One result of being in union with Christ

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Since the gift of eternal life is from God, and God's gifts are irrevocable, eternal life is just that: irrevocable.

No one has shown otherwise."

They cant show otherwise without yanking verses out of context.
The fact is, Salvation is an eternal accomplish on behalf of a born again person.
It cant be lost, remitted, or withdrawn.
You cant fall out of Christ, and Christ will never be taken out of you.
Salvation, as its applied to a believer, will last as long as God lives, as HE is the ONE who is supplying it.
ITs a done deal.
Its a sure thing.
"It is FINISHED".
There is no going back.

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace]

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What is your understanding the context of the above passage?

If v.8 is forced into a strictly literal meaning, then it is teaching that Christ didn't die for any of these sins.

Yet Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, not just "some of them", or "most of them", or "a few of them". All of them.

How many believers have never experienced fear of some kind? Or have never lied? How can either of these specific sins send anyone to hell?

However, I don't believe that ANY sins will send anyone to hell. Because Rev 20:15 tells us the ONLY CONDITION for being cast into the lake of fire, or second death: name not in the book of life.

That means the person never received the irrevocable gift of God, being eternal life.

So, it isn't sin that puts one in the lake of fire. It's not having God's irrevocable gift that does.

 

[reba]

Yet Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, not just "some of them", or "most of them", or "a few of them". All of them.

universalism

 

[Kidron]

universalism

No that is not what he is explaining.
He is not saying that all are SAVED, that the entire world is saved.
He is explaining that Salvation is being offered to all, but not all will have it.
The gift of the Cross, is for the sins of the world.....its a worldwide offer to "All who would come".
This is John 3:16, where God is offering to the WORLD his "only begotten" on a Cross, but, its "whosoever" that would have this solution, gets it, tho its offer is "universal".
So the offer is "universal", because the pardon is freely given to the "world"......but not all will have it.
That is Revelation 21:8.

 

[reba]

However, I don't believe that ANY sins will send anyone to hell. Because Rev 20:15 tells us the ONLY CONDITION for being cast into the lake of fire, or second death: name not in the book of life.

There is this
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[reba]

well maybe it should/could be reworded cause it reads as universalism

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Yet Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, not just "some of them", or "most of them", or "a few of them". All of them."

universalism

I get this push back from people, but without any explanation for why my statement leads to such an unbiblical view.

Could you please explain how Christ dying for all the sins of mankind would lead one to the idea that all will be saved?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"However, I don't believe that ANY sins will send anyone to hell. Because Rev 20:15 tells us the ONLY CONDITION for being cast into the lake of fire, or second death: name not in the book of life."

There is this
Rev_22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I find it quite interesting that you've focused on verses that are anything but plain and straightforward, and yet seem to dismiss or ignore other verses that are quite plain.

One thing is true from the 2 verses you've quoted: neither say anything about losing eternal life.

I firmly believe that eternal life is a gift of God because Rom 6:23 says so.
I firmly believe that God's gifts are irrevocable because Rom 11:29 says so.

Therefore, I firmly believe that eternal life is irrevocable. No one can prove otherwise, or Paul wasn't telling us the truth. He would be greatly mistaken.

 

[FreeGrace]

well maybe it should/could be reworded cause it reads as universalism

This is what I said:
"Yet Scripture teaches that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind, not just "some of them", or "most of them", or "a few of them". All of them."

My point is that Jesus Christ died for all the sins of mankind. Does that sound like everyone will be saved? If so, please explain how that would work.

Included in my comment is that Jesus Christ for all of mankind. Does that sound like everyone will be saved? If so, please explain how that would work.

The Bible teaches us that Jesus "takes away the sin of the world". Out of the mouth of John the baptizer, and recorded by John the revelator in John 1:29. Repeated by various townsfolk from Samaria in John 4:42.

Paul said that Jesus is the Savior of everyone and especially of believers in 1 Tim 4:10 and in 1 John 4:14 we read: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

Finally, we read that Jesus Christ "died for sins ONCE FOR ALL" in 7:27, 9:12, 26, 10:2, 10, 12. iow, his ONE death was for ALL sins. I don't know how else to understand the statement.

