Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[Imagican]

Solo,

If you will read on to the next chapter you will PLAINLY see where 'my' answer is derived from.

Revelation 5

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he, (Jesus Christ), came and took the book out of the right hand of him, (God), that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.


Now, you tell me. IS NOT 'The Lamb' Jesus Christ? And, when you finally come to this realization, you will PLAINLY see that the Lamb is NOT God. 'Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Does this not offer that Christ was slain and through His death was our redemption bought, allowing us too to become the sons of God?

This scripture plainly explains that in the hand of God was seen a book that NO ONE was worthy to open, EXCEPT Jesus Christ, (the Lamb of God).

MEC

 

[WyldCyde]

One need not minimize or discount thomas's words.
The burden of proof is on those that claim jesus IS God, not on those that claim he is other than that since 'jesus IS God' is a derived extra biblical statement.
The term GOD has many forms that arent carried across from greek into our english bibles very well. Articles are often dropped or inserted when greek is translated. so we get 'a god' instead of 'god' and 'god' instead of 'the god'.
God can refer to nature & identity/person. For example in the beginning was the word and the word was with God (person/identity) and the word was god (nature).
To me the exact meaning of what thomas said isnt clear taken in isolation so its not a proof text like others have said.
He could have been identifying jesus as the person God or he could have been referring to jesus' status or he could have been merely expressing himself. Like we comonly say 'my god'...
From past studies of the greek i lean towards his meaning being that he is recognizing what jesus is as opposed to who he is. Jesus' function is lord (master) and god (ruler) as opposed to jesus IS God (the person/father).

So even though i dont agree with 'jesus is God)... i do agree with exclaiming 'my lord and my god' in the presence of jesus. he deserves nothing less.

wyld

 

[Imagican]

One need not minimize or discount thomas's words.
The burden of proof is on those that claim jesus IS God, not on those that claim he is other than that since 'jesus IS God' is a derived extra biblical statement.
The term GOD has many forms that arent carried across from greek into our english bibles very well. Articles are often dropped or inserted when greek is translated. so we get 'a god' instead of 'god' and 'god' instead of 'the god'.
God can refer to nature & identity/person. For example in the beginning was the word and the word was with God (person/identity) and the word was god (nature).
To me the exact meaning of what thomas said isnt clear taken in isolation so its not a proof text like others have said.
He could have been identifying jesus as the person God or he could have been referring to jesus' status or he could have been merely expressing himself. Like we comonly say 'my god'...
From past studies of the greek i lean towards his meaning being that he is recognizing what jesus is as opposed to who he is. Jesus' function is lord (master) and god (ruler) as opposed to jesus IS God (the person/father).

So even though i dont agree with 'jesus is God)... i do agree with exclaiming 'my lord and my god' in the presence of jesus. he deserves nothing less.

wyld

Interesting statements. Not that I wholy agree or disagree with what you have offered. Yet, Thomas WAS the ONLY apostle that EVER refered to Christ as 'MY GOD'. And we know through scripture the 'doubting nature' of Thomas.

I DO whole-heartedly agree with your explanation of the dangers of accepting interpretation 100 percent LITERAL. For we also KNOW that there WERE changes made when the original lanuages were translated into English. Anyone that has ANY understanding of translation KNOWS that there are certain things that are UNABLE to be COMPLETELY accurately translated from one language to another. And QUITE OFTEN, the understanding of the individual is what distinguishes the 'idea' or particular translation. This can attribute to MANY possible errors in translation.

But, what we DO HAVE in The Word is 'WHO' Christ STATED He was/is. That is without dispute. What others have come along and created does NOT necesarily bare ANY sort of 'reality' when it comes to the TRUTH. For man's heart is RARELY in 'tune' with God to the point that decisions of understanding can be taken as a 'WHOLE'. I have yet to meet the man or men that are NOT affected by the world around them. And this being the case, they are liable to make MANY mistakes in discernment of scripture, depending upon MANY factors.

