Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[Solo]

Many worship Jesus but they do not know him; for if they really knew him, they would know that he is Immanuel. Those that are unfortunate and have been taught that Jesus is a created angel named Michael do not get that teaching on their own. They get that teaching from a group or from a spirit other than the body of Jesus Christ of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Saviour, and God says that he is the only Saviour, John says that Jesus is God and all things were created by him, nothing was created except that that which is created by Jesus. No angels were created except Jesus created them. Jesus created satan. Jesus was God in the beginning. I have shown you many times where Jesus is Jehovah God. You do have a bias. It seems to me that your bias is the same bias that the Jehovah Witnesses teach.
_________________
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

Solo,

You have NEVER heard me offer that Christ IS AN ANGEL by ANY NAME. Christ IS the Son of God. Not A son, but THE SON. So, please don't indicate that I am offering ANY SUCH NONSENSE. Thank you.

Again, I have NOT accused YOU of 'being a CATHOLIC' simply because you believe in 'trinity', so PLEASE, don't go accusing me of being the 'same' as the JW. I am NOT the 'same' as ANY 'man-made' church. Sorry, but these tactics will NOT work in defense of ANYTHING, for I UTTERLY deny these insinuations. Nada. NOT ME, my friend.

And God IS able to choose WHO represents Him and IS able to offer ANY amount of information or power to WHOMEVER He chooses. So, to say that God is the ONLY Savior so Christ MUST be God is 'weak' at best. For God IS the ONLY Savior in that He offered HIS SON as sacrifice for OUR SINS. That does NOT make Christ God by ANY stretch of the imagination. So, the act of dying WAS performed by Christ yet the Sacrifice was made BY GOD. Christ '
gave up' His life willingly, but it was God that allowed the sacrifice of HIS SON. So, you see, your reasoning is not as solid as you may have previously thought.

The King of any nation IS the ultimate rule. Yet HE IS capable of allowing that which HE CHOOSES to represent HIM. We see that in Egypt, Joseph was allowed ALL BUT The KING HIMSELF to be UNDER HIM, an Hebrew. How? IT WAS the WISH of THE LEADER OF THIS NATION.

Just as EVERYTHING IS UNDER GOD, even His Son. Yet He IS able to bestow ANY amount of authority to This SAME Son. If that be the authority to lay down His life for the sake of mankind, that is CERTAINLY within the realm of God's Power. HE chooses WHO, WHEN and WHERE, NOT us.

And this is 'where' the problem lies, the HEART of the matter at hand. Did God teach us that His Son were HE HIMSELF, or was this decided by men that had their OWN agenda in offering such teaching? I believe that turning Christ into ANYTHING 'other than' what He IS, is to create a false Christ or false God. It's really that simple. No different than carving an 'image' of Christ and bowing to it. Most KNOW that this is a 'false god' and of NO power whatsoever to alter or offer ANYTHING of God.

And Solo, please realize that I AM able to understand without JW's teaching me 'their truth', or Baptist teaching me 'their truth', or Catholics teaching me 'their truth', or Mormons,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, PERIOD. I follow NO denomination other than the doctrine offered through the Word and Spirit. I am affiliated with NO denomination. I recognize that each has it's share of the 'truth', but have found EACH lacking in an 'entire' truth. Only bits and pieces are they able to teach along with a BUNCH of 'man-made' stuff that TAKES away from the 'truth' rather than defining it.

And guys and gals, to even 'think' that there has been NO altering of the 'original writtings' in FAVOR of 'man-made' doctrine is to choose to be ignorant of the 'truth'. Yes, there is ENOUGH in The Word that HAS been preserved, but when we compare the ORIGINAL writtings to the KJV authorized version of the Bible, we DEFINITELY see that much has been altered in favor of doctrine that was NOT originally offered. That is the nature of ANYONE that wishes to interpret ANYTHING. It is interpreted or translated according to the understanding of the inrerpreter.. But, for the sake of this discussion, suffice is to say, that there is NO statement in the Bible that Christ offers that HE IS GOD. Inuendo maybe, but this certainly seems an 'underhanded way' to offer 'truth' concerning ANYTHING. My God IS a God of LOVE, NOT deception. My Savior, Jesus Christ, (the LAMB OFFERED), is His Son. Full of the SAME LOVE that the Father IS.

And let us NOT forget EXACTLY what was offered when Christ's followers asked Him HOW we should pray, 'Our FATHER, who ART in heaven...........THY WILL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.......... FOR THINE IS THE KINGDOM, POWER, AND GLORY FOR EVER. This offered from the mouth of Christ Himself. Nothing in this offers that we are to PRAY TO HIM. Kind of FUNNY, huh? I mean funny not in a ha ha sort of way, but funny as in STRANGE.

And PLEASE note that this is CHRIST praying. He offers quite plainly, OUR FATHER. not just His Father but OUR FATHER. The Father of man and of Christ Himself.

Now, considering we KNOW WHO THE FATHER IS, we have here Christ offering that Our God IS His God as well. For His Father IS Our Father as well. And who IS God? God IS The Father of both man AND Christ.

MEC

I know that you believe that Jesus is a created being, and I know that you believe that Jesus did not create all things, and I know that you have compared Jesus to angelic beings. I apologize for saying that you spoke that Jesus could be Michael the archangel, but I thought that you had posted that back when. My mistake.

