Imagican said:
fran,
You have made this claim 'before' and it's NOT TRUE. You indicate that because you can 'come up' with statements that "INDICATE" 'trinity' that it existed shortly after Christ's death. NOT TRUE. Of course it existed 'before' the council of Nicea. But NOT UNTIL this was it OFFICIALLY indoctrinated into Catholocism. So your attempts to offer something 'different' than The Truth is moot. Nice 'try' though.
What on earth are you babbling about? I don't have to make up anything. Any sane person can read the writings themselves and determine that the Church Fathers believed in a Trinity that makes up the Godhead - despite your desperate pleas to the contrary. For those who are open minded, here are some examples of the concept of Trinity before it was actually defined vs. Arius:
Athenagoras
For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit because the Son is intelligence, reason, wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it (A Plea for the Christians, 2:18 [A.D. 177]).
Irenaeus
For the Son, who is the Word of God, arranged these things beforehand from the beginning, the Father being in no want of angels, in order that He might call the creation into being, and form man, for whom also the creation was made; nor, again, standing in need of any instrumentality for the framing of created things, or for the ordering of those things which had reference to man; while, [at the same time,] He has a vast and unspeakable number of servants. For His offspring and His similitude do minister to Him in every respect; that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject (Against Heresies 4:7:4 [A.D. 180-190]).
Theophilus of Antioch
The three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom (To Autolycus 2:18 [A.D. 181]).
Clement of Alexandria
And the address in the Timœus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus: ‘Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works.’ So that when he says, ‘Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,’ I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father (The Stromata 5:14 [A.D. 202]).
Hippolytus
A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine (Against the Heresy of One Noetus 8 [A.D. 200-210]).
Tertullian
…All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Against Praxeus 2 [A.D. 213]).
…all the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in (the Persons of) the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith…. (Against Praxeus 11[A.D. 213]).
Origen
…the divine benefits [are] bestowed upon us by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Trinity is the fountain of all holiness…. (On First Principles 1:4:2 [A.D. 220-230]).
And under this rule must be brought also the understanding of the sacred Scripture, in order that its statements may be judged not according to the worthlessness of the letter, but according to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, by whose inspiration they were caused to be written (On First Principles 4:27 [A.D. 220-230]).
Now this expression which we employ – ‘that there never was a time when He did not exist’ – is to be understood with an allowance. For these very words ‘when’ or ‘never’ have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages (On First Principles 4:28 [A.D. 220-230]).
Gregory Thaumaturgus
There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides forever (Declaration of Faith [circa A.D. 250]).
These quotes were taken from:
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_the_trinity.htm
As any unbiased person can read for himself, Imagican, your history is woefully inaccurate. These and many more writings show you wrong - and that the Council of Nicea merely REAFFIRMED what the Church had ALREADY been teaching from the beginning...
Imagican said:
Where did this word 'trinity' COME FROM? WHO coined it concerning Chirstianity? And WHERE did the 'idea' of this 'word' come from?
See Theophilus of Antioch above. Writen over a century before Constantine was emperor... Do some more reading from the sources, not some anti-Catholic rag.
Imagican said:
If you are unable to offer a 'reasonable' answer to these questions, then I propose that it is YOU who are 'confused' about the history of it.
It is quite obvious you have no clue about Church history, as we have already ascertained before. I expect to see a full retraction on your demonic blasphemy regarding the Most Blessed Trinity...
Regards
: