One result of being in union with Christ

[chessman]

Colossians 1:21-23 (LEB) And although you were formerly alienated and enemies in attitude, because of your evil deeds, but now you have been reconciled by his physical body through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you remain in the faith, established and steadfast and not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. ​

We are reconciled NOW.
We are reconciled now through HIS death (not our sinlessness).

His theoretical un-death could theoretically un-reconcile us.

We will be presented Holy and blameless IF we remain steadfast in the hope that it is His death that HAS reconciled us.

Those that hope in something other than His death (such as their own ability to save themselves) are not blameless. They are immature Christians and will be presented as such. It is unfortunate that not every Christian will be presented as mature. Some are immature, but reconciled by Christ's death, none the less.

Colossians 1:28

Now there's a reason to believe in eternal security IN Christ's death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Such a post only reveals a significant lack of comprehension of what grace even means.

You seem completely clueless to the Bible's warning to not make grace a license to sin.

"I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB bold mine)

As we will see by your response, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO MAKE GRACE INTO A LICENSE FOR SIN".
Just watch, folks.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Did you know hyper-grace/ free grace OSAS says you can go back to your unbelief and you are still saved?
Causing believers to stumble and become unbelievers and return to their old lives, thinking they are still safe with God, is not a light matter with God:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

Causing someone who believes in Christ (vs.6) to stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (vs.8) is a very, very serious matter with God.
Still think it's a pointless discussion?

Then the thread should be about hyper grace. Threads on eternal security (which is true) are counter productive.

We are eternally secure in Christ. But we aren't followers of Christ if we don't follow him. You either are a follower or you're not. If not, you're not saved. It's that simple.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Colossians 1:21-23 (LEB) And although you were formerly alienated and enemies in attitude, because of your evil deeds, but now you have been reconciled by his physical body through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you remain in the faith, established and steadfast and not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. ​

We are reconciled NOW.
We are reconciled now through HIS death (not our sinlessness).

His theoretical un-death could theoretically un-reconcile us.

We will be present Holy and blameless IF we remain steadfast in the hope that it is His death that HAS reconciled us.

Those that hope in something other than His death (such as their own ability to save themselves) are not blameless. They are immature Christians and will be presented as such. It is unfortunate that not every Christian will be presented as mature. Some are immature, but reconciled by Christ's death, none the less.

Colossians 1:28

Now there's a reason to believe in eternal security IN Christ's death.

Folks, look how hyper-grace doctrine redefines being blameless and mature.
Instead of it meaning being blameless and mature in how you act, for them it means believing they are saved despite living an unrighteous life.

Certain other people have made this same argument in other threads (I'm confident the mods won't let me name their names). They argue that the person who is righteous in actions is actually the blind, self-righteous, Christ denying, sinning person, while the one who lives an unrepentant lifestyle of sin, trusting that God is honoring their 'honesty' over and above how they live, is actually the righteous person before God and who has his approval.

Sooner or later, the real church is going to have to take an official stand against this damnable doctrine.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Folks, look how hyper-grace doctrine redefines being blameless and mature.
Instead of it meaning being blameless and mature in how you act, for them it means believing they are saved despite living an unrighteous life.

Certain other people have made this same argument in other threads (I'm confident the mods won't let me name their names). They argue that the person who is righteous in actions is actually the blind, self-righteous, Christ denying, sinning person, while the one who lives an unrepentant lifestyle of sin, trusting that God is honoring their 'honesty' over and above how they live, is actually the righteous person before God and who has his approval.

Sooner or later, the real church is going to have to take an official stand against this damnable doctrine.

that is not what he said and no one is blameless and mature in the flesh

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then the thread should be about hyper grace. Threads on eternal security (which is true) are counter productive.

We are eternally secure in Christ. But we aren't followers of Christ if we don't follow him. You either are a follower or you're not. If not, you're not saved. It's that simple.

Rational people know that.
The problem is, hyper-grace OSAS people have been slipping under the radar of traditional OSAS people simply because they hear 'OSAS' and don't bother to look at what hyper-grace OSAS is actually saying.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

that is not what he said and no one is blameless and mature in the flesh

That is what he's saying. Trust me.

Do you know what blameless means? It does not mean 'sinless'.
And what about all the talk about the mature believer right under our noses in the NT?

 

[Papa Zoom]

When presented to God as Holy and Blameless, it will not be because of me that I am such, but only because of Christ. I AM holy and blameless in Christ. Not because of any works. Works follow.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Rational people know that.
The problem is, hyper-grace OSAS people have been slipping under the radar of traditional OSAS people simply because they hear 'OSAS' and don't bother to look at what hyper-grace OSAS is actually saying.

Yes but these discussion always lead to legalism which is an appalling doctrine and a false one at that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's no coincidence that we find: "0 Bible results for “Stop believing.”

What a foolish, uninformed argument.

"13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB bold mine)

 

[chessman]

to stumble so as to go to the eternal fire (vs.8)

Notice how the passage doesn't actually equate stumbling with going to eternal fire.

If someone in Christ stumbling meant going to eternal fire, it's way to late to cut/pluck out body parts that caused someone to go to eternal fire. Not to mention internally contradictory with other passages:

Psalm 37:24 Though he fall, he will not be cast headlong, for Yahweh supports him with his hand.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When presented to God as Holy and Blameless, it will not be because of me that I am such, but only because of Christ. I AM holy and blameless in Christ. Not because of any works. Works follow.

Yep. That's a fact.
And true to typical Protestant thinking, all you can hear in the non-OSAS argument is 'works salvation', right?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Notice how the passage doesn't actually equate stumbling with going to eternal fire.

If someone in Christ stumbling meant going to eternal fire, it's way to late to cut/pluck out body parts that caused someone to go to eternal fire. Not to mention internally contradictory with other passages:

Psalm 37:24 Though he fall, he will not be cast headlong, for Yahweh supports him with his hand.

I get it. The passage is too plain for you to accept it for what it plainly says.
OSAS doctrine does that.......it blinds the eyes to the plain words of scripture.
That's how ear tickling doctrines work.
But I also know that this is by God's design so that the practicing hyper-grace Christ rejector can be condemned, not saved.

I'm curious, do you personally practice hyper-grace/ free doctrine that says you can go back to your old life of unbelief and sin and you are still saved?

And if not, are you afraid of the warnings in scripture that to lead people into such a life will cause you to be destroyed? (1 Corinthians 3:17, Matthew 18:6 NASB, 2 Peter 2:2 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes but these discussion always lead to legalism which is an appalling doctrine and a false one at that.

Not even remotely true. (I wonder, is living in unrepentant unbelief and sin somehow better????)

Continuing to believe in order to continue to be justified by Christ's sacrifice in heaven is not legalism anymore than it was when the believer first heard the gospel message of forgiveness of sin through Christ.

 

[Papa Zoom]

That is what he's saying. Trust me.

Do you know what blameless means? It does not mean 'sinless'.
And what about all the talk about the mature believer right under our noses in the NT?

It's all about the righteousness of Christ. I wear HIS clothing, not my own.

Works always follows from true belief. I say true belief to differentiate from mere belief. The demons believe for example. True belief is belief that follows after the object of one's faith. In this case, Jesus. To follow Jesus is to walk where He walks and do what He's done and to obey all that He's commanded
(Matthew 28:19-20New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”)

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

(I'm not talking about the TEN Commandments here)

All talk of works as a requirement leads to legalism. Avoid this kind of talk. Rather, talk of following Jesus. Encourage one another unto good works.
Hebrews 10:24-25English Standard Version (ESV)

24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Where there is talk of antinomianism, we simply go to Romans:
Romans 6:1-2, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”

Romans 12: I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind…

One simply cannot choose to life a life that isn't following Jesus and yet claim to be a follower. It's not even logical.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Not even remotely true. (I wonder, is living in unrepentant unbelief and sin somehow better????)

Continuing to believe in order to continue to be justified by Christ's sacrifice in heaven is not legalism anymore than it was when the believer first heard the gospel message of forgiveness of sin through Christ.

since I've seen it happen it must be true in some cases

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's all about the righteousness of Christ. I wear HIS clothing, not my own.

We all know this.
But hyper-grace OSAS says because we do wear HIS clothing (his righteousness) that makes it so we can live in our lives of unbelief and sin and we will still be saved. Go ahead, ask 'em.

Works always follows from true belief.

Hyper-grace says that is not true, and worse, that it doesn't matter if you don't have works following. You are still saved even though you choose to not trust in Christ's forgiveness any longer as evident by a return to a life of sin.

I say true belief to differentiate from mere belief. The demons believe for example. True belief is belief that follows after the object of one's faith. In this case, Jesus. To follow Jesus is to walk where He walks and do what He's done and to obey all that He's commanded

Okay, good. You do not believe hyper-grace doctrine.
Let's contend for the faith together and send these hyper-grace/ free grace doctrines packing!
Read the following passage carefully and deliberately:

"3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:3-4 NASB)

Hyper grace doctrine says grace IS a license to turn to willful sin and unbelief in a denial of Christ. They say grace is what God gives so one can stay in unrepentant sin and unbelief. While the Bible says grace was given us so we can say 'no' to ungodliness (Titus 2:11-12 NASB). Do you think I'm kidding when I say that's what they believe and teach others?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One simply cannot choose to life a life that isn't following Jesus and yet claim to be a follower. It's not even logical.

Amen, bro.
But hyper-grace is teaching that you are in Christ even if you deny Christ and, as a result, do not follow him in obedience to his commands.

 

[FreeGrace]

Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

In order to properly understand the verse, one must know the "if" condition. iow, v.22 is the result IF v.23 is fulfilled.

So, here are the 2 verses together:
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So, the result is "IF you continue in your faith" from v.23.

But, what is the condition? v.22 says that God "has reconciled you" through the death of Christ, "to present you holy in His sight, without blemish and free from accusation."

Therefore the 2 verses are saying that ONLY IF one continues in their faith will God be able to "present you holy, without blemish and free from accusation".

iow, those believers who do NOT continue in the faith will NOT be presented by God as holy, without blemish and blameless.

This verse does NOT say anything about having to continue in the faith in order to continue to be saved.

So, where is that verse?

 

[FreeGrace]

Mat_5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Joh_10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

A few of the reasons i do not take a side in this circle battle

Wouldn't it be reasonable to think that God DID 'take sides'? Isn't the plan of salvation totally His plan in the first place?

Yes, therefore, it is more than helpful to know what His Word reveals about His plan. Simple as that.

Further, the Bible doesn't present both sides. Only one side. The truth. And Paul encourages the believer to be diligent (through study) to present him/her self to be an approved workman, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Tim 2:15. Otherwise, they will be ashamed. (for their lack of study)