Since you claim that Jesus never claimed to be God, and that the Apostles did not claim Jesus to be God, what Bible translation do you use to formulate your doctrinal beliefs, so that I can speak to you from your preferred scripture. This is for the purpose of using a translation that you trust as not being written by the Roman Catholic machine that you distrust. What Greek texts do you trust?

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Here is Romans chapter 5 in the NKJV
As you will see in my verse y verse commentary, this part of Scripture really begins in chapter 4 and ends in chapter 8. For the sake od space, we can do 1 chapter at a time.
Since I took the time to put this togther for you, I will expect for you to explain Gen 1:1 to me and how you interpret the theophanies.
Lets get started. First the Scriptures.
Oh, I should also point out that the book of Romans was written to Believers, NOT NON believers.. This makes a huge differance.. I gotta tell you MEC, you'r in over your head on this one.

Romans 5:1-21
5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Christ in Our Place
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[jgredline]

MEC
Take you time and chew on it.
I put this together on Microsoft word that I can e mail you if it would be easier.
I know it is for me.


The first great benefit enjoyed by those of us who have been justified by faith is peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The war is over. Hostilities have ceased. Through the work of Christ all causes of enmity between our souls and God have been removed. We have been changed from foes to friends by a miracle of grace.
5:2 Also we enjoy access into an indescribable position of favor with God. We are accepted in the Beloved One; therefore we are as near and dear to God as His own Beloved Son. The Father extends the golden scepter to us and welcomes us as sons, not strangers. This grace, or standing in favor, embraces every aspect of our position before God, a position that is as perfect and permanent as Christ’s because we are in Him.
As if that were not enough, we also rejoice in hope of the glory of God. This means that we joyfully look forward to the time when we will not only gaze on the splendor of God, but will ourselves be manifested in glory (see John 17:22; Col. 3:4). We cannot comprehend the full significance of that hope here on earth, nor will we get over the wonder of it through all eternity.
5:3 The fourth blessing that flows from justification is that we also glory in tribulationsâ€â€not so much in their present discomforts as in their eventual results. It is one of the delightful paradoxes of the Christian faith that joy can coexist with affliction. The opposite of joy is sin, not suffering. One of the by-products of tribulation is that it produces perseverance or steadfastness. We could never develop perseverance if our lives were trouble-free.
5:4 Paul now goes on to explain that perseverance works character. When God sees us bearing up under our trials and looking to Him to work out His purposes through them, He awards us His Good Endurance Seal of Approval. We have been tested and approved. And this sense of His approval fills us with hope. We know He is working in our lives, developing our character. This gives us confidence that, having begun a good work in us, He will see it through to completion
5:5 Hope does not disappoint. If we were to hope for something but then later find that we were never going to get it, our hope would be put to shame or disappointed. But the hope of our salvation will never be put to shame. We will never be disappointed or find that we have rested on a false confidence. How can we be so sure? Because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts. The love of God could mean either our love for God or His love for us. Here it means the latter because verses 6–20 rehearse some of the great proofs of God’s love for us. The Holy Spirit, given to us the moment we believe, floods our hearts with these expressions of God’s eternal love, and by these we are assured that He will see us safely home to heaven. After you receive the Spirit, you will sense that God loves you. You will know that Jesus is God. This is not a vague, mystical feeling that “Somebody up there†cares about humanity, but the deep-seated conviction that a personal God really loves you as an individual.

5:6 In verses 6–20, Paul argues from the lesser to the greater. His logic is that if God’s love went out to us when we were His ungodly enemies, will He not much more preserve us now that we belong to Him? This brings us to the fifth benefit of our justification; we are eternally secure in Christ. In developing this theme, the apostle introduces five “much mores.â€Â
The “much more†of deliverance from wrath (5:9).
The “much more†of preservation by His resurrection life (5:10).
The “much more†of the gift of grace (5:15).
The “much more†of the believer’s reign in life (5:17) of pure grace. The substitutionary death of Christ removed the cause of our hostility toward Godâ€â€namely, our sins. By faith in Christ we have been reconciled to God.
If God purchased our reconciliation so dearly, will He ever let us go? If we were reconciled through the death of His Son, which is a symbol of utter weakness, shall we not be preserved to the end by the present life of Christ at the right hand of God, a life of infinite power? If His death had such power to save us, how much more will His life have power to keep us!
5:11 And now we come to the sixth benefit of justification: we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We not only rejoice in His gifts but in the Giver Himself. Before we were saved we found our joys elsewhere. Now we exult whenever we remember Him, and are sad only when we forget Him. What has produced this marvelous change, so that we can now be glad in God? It is the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Like all our other blessings, this joy comes to us through Him.
The seventh benefit enjoyed by the justified is found in the words We have now received the reconciliation. Reconciliation refers to the establishment of harmony between God and man through the sacrificial work of the Savior. The entrance of sin had brought estrangement, alienation, and enmity between man and God. By putting away sin, which had caused the alienation, the Lord Jesus restored those who believe on Him to a state of harmony with God. We should note, in passing, that God did not need to be reconciled. It was man who needed it, because he was at enmity with God.

Mec
I have broken this section down into three sections to understand it better.

5:12 The rest of chapter 5 serves as a bridge between the first part of the letter and the next three chapters. It is linked with the first part by picking up the subjects of condemnation through Adam and justification through Christ, and by showing that the work of Christ far outweighs in blessing what the work of Adam did in misery and loss. It is linked with chapters 6–8 by moving from justification to sanctification, and from acts of sin to the sin in human nature. As I said in an earlier post. The Book of Romans clearly shows the triune God at work. Even taking in Chapter 5 as a whole does not begin to tell what the apostle Paul was saying here. This is just the beginning. Let us continue.
Adam is portrayed in these verses as the federal head or representative of all those who are in the old creation. Christ is presented as the Federal Head of all those who are in the new creation. A federal head acts for all those who are under him. For example, when the President of a country signs a bill into law, he is acting for all the citizens of that country.
That is what happened in Adam’s case. As a result of his sin, human death entered the world. Death became the common lot of all Adam’s descendants because they had all sinned in him. It is true that they all committed individual acts of sin as well, but that is not the thought here. Paul’s point is that Adam’s sin was a representative act, and all his posterity are reckoned as having sinned in him.
Someone might object that it was Eve and not Adam who committed the first sin on earth. That is true, but since Adam was the first to be created, headship was given to him. So he is seen as acting for all his descendants.
When the Apostle Paul says here that death spread to all men, he is referring to physical death, even though Adam’s sin brought spiritual death as well. When we come to this passage of Scripture, certain questions inevitably arise. Is it fair that Adam’s posterity should be constituted sinners just because he sinned? Does God condemn men for being born sinners, or only for those sins which they have actually committed? If men are born with a sinful nature, and if they therefore sin because they are born sinners, how can God hold them responsible for what they do?
Bible scholars have wrestled with these and a host of similar problems and have come up with a surprising variety of conclusions. However, there are certain facts that we can be sure of.
First, the Bible does teach that all men are sinners, both by nature and by practice. Everyone born of human parents inherits Adam’s sin, and also sins by his own deliberate choice.
Second, we know that the wages of sin is deathâ€â€both physical death and eternal separation from God.
But no one has to pay the penalty of sin unless he wants to. This is the important point. At enormous cost, God sent His Son to die as a Substitute for sinners. Salvation from sin and its wages is offered as a free gift through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Man is condemned on three grounds: He has a sinful nature, Adam’s sin is imputed to him, and he is a sinner by practice. But his crowning guilt is his rejection of the provision which God has made for his salvation But someone will ask, “What about those who have never heard the gospel?†This question is answered in part, at least, in chapter 1. Beyond that we can rest in the assurance that the Judge of all the earth will do right. He will never act unjustly or unfairly. All His decisions are based on equity and righteousness. Although certain situations pose problems to our dim sight, they are not problems to Him. When the last case has been heard and the doors of the courtroom swing shut, no one will have a legitimate basis for appealing the verdict.
5:13 Paul will now demonstrate that Adam’s sin affected the whole race. He first points out that sin was in the world during the period from Adam to the giving of the law at Mount Sinai. But during that time there was no clearly revealed law of God. Adam had received a clear oral commandment from the Lord, and many centuries later the Ten Commandments were a distinct written revelation of divine law. But in the intervening period men did not have a legal code from God. Therefore, although there was sin during that time, there was no transgression, because transgression is the violation of a known law. But sin is not imputed as transgression when there is no law forbidding it.
5:14 Yet death did not take a holiday during the age when there was no law. With the single exception of Enoch, death held sway over all mankind. You could not say that these people died because they had transgressed a clear command of God, as Adam did. Why then did they die? The answer is implied: they died because they had sinned in Adam. If this seems unfair, remember that this has nothing to do with salvation. All those who put their faith in the Lord were saved eternally. But they died physically just the same, and the reason they died was because of the sin of their federal head, Adam. In his role as federal head, Adam was a type (symbol) of Him who was to comeâ€â€that is, the Lord Jesus Christ. In the succeeding verses Paul will develop the subject of these two federal heads, but more by contrast than by similarities. He will show that:
In Christ the sons of Adam boast
More blessings than their father lost.
5:15 The first contrast is between the offense of Adam and the free gift of Christ. By the trespass of the first man, the many died. The many here refers, of course, to Adam’s descendants. Death here may include spiritual as well as physical death.
The free gift abounds much more to the many. The free gift is the marvelous manifestation of the grace of God abounding to a race of sinners. It is made possible by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ. It was amazing grace on His part to die for His rebellious creatures. Through His sacrificial death, the gift of eternal life is offered to the many.
The two manys in this verse do not refer to the same people. The first many includes all who became subject to death as a result of Adam’s trespass. The second many means all who become members of the new creation, of which Christ is the Federal Head. It includes only those to whom God’s grace has aboundedâ€â€that is, true believers. While God’s mercy is showered on all, His grace is appropriated only by those who trust the Savior.
5:16 There is another important contrast between Adam’s sin and Christ’s gift. The one offense of Adam brought inevitable judgment, and the verdict was “Condemned.†The free gift of Christ, on the other hand, dealt effectively with many offenses, not just one, and resulted in the verdict “Acquitted.†Paul highlights the differences between Adam’s sin and Christ’s gift, between the terrible havoc wrought by one sin and the tremendous deliverance wrought from many sins, and finally between the verdict of condemnation and the verdict of justification.
5:17 By the one man’s offense, death reigned as a cruel tyrant. But by the gracious gift of righteousness, a gift of overflowing grace, all believers reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
What grace this is! We are not only delivered from death’s reign as a tyrant over us, but we reign as kings, enjoying life now and eternally. Do we really understand and appreciate this? Do we live as the royalty of heaven, or do we grovel among the muckheaps of this world?
5:18 The offense of Adam brought condemnation to all men, but the righteous act of Christ brought justification of life to all. The righteous act was not the Savior’s life or His keeping of the law, but rather His substitutionary death on Calvary. This is what brought justification of lifeâ€â€that is, the justification that results in lifeâ€â€and brought it to all men.
The two alls in this verse do not refer to the same people. The first all means all who are in Adam. The second all means all who are in Christ. This is clear from the words in the preceding verse “those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness ... .†The gift must be received by faith. Only those who trust the Lord receive justification of life.
5:19 Just as by Adam’s disobedience to God’s command many were made sinners, so also by Christ’s obedience to the Father many who trust Him are declared righteous. Christ’s obedience led Him to the cross as our Sin bearer.
It is futile for universalists to use these verses to try to prove that all men will eventually be saved. The passage deals with two federal headships, and it is clear that just as Adam’s sin affects those who are “in him,†so Christ’s righteous act benefits only those who are “in Him.â€Â
5:20 What Paul has been saying would come as a jolt to the Jewish objector who felt that everything revolved around the law. Now this objector learns that sin and salvation center not in the law but in two federal heads. That being the case, he might be tempted to ask, “Why then was the law given?†The apostle answers, The law entered that the offense might abound. It did not originate sin, but it revealed sin as an offense against God. It did not save from sin but revealed sin in all its awful character.
But God’s grace proves to be greater than all man’s sin. Where sin abounded, God’s grace at Calvary abounded much more!
5:21 Now that the reign of sin, inflicting death on all men, has been ended, grace reigns through righteousness, giving eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Notice that grace reigns through righteousness. All the demands of God’s holiness have been met, and the penalty of the law has been paid, so God can now grant eternal life to all who come pleading the merits of Christ, their Substitute.