Someone, (other than the apostles), introduced this 'Jesus IS God' theology. Whether they were TRULY inspired by God or just allowing their own feeble understanding to pervade the 'previous' understanding is something that the 'individual' is forced to decided when it comes to acceptance or denial. But there is LITTLE evidence used to 'back up' this 'trinity' concept. MUCH MORE evidence disputing this view. Then one would ask, "How is it that the MAJORITY of 'Christianity' accepts this 'trinity' if there is NO pertinent evidence of it's existence?" The answer is simple. The CC, (creators of this doctrine), used some pretty fierce tactics to LITERALLY FORCE their subjects into acceptance of 'whatever' they chose to enforce upon them.

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Imagician,
Hope all is well. I did have to chuckle to myself a bit though and couldn’t resist sharing lol. :D

Jesus IS The ONLY Begotten of God. God IS The Father of Christ. These two statements are without doubt or compromise.

Must have been a Freudian slip eh? Lol :wink:

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Same thing anyway huh? lol :angel:

Blessing Brother and take care.

 

[stovebolts]

Oh my, it wasn't a slip was it MEC? You were thinking of this huh?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Seems we have a contradiction then don't we? :wink:

Peace friend.

Jeff

 

[lovely]

Mec and mutz,

Hi, I sometimes wonder how you both view Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." And, what do you believe about Chris't's lineage that qualifies Him as our priest, though He is not from the tribe of Levi? Is Christ Divine? And, since He only had to sacrifice Himself once, does this speak to His eternalness, or do you believe that they are simply not related?

I am not sure that the two of you actually agree entirely, either, but I was just wondering about your thoughts on this verse, and these questions. Any others, who do not count Jesus as God, are welcome to reply as well. The Lord bless everyone.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

If you will read on to the next chapter you will PLAINLY see where 'my' answer is derived from.

Revelation 5

1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7And he, (Jesus Christ), came and took the book out of the right hand of him, (God), that sat upon the throne.

8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.


Now, you tell me. IS NOT 'The Lamb' Jesus Christ? And, when you finally come to this realization, you will PLAINLY see that the Lamb is NOT God. 'Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Does this not offer that Christ was slain and through His death was our redemption bought, allowing us too to become the sons of God?

This scripture plainly explains that in the hand of God was seen a book that NO ONE was worthy to open, EXCEPT Jesus Christ, (the Lamb of God).

MEC

I have no problem with the Scriptures that show God being the Father, and God being the Son. I understand the difficulty in understanding this knowledge of God with our finite human understanding, but it is a matter of spiritual discernment and faith. You still haven't answered my question:

Why do the four beasts worship Almighty God and declare that "He which was, which is, and which is to come"?

 

[mutzrein]

Mec and mutz,

Hi, I sometimes wonder how you both view Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." And, what do you believe about Chris't's lineage that qualifies Him as our priest, though He is not from the tribe of Levi? Is Christ Divine? And, since He only had to sacrifice Himself once, does this speak to His eternalness, or do you believe that they are simply not related?

I am not sure that the two of you actually agree entirely, either, but I was just wondering about your thoughts on this verse, and these questions. Any others, who do not count Jesus as God, are welcome to reply as well. The Lord bless everyone.

Hi Lovely

Been doing a quick scan of posts over the last few days I’ve been away and saw this one. I’ve been down country moving my elderly dad and stepmum to a new home in a town that has a much warmer climate and a lot closer to family.

Anyway, just a quick answer or two. Yes Mec and I do differ on some issues, just as natural brothers do. But differences don’t break the ‘oneness’ that we have in Christ as indeed is the case with any other who is born of the Spirit of God.

I do believe that Christ is divine and that he has always existed.
You see, to me, there is this fallacy which is based on human understanding. It says that man begets man and God begets God. It is often applied to Jesus by those who say that Jesus was both fully man and fully God. Their argument seems to be that since Jesus is the son of God, he is therefore God.

Now of course I don’t deny that Jesus is the son of God just as I don’t deny that Jesus was born of human flesh. But what proponents of this theory seem not to understand is that when someone is born of another, they don’t BECOME that person but they are of their ‘kind’. So when one is begotten of man he is by nature ‘mankind’. And Jesus, being begotten of God is by nature ‘divine’. But being the son of divine God, does not make him God himself.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

God WAS in 'the beginning. God IS in the present to those that are willing to 'accept' Him. And God WILL BE in the future, the ONE AND ONLY, ''TRUE GOD''.