Where have I gone wrong?

 

[reba]

FreeGrace A difference of opinion does not always mean some one is wrong ...
I read universalism in your postings. I am not saying you believe in 'universalism' I dont believe you do..
The best way i can figure out to explain what i read in your posts would be for you to read them with your mind as clear of your preconcived thoughts as you can get it.. that is not a rude statement/request.. We all have preconceived ideas we just do..

Let me try this...
you are, Tom Jones, never heard or read Scriptures
and FreeGrace says to you

Paul said that Jesus is the Savior of everyone and especially of believers in 1 Tim 4:10 and in 1 John 4:14 we read: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

So you Tom walk away believing everyone is saved cause Freegrace said so

 

[JLB]

So you Tom walk away believing everyone is saved cause Freegrace said so

That pretty much sums up the way his post's come across.

No disrespect, to anyone.



JLB

 

[atpollard]

You made a statement about paying attention to context as a preface to our discussions. And we can see that the context of Galatians 5 is justification, not physical death, or rewards.
The effect of Christ that a Galatian fellow loses is justification in Christ.

"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (for justification), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision (for justification), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5: NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine)

It's easy to see from the context that the fall from grace and being severed from Christ (the vine) that is being spoken about for these saved Galatians ("Having begun by the Spirit"--Galatians 3:3 NASB) is the loss of justification.

That is what happens when you no longer trust Christ for justification. You no longer have that justification. Christ becomes of no effect for you in that regard (vs.2 above). No justification means you no longer being saved. A loss of faith in Christ means you no longer have his continuing sacrifice and ministry in heaven to justify you before the Father and keep you blameless and clean of your sins.

The more I study, the more I respect the Lutherans and their "mystery".
Sorry, I just do not see your conclusion as an irrefutable 'this is the only thing that Paul could have meant'.

Assuming that you are correct, how does this not make all of the 'assurance' verses ... well, hollow rhetoric?
"I will lose none of those (except the Galatians) and raise (most of the others) on the last day?" [John 6:39 ... just for the record]

 

[Sparkey]

Sparrow here, with just a pinch of salt to season the meal.
(our conversation is a meal, feasted upon by strangers)
We too are meals. Being prepared for our God.


Who can control the tongue? It is unruly. I doubt that James was "speaking off the cuff" and believe he was uttering words given to him by the Holy Spirit directly even as he wrote on the subject.

Our Dichotomy: Each of us have heard; none of us have heard (rightly) (more on this in a moment) but first, the quote:

But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet [water] and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so [can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who [is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife [is], there [is] confusion and every evil work. [Jas 3:8-16 KJV] ​

We know and are commanded to put a "double guard" on duty between our mouths and thoughts. The first 'guard' is posted and ordered to let no evil thought proceed. And the 2nd 'guard' is stationed at the tongue for those sneaky thoughts that get through the first checkpoint. It's that difficult, but wait, there's more. Even after having posted the "double guard" we know there's gonna still some things that get out.

Prov 30:32 English Standard Version

If you have been foolish, exalting yourself, or if you have been devising evil, put your hand on your mouth.​

Job 40:3-5
Job Promises Silence

Then Job answered the LORD and said:

“Behold, I am of small account; what shall I answer you?
I lay my hand on my mouth.
I have spoken once, and I will not answer;
twice, but I will proceed no further.”​

We are trapped in a thicket! All we know to do is bleat our call and that is the very thing that calls predators to us as well.

