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Only ONE TRUE GOD.

jgredline said:
Mutz
Who is you God?
What is his or her name?
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My heavenly Father is my God.

I just call him Father and he seems to like that.

Kind of like my relationship with my kids I suppose. One of them calls me "daddy", and the others call me "dad". So it matters not how they address me - they are all my children and when they speak to me, I answer accordingly. Sometimes my kids even brag about me to their friends. In fact it's a lot like my relationship with my heavely Father!
 
mutzrein said:
Scorpia - are we still waiting for you to post more?
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Unless you ask specifics this time, then and there that I will post as needed.
 
Is that right JG? That's interesting. My God was telling me the other day that His son, Jesus, is seated beside him in His kingdom and that I am also seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Not only that but my God has made me an heir, with his son, of His kingdom.

Oh, and He also said that it was He who exalted his son, Jesus, and gave him the name which is above every name.
 
mutzrein said:
Is that right JG? That's interesting. My God was telling me the other day that His son, Jesus, is seated beside him in His kingdom and that I am also seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Not only that but my God has made me an heir, with his son, of His kingdom.

Oh, and He also said that it was He who exalted his son, Jesus, and gave him the name which is above every name.
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:)
 
and jg, for you to make such statements seems as if it is 'you' who deny that Christ 'came in the flesh'. For we KNOW that Christ Jesus IS the ONLY begotten of God. That Jesus Christ IS The Son of God and that EVERYTHING that He is and has was GIVEN Him by The Father.

See, this is where 'trinity' becomes contraversial. It 'seems' to deny that Christ is The Son of God and makes Him God Himself. Regardless of what has been offered through the mouth of Christ Himself, 'trinity' seems to negate that and insert instead, 'man's' understanding over Christ's.

God IS The Father and Christ IS God's Son. To take it beyond this is to 'assume' that which has NOT been plainly offered.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
and jg, for you to make such statements seems as if it is 'you' who deny that Christ 'came in the flesh'. For we KNOW that Christ Jesus IS the ONLY begotten of God. That Jesus Christ IS The Son of God and that EVERYTHING that He is and has was GIVEN Him by The Father.

See, this is where 'trinity' becomes contraversial. It 'seems' to deny that Christ is The Son of God and makes Him God Himself. Regardless of what has been offered through the mouth of Christ Himself, 'trinity' seems to negate that and insert instead, 'man's' understanding over Christ's.

God IS The Father and Christ IS God's Son. To take it beyond this is to 'assume' that which has NOT been plainly offered.

MEC
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Mec

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus is also God
Jesus became flesh john1:1
Jesus is the second person of the Godhead.
''This is foolish to the natural man''

Mec and mutz
You guys ignore passages like this and I am paraphrasing, but will be happy to look up the passages for you guys although you guys are faniliar with them, but Pride is keeping you guys from coming to a ''saving'' grace and knowledge that is Christ Jesus... God incarnite...


''If you have seen me, you have seen the Father''
'' my Lord and my God''
'' To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ''
''I am the alpha and the omega''

So again if Jesus is not God then explain this to me.....

Why was the early and present day church so concerned about the doctrine of the Trinity?

Is it really essential to hold to the full deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit? Yes it is, for this teaching has implications for the very heart of the Christian faith.

First, the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, and not fully God, then it is hard to see how he, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature, no matter how great, really save us?

Second, justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son. (This is seen today in the teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not believe in justification by faith alone.) If Jesus is not fully God, we would rightly doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely. Could we really depend on any creature fully for our salvation?

Third, if Jesus is not infinite God, should we pray to him or worship him? Who but an infinite, omniscient God could hear and respond to all the prayers of all God’s people? And who but God himself is worthy of worship? Indeed, if Jesus is merely a creature, no matter how great, it would be idolatry to worship himâ€â€yet the New Testament commands us to do so (Phil. 2:9–11; Rev. 5:12–14).

Fourth, if someone teaches that Christ was a created being but nonetheless one who saved us, then this teaching wrongly begins to attribute credit for salvation to a creature and not to God himself. But this wrongfully exalts the creature rather than the Creator, something Scripture never allows us to do.

Fifth, the independence and personal nature of God are at stake: If there is no Trinity, then there were no interpersonal relationships within the being of God before creation, and, without personal relationships, it is difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal or be without the need for a creation to relate to.