So, there WAS a time in the past when men KNEW GOD. Adam KNEW GOD. Therefore God WAS 'the God of men'. God IS present RIGHT NOW, for those that are willing to accept Him. But MANY do NOT have God in their lives. And God, ONE DAY SOON, BE the ONLY 'God of man'.

I don't know if your judgement has been SO clouded that you are ONLY capable of 'seeing' in 'one direction'. Hopefully NOT. For there is MUCH for ALL to learn. But, when we begin to believe that we know EVERYTHING that matters, at this point, we are UNABLE to learn 'any more'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And let me offer this Mutz. I do NOT know the complete history of Christ. He may very well have 'always been'. Of this I am NOT 'sure'. But I certainly accept that man WAS created FOR Christ. This being the case, Christ has 'ALWAYS been' in reference to 'mankind'.

And as evidence of the possibility that Christ 'may not' have ALWAYS existed 'prior' to mankind, I offer that Christ IS the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE. This could VERY WELL be a reference to a 'time' when Christ did NOT exist. For IF we read the story of the 'days of creation', we find that 'let us' or 'our' is NOT stated until the 'creation of man'. It is quite possible that sometime between the 'beginning' of this universe and 'the creation of man', Christ Himself WAS created BY God, therefore becoming 'The Son of God' previous to the creation of 'life' on this planet.

These things are NOT revealed precisely no matter 'what' one may or may not believe. But that Christ IS The Son of God is without doubt. And that there IS deity in Christ is as well, without doubt. For Christ IS The Son of God, The Father. This in itself is a direct indication that, just as a 'prince' IS heir to the kingdom, so too is The Son of God ABOVE ALL, other than God Himself, just as 'the prince' would have 'power' but NOT above that of his father, The King.

Folks, God IS The Father of Christ. Christ IS The Son of God. There IS certainly God The Father, but we have NO scriptural reference to God 'The Son'.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo,

God WAS in 'the beginning. God IS in the present to those that are willing to 'accept' Him. And God WILL BE in the future, the ONE AND ONLY, ''TRUE GOD''.

So, there WAS a time in the past when men KNEW GOD. Adam KNEW GOD. Therefore God WAS 'the God of men'. God IS present RIGHT NOW, for those that are willing to accept Him. But MANY do NOT have God in their lives. And God, ONE DAY SOON, BE the ONLY 'God of man'.

I don't know if your judgement has been SO clouded that you are ONLY capable of 'seeing' in 'one direction'. Hopefully NOT. For there is MUCH for ALL to learn. But, when we begin to believe that we know EVERYTHING that matters, at this point, we are UNABLE to learn 'any more'.

MEC

My judgment has been given the amazing sight of the Spirit of God since I have been born again. Prior to that, I was spiritually blind. Upon being born again, I was amazed at the truth that abounded around me where before I could not see it.

Prior to being born again, I believed that Jesus was only the Son of God, and the God the Father was the one to be worshipped. After I was born again, I was brought into the relationship with God that is promised to all that believe, and through the Holy Spirit, come to know Jesus Christ as God almighty.

I know everything that God has revealed to me through the Holy Spirit, and He continually teaches me day by day. God Almighty the Word became flesh and died for our sins.

• [list:fe845]Amazing Grace by John Newton (1725-1807)
  
  Amazing grace! (how sweet the sound)
  That sav’d a wretch like me!
  I once was lost, but now am found,
  Was blind, but now I see.
  
  ’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
  And grace my fears reliev’d;
  How precious did that grace appear,
  The hour I first believ’d!
  
  Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
  I have already come;
  ’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
  And grace will lead me home.
  
  The Lord has promis’d good to me,
  His word my hope secures;
  He will my shield and portion be,
  As long as life endures.
  
  Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
  And mortal life shall cease;
  I shall possess, within the veil,
  A life of joy and peace.
  
  The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
  The sun forbear to shine;
  But God, who call’d me here below,
  Will be forever mine.