AND then... with a tone we all know... comes the voice of THUNDER through one known today as a 'minor' Prophet:
Micah 7:14-17 (ESV):

Shepherd your people with your staff,

the flock of your inheritance,
who dwell alone in a forest
in the midst of a garden land;d
let them graze in Bashan and Gilead
as in the days of old.​

As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt,

I will show them marvelous things.​

The nations shall see and be ashamed of all their might;

they shall lay their hands on their mouths;
their ears shall be deaf;​

they shall lick the dust like a serpent,

like the crawling things of the earth;
they shall come trembling out of their strongholds;
they shall turn in dread to the LORD our God,
and they shall be in fear of you.
​

Shepherd us *now* (even now). Count us NOT as those of The Nations but according to the abundance of Your Mercy, as Your sheep for we know Your voice. Use Your rod. Use Your staff. Judge us, each one. For Your rod and Your staff? They are our comfort.

We, your sheep, know not only your voice but we also know the sound of your slung rocks as they whiz by our heads. It's just our loved one, our Shepherd saying, "Danger afoot." But we need YOU to train us. Thank you for letting us become Your burden. Cause us to burden You more and more, for we are broken and in much need. Our strength is YOU, and Your delight in us IS our strength... Teach us and yes, Judge us --each one. Startle us if need be but do remember our frame for we are nothing and less than nothing before YOU.

For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man, [and] able also to bridle the whole body.

[Jas 3:2 KJV]​

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

[Col 3:15 KJV]​

You've heard the nations squawk about wars to end all wars? It's an oxymoron. But we need an oxymoron because we are stubborn and stiff necked. We need judgment, Your judgment(!) so that we may know peace. Come, Jesus. To your hearts for we are Yours. Come to us that we may be fully prepared to greet you On that Day.

Spoiler: Secret Stuff

We are called to be 'greater' than James

WILL HE COME AGAIN? HE WILL​

Sparrow's thought: . o O (( But will it be for the same purpose? No. That work is forever done. The working of the Holy Spirit includes our Sanctification. We need to fall in line with this 'new' work or risk finding ourselves in a group that is "dry" and not "green". ))

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace A difference of opinion does not always mean some one is wrong ...

Do you believe that Scripture offers a difference of opinion in a verse?

I read universalism in your postings.

I asked for an explanation of why that occurred.

I am not saying you believe in 'universalism' I dont believe you do..

I would like an explanation for why one would read that into my posts. There must be some reason. I'd like to know what that is.

The best way i can figure out to explain what i read in your posts would be for you to read them with your mind as clear of your preconcived thoughts as you can get it.. that is not a rude statement/request.. We all have preconceived ideas we just do..

All of our ideas are "preconceived". Unless someone just makes up stuff as they talk/write. But I don't do that. I know what I believe and I try as much as possible to post clearly. So again, it would be helpful to me to know why one would come to your conclusions about my post.

Just saying what you think my post was about doesn't help me one bit.

Let me try this...
you are, Tom Jones, never heard or read Scriptures
and FreeGrace says to you

Paul said that Jesus is the Savior of everyone and especially of believers in 1 Tim 4:10 and in 1 John 4:14 we read: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

So you Tom walk away believing everyone is saved cause Freegrace said so

I never said "everyone is saved", so apparently "Tom" didn't hear very well.

Believers think either that Christ did die for everyone or that He died only for some. The Bible doesn't give us options to choose from.

Facts are facts. We choose to either accept them or reject them, but facts are not options to choose from.

I have never in my life given just one verse to anyone. My point in my posts was that Jesus died for everyone. That is not universalism. But I would never say just that to any stranger. But here, on a Christian forum, it is expected that all believers understand how they came to be saved, which is through faith, per Eph 2:8.

 

[reba]

Do you believe that Scripture offers a difference of opinion in a verse?

Nope i do believe we understand them differently..

your conjecture of Scripture in my view reads of universealism and you dont, will not , refuse just plain ol cant see it..
I do not believe that universalim is your desire

I will say no more to you for a while ..butting heads make zero sense..

 

[Jim Parker]

universalism

No. Not universalism.
Universalism is the idea that all of mankind will eventually be saved and some teach that even the Devil and his angels will ultimately be saved.