Mec
Don't forget my Gen 1:1 question and explain to me the Christophanies and how they are Not Jesus in the flesh as GOD.

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Here is a commentary by Pastor Chuck Smith of The Word for Today and Calvary Chapel.. I wish I would have read this earlier. It would have saved me 4 hours worth of work.. Atleast I seem to be on the same page as him.


justification
(Gk. dikaiosis) (4:25; 5:18) Strong's 1347: The Greek noun for justification is derived from the Greek verb dikaioo, meaning "to acquit" or "to declare righteous" (used by Paul in 4:2, 5; 5:1). It is a legal term used of a favorable verdict in a trial. The word depicts a courtroom setting, with God presiding as the Judge, determining the faithfulness of each person to the Law. In the first section of Romans, Paul makes it clear that no one can withstand God's judgment (3:9). The Law was not given to justify sinners but to expose their sin. To remedy this deplorable situation, God sent His Son to die for our sins, in our place. When we believe in Jesus, God imputes His righteousness to us, and we are declared righteous before God. In this way, God demonstrates that He is both a righteous Judge and the One who declares us righteous, our Justifier (3:26).
5:1 Peace here is not a subjective feeling of peace. Rather, this peace is the state of being at peace instead of at war. The hostility between God and the believer has ceased. The believer has been reconciled to God.
5:2 To have access means "to approach," as if by introduction into a king's throne room. Believers have been granted admission to stand before God. Even though they were once rebels, they do not have to face His judgment. Instead they approach His throne in the realm of grace, or in the King's favor. Rejoice means "to boast" and hope means "expectation." Believers boast in the sure expectation of the glory of God. They are confident, for God Himself has placed the Holy Spirit in their hearts (v. 5).
5:3 Glory is the same Greek word that is translated "rejoice" in v. 2. Believers can rejoice, glory, and boast not only in their future hope (v. 2) but also in their present troubles. Tribulations refers to physical hardship, suffering, and distress. Perseverance means "endurance." Trials and tribulation produce endurance when we exercise faith during those difficult times (see James 1:2, 3). Such faith produces its own reward (see Matt. 5:10; 2 Tim. 2:12).
5:4 Perseverance produces character, the quality of being approved. As believers endure tribulation, God works in them to develop certain qualities and virtues that will strengthen them and draw them closer to Him. The result is fortified hope in God and His promises.
5:5 The hope that believers have of their future glory with God will not disappoint them by being unfulfilled. They will not be put to shame or humiliated because of their hope. The reason the believer can be so confident is that the love of God has been poured out. The moment a person trusts in Christ, that person receives the Holy Spirit (see 8:9), who constantly encourages them in their hope in God.
5:6 Paul now explains the nature of God's love. God loved us when we were still without strength and ungodly. God loved us so much He sent His Son to die for us (see v. 8). God loves us just the way we are, but He loves us too much to leave us the way we are (see John 15:16; Phil. 1:6).
5:9, 10 If God loved us when we were helpless, ungodly enemies, how much more will He love us now that we are His children? By His blood . . . through the death of His Son we have been justified, that is "declared righteous," and reconciled, meaning our state of alienation from God has been changed. Believers are no longer enemies of God; they are at peace with God (v. 1). we shall be saved: Many take these verses to refer to final salvation from the presence of sin. But in this context, Paul goes on to discuss being saved from the power of sin (see ch. 6). Thus wrath here is God's present wrath (see 1:18), and His life is the life of Christ in believers (see v. 18). The point is that since God's love and the death of Christ have brought us justification, then as a result of that love, we can also expect salvation from God's wrath. To experience this truth, the believer must fully cooperate with the process that is explained in 6:1 (see John 8:32). The believer must die to sin and present himself or herself to God as an "instrument of righteousness" (see 6:14).
Word Focus
reconciliation