Sixth, the unity of the universe is at stake: If there is not perfect plurality and perfect unity in God himself, then we have no basis for thinking there can be any ultimate unity among the diverse elements of the universe either. Clearly, in the doctrine of the Trinity, the heart of the Christian faith is at stake. ''
 
read hebrews, I seem to remember God (the father) refering to Jesus as God.
 
J, throughout the quote of your offering, my responses will be in bold.

jgredline said:
Mec

Jesus is the Son of God
Jesus is also God
Jesus became flesh john1:1
Jesus is the second person of the Godhead.
''This is foolish to the natural man''

Mec and mutz
You guys ignore passages like this and I am paraphrasing, but will be happy to look up the passages for you guys although you guys are faniliar with them, but Pride is keeping you guys from coming to a ''saving'' grace and knowledge that is Christ Jesus... God incarnite...


''If you have seen me, you have seen the Father''
'' my Lord and my God''
'' To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ''
''I am the alpha and the omega''

So again if Jesus is not God then explain this to me.....

Why was the early and present day church so concerned about the doctrine of the Trinity?

ONLY HALF of the early church was FOR a 'trinity'. That was EXACTLY what the council of Nicea was concerned with.

Most of the present day denominations are nothing more than off-shoots of the Catholic Church.

Now, the important issue and a valid question which you asked. Here's the answer. I have offered it over and over again but here it is again.

The Romans of influence at the time Christianity was introduced were MOSTLY followers of Mithra. Mithra was considered a 'three part' god. It then becomes quite obvious that they would have been accustomed to and familiar with a 'trinity'. Not surprising then that when Christianity was introduced, Father, Son and Holy Spirit had the 'same' conotation and therefore seen as 'existing' in the same respect as what they were 'use to'.

There WERE many and HAVE BEEN MANY from that time and since that have refused to accept this 'man-made' doctrine.

Now, I ask YOU a question. WHY would the RCC find this doctrine of 'their OWN creation' SO important that they would torture and MURDER those that refused to accept it? IN THE NAME OF CHRIST, no doubt. If these that perpetrated such treatment upon their flock were TRULY inspired, PLEASE explain to me HOW they were able to justify such treatment of their brothers and sisters in Christ.

Is it really essential to hold to the full deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit? Yes it is, for this teaching has implications for the very heart of the Christian faith.

First, the atonement is at stake. If Jesus is merely a created being, and not fully God, then it is hard to see how he, a creature, could bear the full wrath of God against all of our sins. Could any creature, no matter how great, really save us?

And see, it is YOU that insist that God be contained within a 'box' of YOUR understanding. God is capable of doing as He PLEASES. NOT as we please. We have NO control over God whatsoever. Yet this is EXACTLY what you have offered in your statement above. That God MUST react as 'you see fit'. Vanity, my friend and nothing more.

Second, justification by faith alone is threatened if we deny the full deity of the Son. (This is seen today in the teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not believe in justification by faith alone.) If Jesus is not fully God, we would rightly doubt whether we can really trust him to save us completely. Could we really depend on any creature fully for our salvation?

I depend upon GOD and the sacrifice that HE OFFERED, His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, Jesus Christ. I do NOT worship Christ AS God for the simple reason that HE GAVE US HIMSELF. He stated on NUMEROUS occasions that what He offered WAS NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER. That He was/IS The Son of God. And we KNOW that the Father IS God.

Third, if Jesus is not infinite God, should we pray to him or worship him? Who but an infinite, omniscient God could hear and respond to all the prayers of all God’s people? And who but God himself is worthy of worship? Indeed, if Jesus is merely a creature, no matter how great, it would be idolatry to worship himâ€â€yet the New Testament commands us to do so (Phil. 2:9–11; Rev. 5:12–14).

Christ IS worthy of worship in that He IS the Son of God. It is those that accept this 'trinity' that INSIST that He is to be worshiped AS God. I do not. I worship Christ as the Son of God and thank Him daily for what He has offered. I pray to God in the NAME of Jesus Christ for this is what we have been instructed to do. But I DO NOT place Christ in an EQUAL position of God. He IS God's Son and there is ONLY ONE GOD.

Fourth, if someone teaches that Christ was a created being but nonetheless one who saved us, then this teaching wrongly begins to attribute credit for salvation to a creature and not to God himself. But this wrongfully exalts the creature rather than the Creator, something Scripture never allows us to do.