The Gospel teaching is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. That means everyone.
"And He (Jesus) Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(1Jo 2:2 )

Because
"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

God's purpose was that the whole world would be saved.
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17)

And God knew that not everyone would accept His gift of eternal life.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:18-19 )

And while "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable," (Ro 11:29) no one is forced by God to accept the gift or to answer the call.

So the gift and calling of God to receive eternal life is to everyone with the knowledge that many (most, actually) will reject the gift and ignore the calling.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mat 7:13-14)

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

Nope i do believe we understand them differently..

OK, which is why it is helpful to explain why one believes what they do. I'm not getting much in the way of explanations of why.

your conjecture of Scripture in my view reads of universealism and you dont, will not , refuse just plain ol cant see it..

Which is why I've asked for an explanation of why one would read that into my posts.

I do not believe that universalim is your desire

I will say no more to you for a while ..butting heads make zero sense..

All I asked for was an explanation of why one might come to the conclusion that my post was about universalism.

It appears I'm not going to get one. OK.

 

[FreeGrace]

No. Not universalism.
Universalism is the idea that all of mankind will eventually be saved and some teach that even the Devil and his angels will ultimately be saved.

The Gospel teaching is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. That means everyone.
"And He (Jesus) Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(1Jo 2:2 )

Because
"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

God's purpose was that the whole world would be saved.
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." (John 3:17)

And God knew that not everyone would accept His gift of eternal life.
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:18-19 )

Thanks, Jim, for understanding.

And while "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable," (Ro 11:29) no one is forced by God to accept the gift or to answer the call.

So the gift and calling of God to receive eternal life is to everyone with the knowledge that many (most, actually) will reject the gift and ignore the calling.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mat 7:13-14)

iakov the fool

However, Rom 11:29 isn't about whether one 'accepts or not" the gifts of God or His call.

The issue of Rom 11:29 is that both God's call is irrevocable and His gifts are irrevocable. That means that His call is never revoked. And in the Greek, the word for "call" means "to invite". So God does not revoke His invitation.

As well, God's gifts are irrevocable. That has nothing to do with those who haven't accepted the gift but only those who HAVE accepted it.

iow, once the gift of eternal life is accepted, that gift is not revoked. There are no verses that say it is or can be.

 

[Jim Parker]

However, Rom 11:29 isn't about whether one 'accepts or not" the gifts of God or His call.

No. Ro 11:29 is not about accepting or rejecting; it's about the gift and calling. However, it is a fact that one can reject the gift and ignore the calling.

The irrevocable gift and calling was in reference to God's choice of Israel as His people.
So is Rom 10:21 "But concerning Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.' ” and
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mat 23:37) reiterates the fact that the gift can be rejected and the calling ignored.

The issue of Rom 11:29 is that both God's call is irrevocable and His gifts are irrevocable. That means that His call is never revoked. And in the Greek, the word for "call" means "to invite". So God does not revoke His invitation.

I agree.
But there is another side to the interchange; the "RSVP".
The invitation and calling stands forever but no one is forced to accept either.

iow, once the gift of eternal life is accepted, that gift is not revoked.

Again. I agree to a point.
The gift is never revoked, but it can be discarded.
And John 15:2 specifically states that the Father will cut off someone who is in Christ but who does not bear fruit. "In Christ" is an term which describes the sate of being "saved."
Rom 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
The word "walk" refers to the person's habitual behavior ot the works that he does whether they are of the flesh or of the Spirit.
The Gospel is not only "believe" but also that the believer "...should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance." (Acts 26:20) "works befitting repentance" is another way of saying "bear fruit."

Mat 3:7-10 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

Being cut down and thrown into the fire is the same metaphor used by Jesus at John 15. The father will cut you off from the source of eternal life (Jesus) if you do not bear fruit just as the tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (hell). (Also see Luke 13:6-7)

The parable of the talents also relates that the gift given can be taken away if the gift is not used to bring increase to our Lord. (See Mat 25:14-30 and Luk 19:24.)

Iakov the fool

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If Titus got circumcised, Would that de-save him?

Examine the scriptures to see why he got circumcised and you will have your answer.