(Gk. katallage) (5:11; 11:15; 2 Cor. 5:18, 19) Strong's 2643: The Greek word basically means "change" or "exchange." In the context of relationships between people, the term implies a change in attitude on the part of both individuals, a change from enmity to friendship. When used to describe the relationship existing between God and a person, the term implies the change of attitude on the part of both a person and God. The need to change the sinful ways of a human being is obvious; but some argue that no change is needed on the part of God. But inherent in the doctrine of justification is the changed attitude of God toward the sinner. God declares a person who was formerly His enemy to be righteous before Him.
5:12 The one man is Adam. Through him sin entered the world. Sin brought death. The result is that death is now a universal experience. The phrase because all sinned does not mean just that "all have sinned" sometime in their lives, thus referring to individual sins. Paul takes his readers back to the beginning of human history, to the one sin that brought death upon us all. The unity of the human race is demonstrated here. In Adam, we all sinned (see 1 Cor. 15:22). The result is physical and spiritual death for everyone. From Adam we inherited a sin nature. Furthermore, as a result of our sin in Adam, we face a common judgment-death.
5:13, 14 Until the law, that is until the Law of Moses was given, sin was not imputed. Imputed means "to charge to one's account," as by an entry made in a ledger. In other words, sin was present in the world from Adam to Moses, but God did not keep an account of sins before the giving of the Law because there was no Law to obey or disobey. not sinned: Those after Adam and before Moses did not sin like Adam because there were no prohibitions similar to the Law of Moses. But they did sin, and the way we know this is that death reigned. They all died.
5:15 Through one man, Adam, death came. Yet through one Man, Jesus Christ, grace and the gift of God, eternal life, was given. much more: The works of the two men, Adam and Jesus, are not merely antithetical. Christ's work is greater, for it brings God's grace to those stuck in the sinfulness which originated in Adam.
5:16 Through Adam came condemnation, a word used only three times in the New Testament, and all three times in Romans (see v. 18; 8:1). The word refers to "the punishment following a judicial sentence." In the face of this, through Christ came the free gift that resulted in justification. That is to say, the aim or goal of the gift is justification, or "righteousness." In v. 18, the same word is translated "righteous act." In other words, the goal of the gift of eternal life is righteous living. This does not refer to justification by faith but to the practical outworking of faith through righteous acts (see 6:16). Thus this verse contrasts the penal servitude of a sinner with the righteous life of a believer.
5:18 Here Paul completes the comparison begun in v. 12 between the sinful work of Adam and the righteous work of Jesus. Through Adam came condemnation. Through Christ came justification of life, a justification that produces life.
5:19 Made means "to make," "constitute." As the result of Adam's sin, people became sinners. By Christ's death many will be made righteous (in contrast to declared righteousness, see 4:3). That is, believers are actually being constituted or made righteous. Through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, the believer who has been declared righteous by God is continually becoming more righteous.
5:20 the offense might abound: Law magnified sin. What was inherently wrong became formally and explicitly wrong once the Law was revealed. grace abounded much more: The Greek term Paul uses means "superabounded." Not only can sin never exceed the grace provided by God, sin loses its threat when compared to the superabounding grace of God.
:D

 

[Atonement]

Whoa.... Listen we are not here to tell someone if they are born again or not. That is between that person and God. We are told to examine the fruit of their spirit. But no one should say "you are" or "your not" born again. Let's pray for our brother to examine their own salvation. At times we ALL backslide and fall from the grace of God. Shall we at least agree on that?

 

[Solo]

Whoa.... Listen we are not here to tell someone if they are born again or not. That is between that person and God. We are told to examine the fruit of their spirit. But no one should say "you are" or "your not" born again. Let's pray for our brother to examine their own salvation. At times we ALL backslide and fall from the grace of God. Shall we at least agree on that?

And some are false brethren either knowingly or not. What does the scriptures say about them, and how to discern the same? Not all members of this forum are children of God. Not all doctrines presented on this forum are teachings (doctrines) of God, but are false teachings (doctrines).