[/list:u:fe845]

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Have you 'ever' wondered what God would 'feel' if one were to mistakenly worship His Son AS HIM? Have you 'ever' pondered the question of whether we should simply accept Christ 'as offered' or if there 'may' be complications inserted when one 'decides' to worship Christ AS GOD?

I accept wholy the deity of Christ. Just NOT as God Himself. But as God's Son. His ONLY begotten. An entity that was and IS obedient to The Father JUST as we are encouraged to be. An entity empowered BY GOD, to bring God's word to mankind. Not JUST another prophet but the ACTUAL Son of God, sent to bring us God's message.

Being The Son CERTAINLY establishes 'deity', just NOT 'total equality'. For Christ WAS/IS obedient to God's will. He stated Himself that, 'The Father is GREATER than He'. And we KNOW that The Father IS GOD.

We have ALSO in The Word, that Christ offered us HIMSELF as sacrifice to God.

While I OPENLY admit that the 'way' in which the Bible is written, there 'are' lines of scripture that insinuate that Jesus and God are a 'part' of the 'same' entity. BUT, there is MUCH more scripture that PLAINLY states that Christ is NOT God, but The Son of God, (The Father).

So, while I will admit that there is certainly room to 'attempt' to prove this 'trinity', when we accept scripture 'as a WHOLE' there is NO WAY that this 'trinity' can be 'true'. Simply not possible unless one simply IGNORE all of scripture that PLAINLY offers that Christ is NOT God, but God's Son.

'Trinity' would offer that an explanation cannot be offered due to the 'mystery' of God. I find this repulsive in it's insinuation. God is NO mystery to those that know and love Him. He is an OPEN and HONEST Father to His children. Always has been.

Yet the CC created something 'mystical' out of something that is SO SIMPLE. They turned the creation into the CREATOR and insisted that EVERYONE under their influence ACCEPT 'their' teachings or suffer the consequences. And when we considered the 'strong arm' tactics that they used to 'force' this belief upon others, doesn't it become PERFECTLY CLEAR that this was NOT an offering of understanding brought to us by Christ or God, but created by 'men' that would NOT be proper sheppards of their brothers and sisters, but choose to torture and murder them instead. USING them for the sake of power and wealth.

Now, WHAT spirit do we KNOW is about these kinds of behavior? That of God? I think, (no, I KNOW), NOT. The church that created this 'trinity' CERTAINLY followed 'a' spirit, but through discernment offered THROUGH The Spirit, it becomes PERFECTLY clear that these that 'led' the CC were NOT following that offered by God but a 'faith' involved with 'something else'.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Have you 'ever' wondered what God would 'feel' if one were to mistakenly worship His Son AS HIM? Have you 'ever' pondered the question of whether we should simply accept Christ 'as offered' or if there 'may' be complications inserted when one 'decides' to worship Christ AS GOD?

I accept wholy the deity of Christ. Just NOT as God Himself. But as God's Son. His ONLY begotten. An entity that was and IS obedient to The Father JUST as we are encouraged to be. An entity empowered BY GOD, to bring God's word to mankind. Not JUST another prophet but the ACTUAL Son of God, sent to bring us God's message.

Being The Son CERTAINLY establishes 'deity', just NOT 'total equality'. For Christ WAS/IS obedient to God's will. He stated Himself that, 'The Father is GREATER than He'. And we KNOW that The Father IS GOD.

We have ALSO in The Word, that Christ offered us HIMSELF as sacrifice to God.

While I OPENLY admit that the 'way' in which the Bible is written, there 'are' lines of scripture that insinuate that Jesus and God are a 'part' of the 'same' entity. BUT, there is MUCH more scripture that PLAINLY states that Christ is NOT God, but The Son of God, (The Father).

So, while I will admit that there is certainly room to 'attempt' to prove this 'trinity', when we accept scripture 'as a WHOLE' there is NO WAY that this 'trinity' can be 'true'. Simply not possible unless one simply IGNORE all of scripture that PLAINLY offers that Christ is NOT God, but God's Son.

'Trinity' would offer that an explanation cannot be offered due to the 'mystery' of God. I find this repulsive in it's insinuation. God is NO mystery to those that know and love Him. He is an OPEN and HONEST Father to His children. Always has been.

Yet the CC created something 'mystical' out of something that is SO SIMPLE. They turned the creation into the CREATOR and insisted that EVERYONE under their influence ACCEPT 'their' teachings or suffer the consequences. And when we considered the 'strong arm' tactics that they used to 'force' this belief upon others, doesn't it become PERFECTLY CLEAR that this was NOT an offering of understanding brought to us by Christ or God, but created by 'men' that would NOT be proper sheppards of their brothers and sisters, but choose to torture and murder them instead. USING them for the sake of power and wealth.

Now, WHAT spirit do we KNOW is about these kinds of behavior? That of God? I think, (no, I KNOW), NOT. The church that created this 'trinity' CERTAINLY followed 'a' spirit, but through discernment offered THROUGH The Spirit, it becomes PERFECTLY clear that these that 'led' the CC were NOT following that offered by God but a 'faith' involved with 'something else'.

MEC

Before I was born again, I believed it wrong to worship Jesus Christ as God since he was only the Son of God. I believed that God the Father was the only one that was to be worshipped.

After being born of God, I came to understand that God came to earth as man, incarnate for the purpose of paying the debt of death of those who believe.

Who is to be worshipped? Only God is to be worshipped. Note the verses of Scripture below from King David, Jesus, and an angel of the Lord:

• 1 I will love thee, O LORD, my strength. 2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower. 3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. Psalm 18:1-3
  
  10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
  
  9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:9

Should we worship Jesus Christ as He is the word which is God?

• 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

Did Jesus reprimand Thomas as being in error when Thomas answered Jesus, "My Lord and my God." No.
Jesus replied, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:28-29)

Is God to be worshipped? Yes.
Does God recognize Jesus' as God with righteousness as the scepture of His kingdom? Yes.
How many kingdom's are there? One. God's Kingdom.

• 8 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

Was Jesus worshipped during His ministry on earth? Yes.
Did he declare that worshipping Him was wrong? No.

• 2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. Matthew 8:2-3
  
  18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live. Matthew 9:18
  
  33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. Matthew 14:33
  
  25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. Matthew 15:25
  
  20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. Matthew 20:20
  
  6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. Mark 5:6-7
  
  35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. John 8:35-38

Do Angels worship Jesus? Yes.
Is Jesus given the same praise and woship as God the Father? Yes.

• 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
  
  13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Revelation 5:13

Will every knee bow at the name of Jesus? Yes.
Will every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord? Yes.

• 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:10-11
  
  20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. Isaiah 45:20-24

PS. The Roman Catholic Church did not invent the fact that Jesus is God. It is an undeniable fact of the Scriptures. The Roman Catholic Church does not practice Jesus being God even if they pronounce a belief in the trinitarian concept. They believe that the pope is the head of the church, that Jesus only appears in the bread host which is idolotry, that Mary supercedes Jesus as intermediary and redeemer, etc. etc. etc. According to occultic writings, the Eucharist practiced by the Roman Catholics and other "transubstantion" communions are symbols of the Eucharist of the False Prophet to come. This Eucharist of the False Prophet will incorporate the Eucharistic practice of the RCC, the Mariology of the RCC, and the Priesthood of the RCC in order to bring allegience to Lucifer in the last days.

 

[jgredline]

Those who believe Jesus is God are in general agreement about the doctrine of salvation.
Those who do not believe Jesus to be God, differ greatly.....

Like Oscar said in his debate with deep. The bible made sense after he realized that Jesus is indeed God....This is ones own testimony from someone who was in a cult.....hard to argue that....

 

[stranger]

Imagician wrote:
And when we considered the 'strong arm' tactics that they used to 'force' this belief upon others, doesn't it become PERFECTLY CLEAR that this was NOT an offering of understanding brought to us by Christ or God, but created by 'men' that would NOT be proper sheppards of their brothers and sisters, but choose to torture and murder them instead. USING them for the sake of power and wealth.

Hi,

Let us consider the word 'persecution'.

There was firstly 'persecution of the church' in various degrees, do not forget the blood of the martyrs.

