One result of being in union with Christ

[reba]

Thanks atpollard
As Christians, would we ever sell our birthright of intimacy with God as cheaply as Esau sold his birthright?
Why throw in the word intimacy ?
As cheaply? so selling for a better price would be OK?

 

[Jim Parker]

However, in online debates, that is almost NEVER the working definition that will be thrown into my face. Instead "saved" means some reprobate who raised his hand (once) while all eyes were closed and mumbled some words that made him feel good for a whole week before he went back to his reprobate life style and never gave God another thought.

That is not the definition of "saved" that I have used.
To me, being "saved" means that one is, as Paul put it so many times, "in Christ."
God alone has life and that life is eternal life. The only way to have eternal life is to be united to Christ, or as Paul puts it in Ephesians 5, "on flesh" with Christ as a husband and wife become "one flesh."

There are those who think salvation is a matter of simply "asking Jesus into your heart" or making a "sinners prayer" but that is not a guarantee that the new believer won't be back at his old ways in short order or will fall away when the Way becomes difficult as Jesus described in His parable of the sower. Such a notion makes a mockery of the martyrs who suffered horribly at the hands of the pagans but would not deny the faith.

(Since this is A&T, let me insert MY favorite verses on Perseverance.)

John 6:35-40 [NIV]
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:44-47 [NIV]
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
While I believe it is unquestionable that Jesus would never drive anyone away who sincerely desired to be saved, this verse does not suggest that no one may choose to walk away.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
That He will loose none whom the Father has given Him appears to provide substantial support for your view but must be considered along with the many verses which indicate otherwise. Scripture frequently admonishes the believers to make sure they persevere until the end and not be lost. (John 15:1-6; RO 11:17-22; 1CO 9:27; 1CO 10:12; COL 1:21-23; HEB 3:12-14; HEB 6:4-6; PHP 3:7-14; 2PE 1:5-10; 2PE 2: 20-21; EZE 18:24)
All of mankind will be raised up at the last day. Some to eternal life and some to condemnation. ( John 5:28-29 )

John 4:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” Jesus has been lifted up.
And, again, all of mankind will be raised on the last day because all of mankind has been saved from physical death by Jesus victory over death. (1 Cor 15:51-57)

John 4:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
That does not negate the possibility that someone might cease to believe and forfeit eternal life.

An excursus:
And Jesus had some very pointed things to say about what believers were required to do in order to have eternal life which I find curiously neglected by much (most??) of reformed Protestantism today.

Jhn 6:51-58 (NKJV)
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Notice that Jesus said "who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me". He uses the same term at John 15:4-6 telling His disciples that they must "abide in" Him in order to not end up being cast into the fire.

It seems to me a great contradiction that Jesus said it is necessary to "eat my flesh and drink my blood" in order to remain (abide) in Him yet the reality of the bread and wine of the Eucharist (aka: communion) being the flesh and blood of the Lord is widely denied among Reformed Protestant traditions.

Jesus words also establish a condition to having eternal life; eating His flesh and drinking His blood which, from the earliest days of the Church was understood to be the bread and wine of the Eucharist.** Failure to meet this condition leads one to the logical conclusion that one would not experience the desired result of receiving eternal life.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)




DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.


** Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

Ignatius was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church.


“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

 

[atpollard]

Thanks atpollard
As Christians, would we ever sell our birthright of intimacy with God as cheaply as Esau sold his birthright?
Why throw in the word intimacy ?
As cheaply? so selling for a better price would be OK?

So you don't like intimacy with God, fine, no skin off my nose. [just kidding]
It was a rhetorical question. In point of fact, we do all the time. Every time we choose a comfortable set of rules over a messy relationship we have sold the deep (and intimate) relationship that Christ died to obtain for us for some cheap religion. Every time we listen to some 'Reverend FeelGood' tell us how God wants to make us wealthy beyond all human avarice and we trade the fruit of the Spirit (which for me requires a bit of work to fight against the old nature), we have sold our birthright cheap.

So the issue is not that we need to hold out for a better price, the issue is to recognize the true value of what we have been given.

[PS ... where was your verse. You are leading me astray. :wink ]

 

[Jim Parker]

While the verse is stated in the negative, the point is that one is saved when they believe the Word (seed). Producing fruit is the natural outcome of being saved.