When an individual is told that he is either a child of God or a child of the devil for there is nothing inbetween, is that good or bad? What would John the Baptist do as moderator on this forum? Just some curious thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Imagican]

j,

This is in reply to your first post. Christophanies? You CAN'T be serious. This is but ANOTHER of the 'man-made' theologies to which I refer. You seem to have 'bought into' the theology of 'the churches' lock, stock and barrel. All I can say is that I thank God DAILY that I was spared this for I can't imagine having to 'start over' in order to 'find' the 'TRUTH'. No insult intended j I assure you. But I have witnessed this over and over and now recognize how difficult it is for one to 'change' one's understanding once they have 'made up their minds'. The churches ARE a difficult force to contend with. Meant to be that way. But, trust in that which is NOT of God will ALWAYS lead one in the 'wrong' direction.

A little piece of 'friendly advice'. Take it for what it's worth. When you see the 'world' FLOCKING in a particular direction, run, RUN, my friend, RUN AWAY. Run in the OPPOSITE direction. For the 'world' will ALWAYS seek it's OWN. That which pleases the ears and eyes. That which brings personal pleasure to one's soul. That which brings that which appeases the senses that ARE THE FLESH.

Your essay on the 'gist' of this part of Romans is well thought out and, for the most part, relatively accurate. What you completely 'left out' and even in places inserted 'YOUR' opinion however, seem to DELIBERATELY avoid what I have asked you and simply offered conjecture in the 'guise' of understanding. Scary. For the unlearned could be very well persuaded by 'your opinion' here rather than the 'truth'. For you offered over and over that Jesus IS God without ANY EVIDENCE whatsoever to MAKE such statements.

What I offered was 'evidence' that what you offer is NOT accurate. In these verses that I have offered of Romans, it specifically OFFERS that Christ is NOT God but God is HIS GOD TOO. In MANY places throughout these verses there is PURE EVIDENCE of the distinction between Christ and God. Yet you would interject, even when this ISN'T the theme of your writting, that Jesus IS God. Can't you 'see' how an agenda can alter what is offered? It puts one in the position to attempt to defend even when defense ISN'T needed.

Once again, let me offer this j. Upon my coming to Christ I knew NOTHING of 'trinity', three part gods, I KNEW NOTHING of scripture or even the basics of Salvation itself as taught by the churches. You see, I DIDN'T NEED THEM. God chose to reveal Himself to me, through His Son, while I was AN ENEMY OF THEM BOTH. Why? Couldn't tell you. Perhaps to offer what I am offering right this very minute. I DON'T know. I DO KNOW that I DID NOT deserve it from my understanding and STILL DON'T. So this IS a mystery to me. If not for the offerings of Paul I would think that I simply 'went insane' from my previous perspective.

It was well over a year after accepting Christ into my heart that I begin to mingle with churches or those that were 'Christians'. Previous to that, it was just ME God and His Son. Sounds kinda funny now but at the time it was like I was literally BORN AGAIN. That I had become 'something' NEW. Totally different than that which I was such a short time before. I grew by the day at first, then I began to grow MUCH in a day. Then, sometimes by the hour and then it seemed at one point that I was growing by the second. It was at this point that I became exposed to that which is 'traditional'. And what a 'surprise' I was in for.

'Trinity'. I heard someone use this word and had to stop them where they were. 'Trinity', what's that? I was quickly told that without it, I was NOT saved. All I could do was simply laugh at this person. They took immediate offense and began to TELL me that Jesus WAS God and the whole thing about the three persons in one. At first I simply thought this person had lost THEIR mind. But in a short period of time I began to find that practically EVERYONE that 'claimed' to be Christian knew of this 'trinity'. I felt UTTERLY betrayed by my God and Jesus. I prayed incessantly, 'How could they do this to me'. After much prayer I was led to study this 'trinity' The results are without question in my mind or heart NOW. It took about a year to come to the 'truth' concerning this doctrine and I have offered what I KNOW over and over on this forum.

You see j, I KNOW the miracles that have been wrought in my life. I know that Satan OWNED me for many years and I didn't even know it. So BELIEVE ME when I tell you, if there's ANYONE that I KNOW it's he who was MY DADDY for over thirty years. I reconize him in disguise, I recognize him in the dark, I recognize him when he has the nerver to appear in the light. I have been intimate with this enemy of God and know him better than I know myself.

Now I follow God. NO, not every second, I find that to be a difficult challenge in the world in which we live today. I must work and shop and do those things that the rest of the world does and there is CERTAINLY a degree of influence that this has. But I KNOW GOD. and I KNOW HIS SON. Of these two statements there is NO doubt in my mind or heart.

Here's the snag though. The more I learned of these that accept 'trinity', the more I learned that these DID NOT seem to understand MUCH of what matters most in a relationship between man and God. They seem to 'think' that it's done through 'man-made' theology rather than a simple effort on the part of ANYONE that chooses to develope a personal relationship. They seem to insist on a BUNCH OF THINGS that I KNOW are NOT what God intended for us to teach each other. For I KNOW the relationship that I have and I had NONE of this 'stuff' that so many insist that I MUST HAVE. Funny, huh?