Then there is what you have brought up: persecution by the church - by their works you will know them. Again what was done in the name of the church? What was done by the church? God knows.

Then there is persecution in or within the church of those in the church. Many of us have sampled something of this at the hands of zealous brothers. I was once told 'expect anything within the church that happens outside the church.' It ought not to be so.

The saints now in heaven are free from persecution - the murderers and torturers are not among them. The Lord tells them to 'wait a little longer' behind the altar when they want to settle the scores. I suggest you wait there also because there is no other place where these exact grievances can be settled. After all they suffered these terrible things not you. See how God cares for and protects them?

He who puts his back to the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.

blessings: stranger

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Most of what you offered IS truth. Christ WAS worshiped while on this earth. And He WILL be worshiped as our KING upon His return. There is NOTHING 'wrong' with worshiping Christ. Worshiping Christ AS The Son of God is NOT worshiping Christ AS God. And NEVER do we find ANYONE, (other than Thomas), even INDICATING that Christ was worshiped AS GOD. Christ Himself stated that the sacrifice that He offered HE offered TO God.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Most of what you offered IS truth.

All that I offered was backed by the Scriptures. What do you suggest was not truth? That which does not align with your position?

Thomas declared that Jesus was God. Jesus did not rebuke him and tell him that only the Father was God, so how do you handle this verse. Does your stance on the Word of God not being literal fit into this occasion as well?

If Jesus is not God, and Jesus is not an angel, and Jesus is not created, who is Jesus?

 

[Imagican]

All that I offered was backed by the Scriptures. What do you suggest was not truth? That which does not align with your position?

Thomas declared that Jesus was God. Jesus did not rebuke him and tell him that only the Father was God, so how do you handle this verse. Does your stance on the Word of God not being literal fit into this occasion as well?

If Jesus is not God, and Jesus is not an angel, and Jesus is not created, who is Jesus?

I 'handle' this verse EXACTLY as it 'should be handled'. This is the 'story of Christ's life WRITTEN by John. John wrote down what HE WITNESSED. JOHN did NOT say, 'My Lord and my God', THOMAS DID. That John wrote down the words of Thomas by NO MEANS proves ANYTHING other than that he stated them.

The Jews accused Christ of being the son of the devil. Are we to accept this 'as fact' simply because it was stated in The Word? Of course not. And does ANYONE have ANY doubts that what WAS written was limited to their memory and inspiration of The Spirit. That The Word is NOTHING other than the BEGINNING of understanding? It is CERTAINLY not the END of understanding.

I have NEVER stated that Christ was NOT created. I don't have the information to STATE this 'as fact'. But I BELIEVE that there is MUCH evidence that points to 'a time' BEFORE Christ. I have stated MUCH of it. As a reminder;

The first days of the creation of this universe mention NO US, or OUR. Only upon the creation of man does The Word mention these two words.

Christ is stated to BE 'the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE. Break it down for yourself.

Christ mentions the 'fall of Satan' but NOT the creation of him, thus indicating that Satan may have been 'created' BEFORE Christ.

That Christ was 'able to learn' is an indication that he was born and grew in wisdom PREVIOUS to his 'taking on the flesh'.

Most of the people that have attempted to refute what I have offered concerning this issue take 'before' and 'always' to mean ETERNAL in the sense that there was NEVER a time 'before'. We are NOT TOLD THIS. What is written to us is PERTAINING to US. So, in essence; what we have been offered through The Word is THAT WHICH PERTAINS TO US. In this respect, Christ HAS always been. But we do NOT know that this was ALWAYS true from time immortal. There is MUCH information concerning God and Heaven that has NOT been revealed in The Word.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and Solo, have you ever taken this into consideration?;

John 20:17

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And IF so, what is YOUR interpretation of Christ calling God HIS God as well as ours? I mean, your view is that Jesus Christ IS God. Yet here we have Christ SPECIFICALLY STATING that OUR GOD IS HIS GOD as well. That OUR FATHER IS HIS FATHER AS WELL.

Many are quick to pick and choose scripture that 'back' their acceptance of 'trinity', while TOTALLY ignoring those that UTTERLY contradict it.

