One result of being in union with Christ

[reba]

Is not the author the 'owner'? I wasn't speaking dogmatically.

If the thread is not mine, though I created it, who owns the OP?

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[FreeGrace]

Then you have to explain how it is that the Father will cut off (NIV), ie: separate from Christ, anyone who does not produce "fruit."

I already have. It's a misunderstanding to equate "cut off" with "separate from Christ". There's simply no justification for such a view. Since Scripture teaches that all who believe have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of "what is to come" which is the day of redemption. The basis for being redeemed on "that day" is our sealing with the Holy Spirit.

ONLY IF one can prove from Scripture that the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken and for what specific reason, will I ever believe that anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit won't be redeemed on "that day".

Those who are separated from Christ no longer have eternal life.

Without a specific and plainly clear verse to support this statement, it remains only an opinion without substance.

And Eph 2:10 says we were created "in Christ Jesus" to do good works which God prepared beforehand for us to "walk in them." (Continuously do as a mode of life)

And yet, there is nothing in v.10 to lead anyone to the conclusion that good works save anyone. In fact, v.8 and 9 completely REFUTE that notion.

The OSAS/NOWORKS folk consistently ignore that verse as if it were not an essential part of what Paul was telling the Ephesian believers.

Whoever teaches such nonsense is FAILING to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". But there is gross error to claim that good works are essential for one's salvation.

They ARE essential for the believer to be blessed and rewarded. Why isn't that accepted as biblical?

And, absolutely, no one will be saved by works. It is by God's grace and mercy because no one measures up to a lifetime of perfect holiness that would be required. So God bestows it as a gift.

We agree on this.

And no one who thinks they are saved will see eternal life without good works.

They by default, this means that one must have good works to be saved.

Just because God is gracious and salvation is a gift doesn't mean we don't have to be concerned to do our best to keep OUR LORD's commands.

iakov the fool

This demonstrates how much your view doesn't understand God's grace.

 

[FreeGrace]

violation of 1.3 and 2.14 reba

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I prefer to deal with the actual text of Galatians. Without getting into details, "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) would seem to be a reference to more of a dangerous stumble that will lead to death, than a loss of the "Spirit" (Galatians 5:2).

You made a statement about paying attention to context as a preface to our discussions. And we can see that the context of Galatians 5 is justification, not physical death, or rewards.
The effect of Christ that a Galatian fellow loses is justification in Christ.

"2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision (for justification), Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision (for justification), that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5: NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine)

It's easy to see from the context that the fall from grace and being severed from Christ (the vine) that is being spoken about for these saved Galatians ("Having begun by the Spirit"--Galatians 3:3 NASB) is the loss of justification.

That is what happens when you no longer trust Christ for justification. You no longer have that justification. Christ becomes of no effect for you in that regard (vs.2 above). No justification means you no longer being saved. A loss of faith in Christ means you no longer have his continuing sacrifice and ministry in heaven to justify you before the Father and keep you blameless and clean of your sins.

 

[JLB]

I already have. It's a misunderstanding to equate "cut off" with "separate from Christ". There's simply no justification for such a view. Since Scripture teaches that all who believe have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of "what is to come" which is the day of redemption. The basis for being redeemed on "that day" is our sealing with the Holy Spirit.

ONLY IF one can prove from Scripture that the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken and for what specific reason, will I ever believe that anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit won't be redeemed on "that day".


Without a specific and plainly clear verse to support this statement, it remains only an opinion without substance.


And yet, there is nothing in v.10 to lead anyone to the conclusion that good works save anyone. In fact, v.8 and 9 completely REFUTE that notion.


Whoever teaches such nonsense is FAILING to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". But there is gross error to claim that good works are essential for one's salvation.

They ARE essential for the believer to be blessed and rewarded. Why isn't that accepted as biblical?


We agree on this.


They by default, this means that one must have good works to be saved.


This demonstrates how much your view doesn't understand God's grace.

Just more of your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Just more of your opinion.

I provided 3 specific verses to support my views and where is ANY explanation of yours that shows the 3 verses don't support my view?

That's how debate works. Provide evidence for your view. My views have been disagreed with, but not refuted.

 

[JLB]

I provided 3 specific verses to support my views and where is ANY explanation of yours that shows the 3 verses don't support my view?

That's how debate works. Provide evidence for your view. My views have been disagreed with, but not refuted.

That's just it, they are your views.

Please point out the scripture you posted below -

I already have. It's a misunderstanding to equate "cut off" with "separate from Christ". There's simply no justification for such a view. Since Scripture teaches that all who believe have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is a guarantee of "what is to come" which is the day of redemption. The basis for being redeemed on "that day" is our sealing with the Holy Spirit.

ONLY IF one can prove from Scripture that the specific sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken and for what specific reason, will I ever believe that anyone who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit won't be redeemed on "that day".


Without a specific and plainly clear verse to support this statement, it remains only an opinion without substance.


And yet, there is nothing in v.10 to lead anyone to the conclusion that good works save anyone. In fact, v.8 and 9 completely REFUTE that notion.


Whoever teaches such nonsense is FAILING to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". But there is gross error to claim that good works are essential for one's salvation.

They ARE essential for the believer to be blessed and rewarded. Why isn't that accepted as biblical?


We agree on this.


They by default, this means that one must have good works to be saved.


This demonstrates how much your view doesn't understand God's grace.

No scripture.




JLB

 

[JLB]

I provided 3 specific verses to support my views and where is ANY explanation of yours that shows the 3 verses don't support my view?

That's how debate works. Provide evidence for your view. My views have been disagreed with, but not refuted.

Do you have faith in Christ Jesus?

If so, then you indeed have the "hope" of salvation, which you will receive at the end or consummation of your faith.


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

Peter is using the language of faith, to encourage those who he is writing to, to continue to the end, even under persecution.

The end result of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ is receiving the salvation you are hoping for.

Faith is the intangible substance of the "unseen" reality of salvation we are all hoping for.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

If you depart from the faith, and turn away from Christ, who is our salvation, then how can a person still hope to receive the salvation that only comes to those who believe, and have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation?


JLB

 

[chessman]

That is what happens when you no longer trust Christ for justification.

So Jews who have been subjecting themselves to all the Jewish justification practices/law but then become Christians (are converted, have faith in Jesus Christ (Messiah) as their Lord and stop doing all the Jewish justification practices/laws) but then later on, for whatever reason (social pressures), decide to pick back up some (one is mentioned in context) of those practices (like teaching circumcision is necessary) are de-saved??? Even if they still have faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, yet teach others that circumcision is necessary, that de-saves them on your view???

Hmm, reading Galatians, I'm pretty sure that to those who have faith in Jesus Christ, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (except a yoke to slavery).

Galatians 5:1-2, 6 (NASB) It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
...
Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. ​

Your view of this passage teaching de-salvation (which can only be assumed from the phrase "fallen from grace") makes no sense. That is, unless you just assume "fallen from grace" means 'fallen from salvation'.

Nor does it make sense of the very real (yet anachronistic) situation where a perfectly good 1st Century Christian Jew living in Galatia finds himself. He loves Christ with all his heart yet he is facing death, persecution and at a minimum ostracized from other family because of his conversion.

Let's say he has a son. Hmm, do I circumcise him or not???

On your view, if he does, umm sorry you are de-saved.

On Paul's teaching here, if he does, he's "fallen from grace" back into the yoke of the circumcision law. But either way, circumcision is not going to snatch him from Jesus' hand because it means nothing.

 

[JLB]

So Jews who have been subjecting themselves to all the Jewish justification practices/law but then become Christians (are converted, have faith in Jesus Christ (Messiah) as their Lord and stop doing all the Jewish justification practices/laws) but then later on, for whatever reason (social pressures), decide to pick back up some (one is mentioned in context) of those practices (like teaching circumcision is necessary) are de-saved??? Even if they still have faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, yet teach others that circumcision is necessary, that de-saves them on your view???

You try to down play what was actually happening. Why?

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9



JLB

 

[chessman]

You try to down play what was actually happening. Why?

I'm not downplaying anything. [edit] Anti-OSAS understanding(s) is over-playing what his point was by "fallen from grace". Over-playing it into 'fallen from salvation'.

The good news, (for a Jew), includes the fact that they are no longer under the yoke of the law (like circumcision, for example). It's one of the law's examples Paul used to prove his point throughout the letter. A point I agree with.

Galatians 5:2-3 (ESV) Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.​

If a Jewish Christian continues to be yoked by the law of circumcision, for example, he's not understanding Paul's previous testimony. He's being foolish. But un-saved??? No. Never does Paul say or even imply that. In fact, he specifically says circumcision means nothing. One of the advantages of being in Christ is no-longer having the yoke of circumcision. That's a part of the good news. Anybody that teaches otherwise, teaches something different.

Paul makes the same point using the Jewish festivals (versus circumcision) for another example, even referred to them as weak and elementary:

Galatians 4:8-11 (ESV) Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. ​

His point in the letter was that these Jewish traditions were a yoke to slavery, and that Christ brings freedom, peace and grace instead of these things.

Galatians 1:3-7 (ESV) Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.​

He writes to them about Christ's peace/freedom yet also calls them foolish (yet never un-saved) for continuing Jewish law/traditions like circumcision and festivals;

Galatians 3:1-3 (ESV) O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?​

Galatians 3:11-13 (ESV) Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So Jews who have been subjecting themselves to all the Jewish justification practices/law but then become Christians (are converted, have faith in Jesus Christ (Messiah) as their Lord and stop doing all the Jewish justification practices/laws) but then later on, for whatever reason (social pressures), decide to pick back up some (one is mentioned in context) of those practices (like teaching circumcision is necessary) are de-saved??? Even if they still have faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, yet teach others that circumcision is necessary, that de-saves them on your view???

No, that is not my view.
The only circumstance under which observing the rites of the old covenant condemn a person is when they do it for the purpose of justification:

"4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4 NASB bold mine)


.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you have faith in Christ Jesus?

This has already been asked and answered. Why the trolling?

If so, then you indeed have the "hope" of salvation, which you will receive at the end or consummation of your faith.

The "end of faith" hasn't yet been shown by anyone to mean "end of your life". Jesus was clear in John 5:24 that when one believes, they HAVE (in the present tense) eternal life. Not your definition of some future hope. Believers have it now. And it is irrevocable because God's gifts are irrevocable, from Rom 6:23 and 11:29.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

Peter is using the language of faith, to encourage those who he is writing to, to continue to the end, even under persecution.

I'm still waiting for evidence that "end of faith" means "end of your life".

If you depart from the faith, and turn away from Christ, who is our salvation, then how can a person still hope to receive the salvation that only comes to those who believe, and have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation?
JLB

Since the gift of eternal life is from God, and God's gifts are irrevocable, eternal life is just that: irrevocable.

No one has shown otherwise.

 

[Kidron]

My Uncle ... lived as a Christian in his youngerdays Any one here would have thought him so.. He died cursing God . and lived what we would term a sinful life in his older years... was he saved ?
by sinful: sleeping with different women , drunk, stealing ,cussing ,

Yes, IF he was saved., if he was born again, then he's with Jesus.
I know its difficult for you to believe that God's atonement is not based on our lifestyle after we are saved.
However, thats how it works.
You cant out-sin the Blood's ability to forgive..

The best and easiest way to understand it is like this..
Every sin YOU will ever commit, .....has ALREADY been paid for....by Jesus's sacrifice.
So, His Death is the full payment for "sin"......all of them....and not just the ones you forgot to confess.
And not just the ones you did before you were saved.
Grace, is always greater then your sin.
Sin can never undo what God's Grace has accomplished on the Cross.

Now, here is the interesting thing.
What will be more surprising in heaven, wont be the fact that some of the worst "sinners" are there, but rather its the fact that some of the best tongue talking, never miss a church service, fakirs, wont be there.