The implication of this statement is that producing fruit is somehow "automatic". In actuality, it takes effort on the part of the believer to replace the old habits of sin with the new habits of "bearing fruit unto righteousness." I do not believe that God just takes over our bodies and has us perform works of righteousness as if we are puppets. I believe we are required to respond to and cooperate with God to "produce fruit."

Peter told the church that they were to make every effort to produce that fruit so that they would make their calling and election sure and never fall.
2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[reba]

So you don't like intimacy with God, fine, no skin off my nose. [just kidding]
It was a rhetorical question. In point of fact, we do all the time. Every time we choose a comfortable set of rules over a messy relationship we have sold the deep (and intimate) relationship that Christ died to obtain for us for some cheap religion. Every time we listen to some 'Reverend FeelGood' tell us how God wants to make us wealthy beyond all human avarice and we trade the fruit of the Spirit (which for me requires a bit of work to fight against the old nature), we have sold our birthright cheap.

So the issue is not that we need to hold out for a better price, the issue is to recognize the true value of what we have been given.

[PS ... where was your verse. You are leading me astray. :wink ]

The passage was of Esau selling his birthright
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

It was not on the nature of the the birthright but the fact he gave it up...

 

[Jim Parker]

Why throw in the word intimacy ?

Eph 5:30-32
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
I'd say being "one flesh" with Christ was a pretty intimate situation.


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)



DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Mike]

Since this is my thread

It's not your thread. Just sayin...

 

[Sparkey]

Sparrow swoops in, grabs the thread in his beak, and flies off.
. o O (Mine, mine, she's totally mine) "CHIRP!"
OOPS! When will I learn to not speak with my beak [FULL o' thread]

My consistent point is that "saved" refers to anyone who has placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as Savior.

Okay. Got it. Thanks.
"Hmmmm... This may be a tough nut to crack. One moment, please."
Kindly consider the fluidity of the human condition as seen from the earthly, time bound, perspective.
Judas Iscariot comes to mind as an illustration. Follow with me, as I try to make the point.

Please note that the Gospel of John was written more than 50 days after the Crucifixion.
There should be no argument there.
We find Judas described in the Gospel, John 12:6 (ESV), "He said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it."

Now...
Add to that Scripture (here a little, there a little) this tid-bit:
Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV): The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
You may be more familiar with Jer 17:9 (KJV): The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Okay, have I said enough? Should I "unpack" this a little further?
Okay, I'll try.

Spoiler: Sparrow's hint

We know that Judas was a thief. The Bible tells us so. It's the same way we know that Jesus loves us, or that God is Good, for that matter, because Jesus, the Word of God, tells us so. But, and here is the rub. Did Judas know he was an unrepentant sinner Did he know from before he did it, what he would do? Did the owner of the deceitful heart know his heart or did he maybe lie to himself. We could do a word study on the nature of deceit and/or deception but it stands to reason that those who are deceived do not know the truth about something. What about at the Last Supper when a Prophet of God said so directly? Did denial kick in as a reflex? Or was he pricked in his conscience to repent? Do you think he was awake and aware while filled with willful sin or was he just obeying the master to whom he submitted his members to. Ecc 8:8 (NIV) ... As no one is discharged in time of war, so wickedness will not release those who practice it.

Have you ever experienced this? I don't mind admitting that I have. I used to pretend lots of things about my righteousness (like when I helped that lady with her load of stuffs as a cub scout and all I was doing was telling myself, reassuring myself, that I was a good boy. See what I did?) but this isn't the place for confession. Or is it? No. Not the appropriate place, but the point is the point. Sometimes it takes conviction by the Holy Spirit to 'see' things. The question, "Who is blind, but my servant?" comes to mind.

Who is blind but my servant,

or deaf as my messenger whom I send?​

Who is blind as my dedicated one [1],

or blind as the servant of the Lord?​

Footnotes:

1. Isaiah 42:19 Or as the one at peace with me

Heck, the Holy Spirit did such a great job at explaining things through the pens of the writers of the Good News of The Christ, our Jesus --that we sometimes lose sight of who the Author actually was and is and shall always will be. We sometimes stand in that light, the illumination of the HS, and sometimes misappropriate HIS knowledge so freely given. I'm not saying we are "stealing" the free gift and not comparing any here to the betrayer, Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, but I am saying that had any of us been there, just like the disciples were, we would not have noticed anything 'strange' or 'different' about that man to set him apart from the group of Disciples following closely after The Christ. Even with our cell phones snapping selfies left and right I doubt we could tell the difference and am sure neither could anybody there.