MEC

 

[Solo]

I 'handle' this verse EXACTLY as it 'should be handled'. This is the 'story of Christ's life WRITTEN by John. John wrote down what HE WITNESSED. JOHN did NOT say, 'My Lord and my God', THOMAS DID. That John wrote down the words of Thomas by NO MEANS proves ANYTHING other than that he stated them.

He also recorded what Jesus did in response to Thomas' remarks. He did not say that Thomas was wrong. NO. He said that Thomas BELIEVED. Jesus recognized that Thomas then knew that HE, JESUS WAS GOD!

John recorded the truth, and you continue to deny it. What gives?

The Jews accused Christ of being the son of the devil. Are we to accept this 'as fact' simply because it was stated in The Word? Of course not.

Your choosing bits and pieces of the Scriptures that side with your argument, along with your twisting and taking Scripures out of context keep you from the truth of God. When the Jews said that Jesus was of the devil, Jesus rebuked them and set them straight.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. John 8:46-50

If Jesus is going to correct the unbelieving Jews of their error, why would Jesus not correct Thomas, one of the twelve, if he was in error? Thomas was not in error. Thomas believed that Jesus is God, and that my friend is the truth.

Jesus rebuked the devil by telling the devil that he should not tempt the Lord his God, and when the devil tempted him again, Jesus commanded that the devil leave (Get thee hence), because the devil should be worshipping Him as God, not tempting Him.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. Matthew 4:7-11

Jesus is God and the Scriptures are very clear of this fact. Believe it or not.

And does ANYONE have ANY doubts that what WAS written was limited to their memory and inspiration of The Spirit. That The Word is NOTHING other than the BEGINNING of understanding? It is CERTAINLY not the END of understanding.
I have NEVER stated that Christ was NOT created. I don't have the information to STATE this 'as fact'. But I BELIEVE that there is MUCH evidence that points to 'a time' BEFORE Christ. I have stated MUCH of it. As a reminder;

The first days of the creation of this universe mention NO US, or OUR. Only upon the creation of man does The Word mention these two words.

Who created all things? Who created ALL of creation before man was created? Let's look at the Scriptures and determine what they say about who created ALL things.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:21

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:3

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, Genesis 2:4

NOTE: In Genesis 2:4 the Greek word translated LORD is JEHOVAH, therefore JEHOVAH GOD made the earth and the heavens.

Jesus says that God created all things.

For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. Mark 13:19

Jesus created ALL things and ALL things were created for Him and ALL things consist by HIM:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 2:16-17

The twenty-four elders in heaven praise the one sitting on the throne saying the same thing to Him on the throne as Paul records about Jesus in Colossians:

10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:10-11

In Revelation 10 it is recorded that an angel declares that God Almighty created the heavens and the earth and ALL that dwell therein; ALL that dwells in heaven that was created, and ALL that dwells in earth that was created.

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Revelation 10:5-6

Nothing was created that was created but that which was created by the word which became flesh which was with God and which was God. God became the first born of those creatures which are born of God when he became man in the flesh, Jesus Christ. Simple.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-14

Christ is stated to BE 'the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE. Break it down for yourself.

Christ mentions the 'fall of Satan' but NOT the creation of him, thus indicating that Satan may have been 'created' BEFORE Christ.

That Christ was 'able to learn' is an indication that he was born and grew in wisdom PREVIOUS to his 'taking on the flesh'.

Most of the people that have attempted to refute what I have offered concerning this issue take 'before' and 'always' to mean ETERNAL in the sense that there was NEVER a time 'before'. We are NOT TOLD THIS. What is written to us is PERTAINING to US. So, in essence; what we have been offered through The Word is THAT WHICH PERTAINS TO US. In this respect, Christ HAS always been. But we do NOT know that this was ALWAYS true from time emortal. There is MUCH information concerning God and Heaven that has NOT been revealed in The Word.

MEC

When you become a believer, then you will have the spiritual eyes and spiritual ears to see and hear the truth. Until then you only have eyes and ears of flesh to figure out God's truth. I hope you eventually turn from your ways, and turn to God's ways.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

I pray for the day that you will be a brother of mine in Christ Jesus.