What I find is that most that claim are simply claiming. They KNOW NOTHING other than what they have been taught in the churches. They have simply accepted the words of men and have mostly ignored the Words of God and His Son. They basically like to 'play Christian'. Go to church and sing and have a good time once or twice a week and then THINK that this 'pleases' God enough to smile down upon them. Guess what? WRONG. We have what has been offered to those such as these. Revelation speaks plainly about those that 'play the game' for their 'OWN' sake. That is NOT what God wants. Those that like to brag about how 'righteous they are' and 'all that they do for others', 'make videos of themselves offering 'a meal' to starving children in Africa' so that they can take it back home and beg for more of OUR money so that they can do such 'good work'. The 'truth' is far, FAR from this my friend.

Look j, I don't know you or anything about you. I accuse NO one of ANYTHING. That is between them and God to deal with. What I offer is a 'sprinkling of the truth' so that there may be ONE or two that indeed desire the 'truth'. I am here to plant the seed for those that sincerily desire their lives to 'be different'. i know where I came from and what God has done in my life and just WISH that I may be able to help someone else avoid what it took for me to get here.

So, bottom line; I KNOW that 'trinity' is 'man-made' theology and that ONE DOES NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT IT to develope a personal relationship with God. Whether Christ IS God or not I know God THROUGH HIS SON and that's what I can offer to anyone that cares to listen. I have the Word and in it, I HAVE FOUND NO 'trinity' or even this Christ IS God thing that so many insist upon in order for ME to be saved. Funny, but I don't NEED a single person on this planet to receive Salvation. NOT A ONE. There is ONLY ONE WAY that I KNOW of to receive it and that IS AS A GIFT. NOT what you or I can do FOR God, BUT what He can and will do for US. ALL we can offer God that He desires is OUR LOVE.

And I KNOW this: He commanded us NOT to make up OUR OWN gods. COMMANDED THIS OF US. Yet, if one studies the history behind 'trinity', on QUICKLY finds that this is EXACTLY what the RCC DID. Created 'their OWN god' in Jesus Christ. Carving status of Him and FORCING EVERYONE under their control to WORSHIP 'their WAY' or die. This is what I DO KNOW. I KNOW that Constantine, a PAGAN Emperor was the deciding factor in the 'trinity' being accepted into ORGANIZED Christianity. And I KNOW that there has ALWAYS been a 'remnant' that REFUSED to accept the heresy of the CC. They TRIED their best to destroy ALL who opposed THEM, but God is GOOD and made sure that there has ALWAYS been a remnant in order for the 'TRUTH' to shine through even the DARKEST days that Satan would bring among us.

See, these things I KNOW j. I don't simply come here speaking MY words. I speak that which has been offered and do it WILLINGLY regardless of WHO or HOW MANY may attack them or deny them. I do what I MUST for the sake of what I have been offered. For you see, I once WAS LOST, and NOW am FOUND and this is the 'greatest gift' that I can imagine FOR ANYONE. Especially someone who was AS LOST as I WAS.

God IS Good, my friend and He loves US more than we can imagine. So MUCH so that He sent HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON to die for US while we were YET His enemies. How much MORE will He offer those that LOVE Him IN RETURN? See, THIS IS what I KNOW.

MEC

 

[Atonement]

And some are false brethren either knowingly or not. What does the scriptures say about them, and how to discern the same? Not all members of this forum are children of God. Not all doctrines presented on this forum are teachings (doctrines) of God, but are false teachings (doctrines).

When an individual is told that he is either a child of God or a child of the devil for there is nothing inbetween, is that good or bad? What would John the Baptist do as moderator on this forum? Just some curious thoughts. Thanks.

I agree that all are not of God on this forum and I agree that most of the doctrines do not agree with the Bible. John the baptist was not in the grace period. John was not part of the New testament Church. John the baptist has little meaning here. But I respect the source. I can not say to you Solo that your a Christian or not. You might live a righteous lifestyle, attend Church every Sunday, give your tithes, pray and take communion etc etc. But does that make you a Christian? Of course not. One might be born again but they are still a baby in the Lord and don't know the Scriptures that well. They are in need of milk and not solid meat. So what do we do?? We minister to them, sharing with them the Gospel, pray with them and have fellowship, so they can grow into a strong person in the Lord. All I'm saying here is that we need to be careful not to accuse any man of not being born again; Unless they come out and tell us they don't believe Jesus is God, don't believe the Bible, and the cross is foolish..

 

[mutzrein]

Solo & JG

I have absolutely no problem with scripture (and I think we both know I’m talking about the one with 66 books). So you can quote scripture as much as you like because what it does for me is to confirm my relationship with God – not deny it.

Oh – and by the way – I don’t claim to have done this in Jesus name and that in Jesus name (casting out demons, healing the sick etc) because I know that there is absolutely nothing that I can do of myself. All I can do is bow the knee before the king of creation, acknowledging his righteousness and walking in the light of the knowledge of the gospel that He has shone into my heart. Should He work miracles through me, then all praise and honour and glory is unto Him - and it is nothing to do with me.

And in any case I don’t have to add ‘in Jesus name’ like some magic formula as those who believe that to have your prayers answered you have to be sure to say the right words - ‘in Jesus name’. This is like making a political statement by which if you get the words right, you’re in the party. Because this is what Jesus is talking about and it is a far cry (in fact the opposite end of the spectrum) from those who know what it is to be in Christ, who understand that it is in and through Christ Jesus that we have our being. These people walk and talk in Jesus name because they are doing the will of the Father who has granted them authority as heirs with Christ of His wonderful kingdom.