But why leave it here? What about Simon Peter and his three-time betrayal. Did he know what he would do or was he utterly convinced that it would never happen? You already know about this, again as illuminated by the Spirit, Holy.

If our knowledge comes from revelation, why pretend we know about us? That we, of ourselves, are able to decipher ultimate mysteries? I am not convinced. Not one whit.

The Holy Spirit had not been 'given' until 50 days after at the appointed time during the Jewish festival of Shavuoth, 49 days after the first day of Passover (i.e. the 50th day, including Passover itself) (Christians call that 'Pentecost'). Yet, hindsight is 20/20, right? But, hindsight is not Holy Spirit given knowledge nor is it the anointed Word of Truth. It's just us, baby. By ourselves, thinking about stuff from the past, like when we studied the Bible, and those thoughts become "ours" because we identify them that way. Now THAT is natural. We all do it. We turn our dark mirror, for we do see as if through a mirror, darkly (For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known -1Cor 13:12 (NIV)) --and we may even take a quick peek at ourselves, a self-check if you will, and the Holy Spirit helps there too, but we turn and straightaway forget what manner of men we are (according to the Holy Spirit as written thru the pen of James 1:23 (ESV) "For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.. ")

Winding down here:
Thieves are NOT doers of the word. They (and all who remain in sin) are part of the group who are deceived. These definitions are a given. Those who continue in deception are deceived and can not perceive the truth. So the argument boils down to Faith and Belief and Trust, yes? But to the sinner? It's useless. It's an invalid test because it can not yield a

Back in the time of Judas again, where they didn't have the NT Bible to study. They had their natural senses. Like us. Only the natural. No operation of the Gift of Knowledge as the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. So, they were like many both here and there. Even now. But I'm not trying to switch or hijack the thread into a discussion of the 9 Gifts. That's another topic. Don't look at the man behind the mirror - he's no wizard either.

Still, it's my considered opinion that the whole argument about "OSAS" is a juxtaposition where all at once we may imagine ourselves able to perceive more than our natural can grasp on our own terms. We've somehow transported ourselves into the heavenlies to argue from that vantage point and yes, from there, I would agree, OSAS. Much the same way that there is One Church, One Faith etc (see Ephesians 4:4-8 (ESV), for "there is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says,

“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,​

and he gave gifts to men.”
_____________
From Footnotes:
The Greek word anthropoi from verse 8 "gifts to men," can refer to both men and women.​

But for me, for us, for now? I am content to wait for my Redeemer to pronounce His Judgment and until that day, remain a Child of the Promise. The whole OSAS thing is an invalid argument because until we are there, and while we are here, it is an argument from ignorance. That's why.

Who can say the "Amen" to that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, in online debates, that is almost NEVER the working definition that will be thrown into my face. Instead "saved" means some reprobate who raised his hand (once) while all eyes were closed and mumbled some words that made him feel good for a whole week before he went back to his reprobate life style and never gave God another thought. Then some 'you can fall from grace' advocate is going to accuse Calvinism of teaching that this reprobate is saved and will still get into heaven. Furthermore, because I claim to believe what early church fathers (including the Apostle Paul) taught, that which John Calvin reasserted in response to the Arminian heresy, that I MUST also believe that this reprobate was "once saved, always saved".

Thus I am reluctant to embrace the term (OSAS) not because I believe salvation can be lost, but because the expression is too often abused. The Chosen will Persevere makes it much clearer that I reject the strawman 'what if' that many wish to stick to OSAS.

We all know about false brethren. They never had God's grace to fall from. But I'm pretty sure when non-OSAS refers to 'saved' people, it means exactly that--saved people whom God has accepted. The fall from grace which happens to saved people is indeed a fall from the grace of God they surely had--the Galatians, for instance:

"2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" (Galatians 3:2-5 NASB bold mine)

"4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4 NASB bold, italics, and underline mine)

Which is interesting because it is traditional OSAS that says the person who falls from God's grace was never connected to Christ in the first place that he should now be severed from Christ the vine. It claims he was always severed to begin with and 'not really' connected.

 

[atpollard]

Who can say the "Amen" to that?

:amen

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"While the verse is stated in the negative, the point is that one is saved when they believe the Word (seed). Producing fruit is the natural outcome of being saved."

The implication of this statement is that producing fruit is somehow "automatic".

No, it is not the implication. I said "natural outcome", not "automatic". By saying "natural outcome", I mean the expected or usual outcome.

