another member does not believe scripture because they have an interpretation of scripture that is different than yours. This has been happening a lot here. Posts containing these statements will be deleted, and further action may be taken including Warnings and suspension from this discussion.

 

[JLB]

Wow......a healthy spirit on the day of Judgment. That is a complete joke. This inventing of things to avoid the obvious is completely unacceptable. I'm looking for some serious, honest, mature debate here.


Metaphors represent real things. So what you have to do to is explain how the things the metaphors represent in Matthew 18:6-9 NASB can not send someone who believes in Jesus to the eternal fire despite the plain words of Jesus that they can. Of course, we will see that you will not be able to do that without resorting to creating absurd doctrines, redefining words, etc. because Jesus is making it very clear that little ones who believe in him can be made to stumble so as to go the eternal fire, but hyper-grace doctrine insists that is impossible:

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

If you offer no respectable explanation as to how this is not really a non-OSAS passage, or you just blow the passage off again we will have no choice but to conclude that hyper-grace doctrine can not explain how the obvious reference to "little ones who believe in Me (Jesus)" being "cast into the eternal fire" as the result of stumbling directly contradicts hyper-grace doctrine.

Hold on folks, get ready for some more creative hyper-grace doctrine being brewed up to explain away the obvious.

 

[chessman]

Jesus is making it very clear that little ones who believe in him can be made to stumble so as to go the eternal fire,

The passage doesn't say, imply, suggest or even remotely eluded to the "little ones" going to the eternal fire. It is the stumbling blocks of the world, not the little ones, that are threatened with eternal fire.

You are copying a phrase about the stumbling blocks of the world (men of the world) going to eternal fire and pasting into your re-arrangement that applies it to the little ones.

BTW, you never did explain how "subsequent unbelief, i.e. ex-belief" is not a "thing to come" and thus excluded for Paul's list of things that CANNOT separate us from the love of God. This makes your argument a direct contradiction to Paul's doctrine.

Within your argument, you claim a genuine believer who has genuinely believed (versus vainly believed, past tense, see Eph 1:13-14 and 1 Cor 15:1-2) and is thusly sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit (it's the Holy Spirit doing the sealing not the believer who is a created thing, BTW) can dis-believe in their eternal life and thusly go to eternal fire in separation from the love of Christ.

Yet Paul excluded things to come from being able to separate us from the love of Christ.

Care to explain your argument's contradiction with Paul's statement in Rom 8?

Romans 8:35, 37-39 (NASB) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? ... But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ​

Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. ​

 

[JLB]

BTW, you never did explain how "subsequent unbelief, i.e. ex-belief" is not a "thing to come" and thus excluded for Paul's list of things that CANNOT separate us from the love of God.

Being cast into hell would also be a thing to come.

So we can conclude that a person being cast into hell, will still be loved by God.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Be cast into hell would also be a thing to come.

Thus the contradiction with Paul's statement in Rom 8:35-39.

Would you care to explain???

So we can conclude that a person being cast into hell, will still be loved by God.

I'm unsure if you mean this literally or facetiously.

Are you saying that being cast into Hell is not being separated from the Love of Christ?

 

[FreeGrace]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2

• Those who are "in Christ" have eternal life.
• Those who are "in Christ" then removed from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6
JLB

There is nothing more to say. Ive already explained the metaphor, which is about being removed from service, not eternal life, which is impossible, since that gift of God is irrevocable. Rom 6:23 and 11:29

Not to mention the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

In order to prove that John 15:1-6 is about being "removed from being in Christ", one MUST show verses that God really didn't mean what He promised about "guaranteeing what is to come".

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"You never came close to proving that Hitler was EVER a "devout Christian". Please cite a credible source.

Anyone can make a claim. I'm interesting in evidence, not just claims."

If you are challenging my statement then provide proof that he was never a devout Christian, even as a child.

Interesting way to totally sidestep my comments. You've made the claim. It's up to you to prove your claim. I don't have to counter-prove anything. All I've done is challenge your claim.

When I make a claim, I provide evidence.

 

[FreeGrace]

I will not be trapped in your words... Jesus said what He said my theology your theology does not change His words.

I think it's sad that anyone would think that I'm trying to trap anyone. I just gave the words of Jesus, which contradict what you think Jesus said in other places. We both can't be right.

those saved will never parish..

Yes. Eternal security.

I said this:
"Everything Jesus said makes sense. But, to the point, NOTHING He said contradicts anything else He said. Those who believe that Jesus taught loss of salvation have Jesus contradicting Himself on other MORE CLEAR verses."

then every one is saved according to you ..

How does this comment relate to anything in my quote?? But, to your point, how is "everyone saved", according to me? Please provide an explanation because I truly do not see it at all. It seems you've completely misunderstood what I've said.

this is what happen when the Scripture are not taken as a whole ...
you may reject the false doctrine but your words make you sound as if you accept it.

When you say "when the Scripture is taken as a whole", does that mean that some verses actually contradict other verses??? That's the sense I'm getting from your comments.

So very often we think when we say something that makes it so... our words do not make anything so.. What you show me is as a Christian you fluff away the Words of our Lord from..

What does "fluff away" mean? I have no idea. Everything I've claimed comes from Scripture. I don't believe that merely saying something makes it "so". Hardly. What makes words "so" is what Scripture SAYS. Only Scripture.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

So, once again I will ask this: are all liars and those who are fearful going to hell?

If so, then where does the Bible teach that Jesus Christ didn't die for those specific sins?

Jesus says folks who do these things will have their part in the lake of fire... so here is your line sorta back at ya " Those aren't my words. They're the words of John the baptist, our Lord as recorded by John the evangelist, inspired by the Holy Spirit. It seems from your response that you don't believe what John Jesus said.

So round and round we go...

We keep going "round and round" when one side doesn't answer questions. I await your answer to my question about liars and the fearful and which sins Jesus Christ didn't die for.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's what your entire heresy depends on; not taking ALL of scripture.

For sure. And in addition to providing the clear verses and passages on eternal security, I've also provided clear explanations of all the verses provided by the conditional security folk to show how and why those verses don't teach loss of salvation.

Note: the conditional security folk aren't keen on providing any explanation of the verses I've provided on eternal security.

iow, what in the heck do they teach, if not eternal security. Seems no one has any idea what they teach. They just "seem to know" those verses cannot teach eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I said this:."

Whatever.

In my post, I did say more than that. So this is just another glaring example of how your side ignores and refuses to deal with any points of the opposing side. So thanks for sharing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Jim Parker said: ↑
That's what your entire heresy depends on; not taking ALL of scripture.

What heresy are you accusing me of?

Don't worry. Being in your camp, he accuses himself as well.

 

[JLB]

I think it's sad that anyone would think that I'm trying to trap anyone. I just gave the words of Jesus, which contradict what you think Jesus said in other places. We both can't be right.

Where are the words of Jesus you quoted?


JLB

 

[reba]

what i see in your words is a total lack of grace... a flat out disregard for some of the words of Christ...

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Many other passages or verses have been posted in these circle threads.......... This theology i shared.. is harmful to many .. When i first 'noticed it in scripture i was humbled... too many of the people involved are arrogant , closed minded, cherry pick scripture the same as any one else....

What does "fluff away" mean? I have no idea. Everything I've claimed comes from Scripture. I don't believe that merely saying something makes it "so". Hardly. What makes words "so" is what Scripture SAYS. Only Scripture.

Really really ?
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The above passage is scripture which you said i only think Jesus said...

No more on this from me to youi FreeGrace there comes a time
Mat_10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.