WRONG. Christ simply obeyed the will of the Father. The sacrifice was designed BY GOD. Christ simply followed the will of the Father. Not only in His submitting to sacrifice, but His ministry itself was designed BY GOD. His power was given Him BY GOD. And even the words that He offered were given Him BY GOD.

Oh, and you raise a really important point. We were warned that there would come a time that those that 'claimed' to follow the will of the Father would begin to worship the creation MORE than the Creator Himself. So, in your own words you offer that for Christ to be created then to worship Him AS God would be to worship the creation MORE than the Creator. So, you are right in that scripture does NOT allow us to worship the creation in the same way that we worship the Creator. It expressly offers that those that would live in darkness would do such and to their own folly.

Fifth, the independence and personal nature of God are at stake: If there is no Trinity, then there were no interpersonal relationships within the being of God before creation, and, without personal relationships, it is difficult to see how God could be genuinely personal or be without the need for a creation to relate to.

Christ WAS the Son of God PREVIOUS to His taking on flesh. The exact WHEN of Christ becoming the Son is not something that we have been offered at this point. But the simply nature of the words Father and Son show order, do they not?


Sixth, the unity of the universe is at stake: If there is not perfect plurality and perfect unity in God himself, then we have no basis for thinking there can be any ultimate unity among the diverse elements of the universe either. Clearly, in the doctrine of the Trinity, the heart of the Christian faith is at stake. ''
[/b]
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Only the heart of the Christian faith as you have learned to accept it. I, on the other hand, NEED no complete answer to the things that you seem to. I rely upon The Spirit to guide me and through FAITH accept what has been offered and have NO need to know 'more' than what is offered. I accept it AS it is offered and move on from there. If I have questions I ask. If I receive the answer then I accept it. Otherwise I consider the question to be something that I may not NEED the answer to. And J, I have found that there seems to be MUCH that I have received that the average 'chruch goer' that I have encountered seem to be ALMOST COMPLETELY OBLIVIOUS TO. This leads me to believe that they are little concerned with ANYTHING other than what they have been 'taught' to believe. And not by The Sprit, but by their 'teachers' in the flesh.

And J, please understand that I have learned what I have learned as it has been revealed to me. I have NOT been led by 'men' to my understanding. Prayer, study, prayer and study. And it was NOT of MY CHOOSING that I have come to follow this path. If left to my own desires, I would have NEVER accepted Christ into my heart and begun my study of The Word of God. i would be the same 'lost soul' that I was for the first thirty five years of my life. Living for nothing other than MYSELF and the pleasure that I could derive from this world. Talk about miracles. You see before you one of such a degree that I marvel daily and sometimes by the moment at such a wonderous and powerful God that He could take someone like me and offer SO MUCH when, at one time, I MUST have been one of His GREATEST ENEMIES. What a worderous God indeed.

MEC
 
mutzrein said:
Sorry Scorpia - I just thought you had more translation to do. Is this not the case?
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Yes it is but I am not sure if I will post them afterwards, who needs them anyway?
 
Imagican,

you say it is us who believe in the trinity that have forced God into a box so that we can understand Him, your arguements suggest to me it is the other way around.

Have you decided to reject the verses that say Jesus is God because you can't accept it was God on the cross taking the punishment for your sins? It is easier to think it was His only Son and not God himself?

As the trinity is something man can never fully understand, maybe it is us open to the spirit, and you have confined God into something you can understand, that God is not three in one.

You argue that the words Father and Son imply God the father being first, this is a restriction of language. The word Begotten solves this problem.

What about Hebrews 1:
8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy

This is God referring to Jesus as God, how can you ignore that, just cause it doesn't make complete sense to you?
 
Imagican said:
Oh, and J, was Mary the 'mother of God'?

MEC
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Isn't God the Father of Mary?
1bluewinky.gif
 
Mec and Mutz. I see you are still pagans.
Since words don't work, perhaps a diagram will

theholytrinityel7.gif
 
Nice Pic Oscar, But I am sure they have seen it before and in all likely hood call it a 3 or 9 headed monster.

Until that Third part that you show in the diagram is in them, they will not see it. Sad but true. :crying: :sad
 
oscar3 said:
Mec and Mutz. I see you are still pagans.
Since words don't work, perhaps a diagram will
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Now THAT IS INTERESTING. I have seen it before of course but have never thought of it like that. What are the predominant features of many pagan symbols? Triangle and Circle. Goodness that does look like a pagan symbol doesn't it :-?
 
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