I totally REJECT the notion that good works are automatic for the genuine believer. If that were true, all the commands to "be holy" and "be worthy" are meaningless and unnecessary. Which I reject.

In actuality, it takes effort on the part of the believer to replace the old habits of sin with the new habits of "bearing fruit unto righteousness." I do not believe that God just takes over our bodies and has us perform works of righteousness as if we are puppets. I believe we are required to respond to and cooperate with God to "produce fruit."

And I agree with this. Bearing fruit is a command. To be followed. Requiring spiritual growth.

 

[FreeGrace]

violations of 1.3 and 2.14 reba

 

[FreeGrace]

From Footnotes:
The Greek word anthropoi from verse 8 "gifts to men," can refer to both men and women.​

But for me, for us, for now? I am content to wait for my Redeemer to pronounce His Judgment and until that day, remain a Child of the Promise. The whole OSAS thing is an invalid argument because until we are there, and while we are here, it is an argument from ignorance. That's why.[/SPOILER]

Who can say the "Amen" to that?

There is no "argument from silence" regarding eternal security. It has been shown (and rejected) throughout the NT.

But there are clear verses on our security, apart from anything required of the one who has believed.

For example, eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29. This isn't difficult to see. Eternal life is irrevocable.

Jesus noted in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life to WILL NEVER PERISH. Note, please, the LACK of any conditions on those who have been given eternal life.

So, NEVER PERISHING is based on simply receiving the gift of eternal life.

 

[chessman]

Who can say the "Amen" to that?

I can. Amen!

As someone once said to the church of God in Corinth, I say to you (Sparrow):

I give thanks to my God always for you (Sparrow) because of the grace of God that was given you (Sparrow) in Christ Jesus, that in every way you (Sparrow) were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you (Sparrow)— so that you (Sparrow) are not lacking in any gift, as you (Sparrow) wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, ...

Spoiler: And the 'rest of the story'

1Cor 1:4-:9 (ESV) ... who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thank you Sparrow. May the Dove and His gift of speech be with you.

How's your writing career going?

 

[atpollard]

Which is interesting because it is traditional OSAS that says the person who falls from God's grace was never connected to Christ in the first place that he should now be severed from Christ the vine. It claims he was always severed to begin with and 'not really' connected.

See, this is the sort of thing that causes me to shy away from phrases like OSAS. I am presented with a "traditional position" by some anonymous "they" which I am called upon to either defend, or to say 'no, I disagree with OSAS'.

I prefer to deal with the actual text of Galatians. Without getting into details, "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) would seem to be a reference to more of a dangerous stumble that will lead to death, than a loss of the "Spirit" (Galatians 5:2). I would point out that Paul is speaking to an entire church rather than a single individual, so one size may not fit all.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 [NIV] Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Does God make some to stand firm in Christ? Is the Spirit a deposit guaranteeing that guarantees what is to come? Or did God have one set of rules for the people at Corinth and another for the people at Galatia.

Just to be clear, I think that Paul was issuing a serious warning to the church at Galatia. By playing with and embracing the law rather than grace, they were placing the local body in collective danger. Like the parable of the sower (Luke 8), they were creating ground infertile to the gospel and THAT is an issue that needs addressing. Like all churches, they had wheat and tares growing side by side. To the wheat, it was a warning to return to their first love and a reminder that THEY had the Spirit in them. To the tares, it was a warning that the Law they chose to embrace over grace was a soil in which the seed of Christ and His Holy Spirit would not grow.

So does that make me OSAS or not?
Like I have maintained, I believe with all my heart that God finishes what he starts and words like "makes" and "seal" and "guarantee" mean exactly what they say ... even for the "foolish Galatians".

 

[Sparkey]

I blush. :blush Thank you, Chessman. That is high praise indeed.

Spoiler: Private response to Chessman (private, so called)

My writing career has built-in delays. Every once in awhile, the veil is pulled back and I get to see what others are given to say about things. Others such as you. We are to continue to pray in our prayer closets, to give praise to HIM and hide what our left hand is doing even from the right (as you also know). But yes, I am rich beyond imagination (let the poor say, I am rich) even as I say this so also come tears, my precious tears, they fall today and I am honored to have been so blessed as to be counted as one among you.