 

[Kidron]

Since the gift of eternal life is from God, and God's gifts are irrevocable, eternal life is just that: irrevocable.

No one has shown otherwise.

They cant show otherwise without yanking verses out of context.
The fact is, Salvation is an eternal accomplish on behalf of a born again person.
It cant be lost, remitted, or withdrawn.
You cant fall out of Christ, and Christ will never be taken out of you.
Salvation, as its applied to a believer, will last as long as God lives, as HE is the ONE who is supplying it.
ITs a done deal.
Its a sure thing.
"It is FINISHED".
There is no going back.

 

[reba]

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


What is your understanding the context of the above passage?

 

[chessman]

The only circumstance under which observing the rites of the old covenant condemn a person is when they do it for the purpose of justification:

Fair enough.

Then it is (or should be) a passage that's not applicable to the circumstances of today, whereby (hypothetically speaking) an ex-believer turns to atheism from Christianity.

But back to Galatia, for clarification of your view, what do you think;

Just take Titus, for example.

Galatians 2:3 (ESV) But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.​

Same ole Titus in every way and faith. If he was somehow fooled into adding circumcision to his faith in Christ. De-saved or simply foolish?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then it is (or should be) a passage that's not applicable to the circumstances of today, whereby (hypothetically speaking) an ex-believer turns to atheism from Christianity.

The point is, whatever the reason, the 'believer' is turning away from justification in Christ. Christ is of no effect in regard to justification to the person--any person--who does that.

 

[chessman]

The point is, whatever the reason, the 'believer' is turning away from justification in Christ. Christ is of no effect in regard to justification to the person--any person--who does that.

It may be your point. But the problem is, that was not Paul's point. Nor what he said.

You didn't answer my question.

If Titus got circumcised, Would that de-save him?

 

[Kidron]

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


What is your understanding the context of the above passage?

First of all.
why do some christians feel the need to try to find verses that they want to use to try to damn other christians to hell?
why are some like this?
did you ever ask yourself that?
What is their personal motivation to try to inflict this type of harm unto other believers?

Alright about your verses......You can apply, to a degree, 21:3-7, to a believer.
Keep in mind that when you want to understand the principles of Grace, and Salvation, and Justification by faith..... you dont use the books of revelation or hebrews as your study guide, as they are not given for this purpose.
And, Paul tells you to rightly divide the word of God, and specifically the NEW TESTAMENT.
So, this means that its very possible to "wrongly divide it"....right?
The way that most people wrongly divide the word is to try to undo Grace and substitute works, regarding the free gift of Salvation.
That is the #1 main issue with most who are stuck in a "works for salvation" theological mess.

OK, beginning with vs 21:8, you have to rightly divide and not apply the understanding of "overcome" (vs:7), as good works that will save you if you do them, or cause you to burn in eternity if you dont.
So, i would not teach my students that "overcome" in Rev 21:7 means, "self effort to be saved or to stay saved", as it does not mean this at all.
I would teach them that all overcoming is based on Christ doing it through you....that its all OF GRACE that overcomes.
For example...
1 John 5:4, ...."everyone born of God (born again) overcomes the world".
And this means it HAS happened already.......and not that you do it later.......So, this is Grace-Faith doing the overcoming, based on being born again as the REASON.
Remember that Jesus said he has overcome the world.... in John 16:33?
And this means we have also because "Christ in you, the hope of Glory"....... We have overcome because we are 'in Christ", who has overcome.......so, this would be our status also.
"As JESUS IS.., so are we in THE WORLD"......... remember???
I would refer them and you dear reader to the verse that explains that you overcome the devil by faith and the world of their testimony.
Look at 1st John 5:4 again....."HAS (already) overcome the world...our FAITH". = All Believer's status.

So, its already accomplished.....we the believers have overcome the world......by "our FAITH".
Therefore, those who have not overcome, that Revelation is speaking about in 21:8..., would be the lost, the unbelievers, as they have no "FAITH" that has been accepted by God so that He can accept them.

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