But I forget myself and will soon allow this word, spoken so sweetly, fade as well. Before that, thank you once again, my brother in arms! I love you. Shhhh.... :nodIt was the first time I've been greeted here at CF.net with 'an holy kiss' and to mis-quote a very strange and perhaps peculiar song, I liked it! :blush

but back to my sleepy-now task at hand:

Spoiler

...
The whole OSAS thing is an invalid argument because until we are there, and while we are here, it is an argument from ignorance. That's why.

Who can say the "Amen" to that?

There is no "argument from silence" regarding eternal security...

I saw what you did. You answered something that you did not quote. Who spoke about an argument from silence? Not me. Look again, ears open, please (if you are able). POST #348

Here's the pertinent part you quoted again, "The whole OSAS thing is an invalid argument because until we are there, and while we are here, it is an argument from ignorance."

I spoke of another informal logic fallacy, an argument from ignorance (not silence). Per WIKI (linked to the left) appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. And, as you read again *ears open* please notice the care taken to lay the groundwork in POST #348 and please do no longer seek to cumber the ground that has been worked in here. In other words, let your quotes be quotes, and your mis-quotes be left with the father of lies. This place is dedicated to peace, to the discussion of brothers and yes, sometimes even brothers will 'fight', but never to the death. No more of that, please. WE fight with our practice swords, and touch not strike. It's okay to send a private msg if you can't contain yourself, I'll understand. There are many here.

Of course, if you'd rather, you may plug your ears and continue to ignore what I have endeavoured to say as I was given and able. It's okay. Jesus is your savior, not me (as you know).

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Please show why "end of your faith" means "end of your life". I see no reason for such a leap."

Your question doesn't address my request, so I'll take it that you're unable to show why "end of faith" means "end of life".

However, to answer your question, of course I have in Jesus Christ for salvation. In fact, since I have already believed in Him, I actually possess (HAVE) eternal life.

And those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, on the basis of receivng eternal life, I WILL NEVER PERISH.

Your view is in stark contrast with Jesus' own words.

Why is that?

Do you have faith in Christ Jesus?

If so, then you indeed have the "hope" of salvation, which you will receive at the end or consummation of your faith.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

Peter is using the language of faith, to encourage those who he is writing to, to continue to the end, even under persecution.

The end result of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ is receiving the salvation you are hoping for.

Faith is the intangible substance of the "unseen" reality of salvation we are all hoping for.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

If you depart from the faith, and turn away from Christ, who is our salvation, then how can a person still hope to receive the salvation that only comes to those who believe, and have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation?


JLB

 

[WIP]

Is not the author the 'owner'? I wasn't speaking dogmatically.

If the thread is not mine, though I created it, who owns the OP?

I'll post this here for everyone's benefit.
Consider ToS 1.11.
Start a thread in TWTS if you wish to discuss this further.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you have faith in Christ Jesus?

If so, then you indeed have the "hope" of salvation, which you will receive at the end or consummation of your faith.

I have MUCH MORE than just a confident expection of eternity with God. I presently HAVE the gift of eternal life, as Jesus explained in John 5:24. And since God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable, my gift is irrevocable.

Because we are saved by grace, through faith. Eph 2:8 Oh, and "not by works" from Eph 2:9.

 

[Jim Parker]

And since God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable, my gift is irrevocable.

Then you have to explain how it is that the Father will cut off (NIV), ie: separate from Christ, anyone who does not produce "fruit." Those who are separated from Christ no longer have eternal life.

Because we are saved by grace, through faith. Eph 2:8 Oh, and "not by works" from Eph 2:9.

And Eph 2:10 says we were created "in Christ Jesus" to do good works which God prepared beforehand for us to "walk in them." (Continuously do as a mode of life)
The OSAS/NOWORKS folk consistently ignore that verse as if it were not an essential part of what Paul was telling the Ephesian believers. The verse numbers do NOT divide the text into complete little bites of data unrelated to each other. The Chapter and verse numbers are there for the sole purpose of helping us find passages. Unfortunately, people use them to chop complete thoughts of the apostles into little pieces and try to make them all stand alone as if they appeared in a vacuum.

And, absolutely, no one will be saved by works. It is by God's grace and mercy because no one measures up to a lifetime of perfect holiness that would be required. So God bestows it as a gift.

And no one who thinks they are saved will see eternal life without good works.
(John 3:36; 5:28-29; Ro 6:2-10; Mat 25:31-46; 1 Pe 1:17)
Just because God is gracious and salvation is a gift doesn't mean we don't have to be concerned to do our best to keep OUR LORD's commands.

iakov the fool