But then again, I doubt that many even understand what I am talking about because in the same manner they believe that if you don’t make the political statement, ‘Jesus is God’, then you cannot be saved.

And so is fulfilled yet again Jesus’ words in John, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

Again as John says, ‘Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.’

And I praise God that he is the author and finisher of my salvation. I am a child of God, ‘not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.’ And this is the righteousness that God requires. There is nothing of me – not even human decision – because if there was I could claim like you that I had chosen God.

So when man claims that he made a decision to accept Jesus as God in order to gain eternal life’, he denies the righteousness imputed by faith and stands in his own self-righteousness. All who do so, clothe themselves in filthy rags thinking that they are in fact, wedding garments.

 

[Solo]

And some are false brethren either knowingly or not. What does the scriptures say about them, and how to discern the same? Not all members of this forum are children of God. Not all doctrines presented on this forum are teachings (doctrines) of God, but are false teachings (doctrines).

When an individual is told that he is either a child of God or a child of the devil for there is nothing inbetween, is that good or bad? What would John the Baptist do as moderator on this forum? Just some curious thoughts. Thanks.

I agree that all are not of God on this forum and I agree that most of the doctrines do not agree with the Bible. John the baptist was not in the grace period. John was not part of the New testament Church. John the baptist has little meaning here. But I respect the source. I can not say to you Solo that your a Christian or not. You might live a righteous lifestyle, attend Church every Sunday, give your tithes, pray and take communion etc etc. But does that make you a Christian? Of course not. One might be born again but they are still a baby in the Lord and don't know the Scriptures that well. They are in need of milk and not solid meat. So what do we do?? We minister to them, sharing with them the Gospel, pray with them and have fellowship, so they can grow into a strong person in the Lord. All I'm saying here is that we need to be careful not to accuse any man of not being born again; Unless they come out and tell us they don't believe Jesus is God, don't believe the Bible, and the cross is foolish..

Well, I believe that we are on the same page! I am straight to the point and without waver when proclaiming the Word of God, and I have a discernment of false teachings and false teachers via the Holy Spirit. Let me know via PM when I am overextending or if you have a question about my direction in a topic.

Thanks.

PS. I am far from perfect, but the Holy Spirit hasn't missed once yet. :wink:

 

[Atonement]

Let me know via PM when I am overextending or if you have a question about my direction in a topic.

Thanks.

PS. I am far from perfect, but the Holy Spirit hasn't missed once yet

Listen, I'm posting here as a believer in Christ and a fellow poster. Just because I'm a MOD here and posting under you does not mean your doing something wrong. Infact you did nothing wrong. But as a Christian I'm just saying that we (the Church) should be careful how we word things to others.

 

[mutzrein]

Let me know via PM when I am overextending or if you have a question about my direction in a topic.

Thanks.

PS. I am far from perfect, but the Holy Spirit hasn't missed once yet

Listen, I'm posting here as a believer in Christ and a fellow poster. Just because I'm a MOD here and posting under you does not mean your doing something wrong. Infact you did nothing wrong. But as a Christian I'm just saying that we (the Church) should be careful how we word things to others.

Who was this directed to then? Because it is Solo who uses his so called 'discernment' to accuse others of not being born again.

Whoa.... Listen we are not here to tell someone if they are born again or not. That is between that person and God. We are told to examine the fruit of their spirit. But no one should say "you are" or "your not" born again. Let's pray for our brother to examine their own salvation. At times we ALL backslide and fall from the grace of God. Shall we at least agree on that?

And for goodness sake don't talk about a believer falling from grace. I don't think he believes that possible. :-?

 

[Atonement]

It was directed at not one person but ALLLLLLLLL

And for goodness sake don't talk about a believer falling from grace. I don't think he believes that possible.

I think you should not think about what others might think because in the end all you have is a thought!!!

 

[jgredline]

Mec
I have taken no offense to anything you have said and I hope I have not offended you in any way. As passionate as You are regarding what you believe, I feel the very same way about what I believe.

As far as Romans 5 goes, I explained it the way it was meant to be read in the Church by the believers in Rome. I did not dodge the questions you asked or highlighted, because they were addressed in my commentary. To have said anything else would have been teaching falsely. I also said that taking that Chapter in Romans 5 is really taking the chapter out on context because it really starts in chapter 4 and ends in chapter 8.. As I am sure you know that in the original writings, there was no chapters or verses. That was installed by man.

As far as Proof through the scriptures that Jesus is God, You have been presented with so many scriptures by Solo, GolfJack, and others that you simply ignore them like they were not there.
I ask you to explain the Christophonies to me and your answer is that they are man made theologies. I say OK. The terms are man made, but you tell me who is Gideon speaking to in Judges 6 for example. Tell me who adam was speaking to in the garden? Explain to me who THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IS? Here is a link to my personal website. http://www.pro4machineworks.com/The_Ang ... _LORD.html

You also avoided my Gen 1:1 explanation..
You explain it to me. I only took biblical hebrew for 1 semester so perhaps I am rusty in that area.. When we get to the NT i will do better as I did take Greek for 2 years although its been along time ago, so I will be better equipped. Of course my classes were taught by professors who teach at Masters and at Fuller so their bias will lean twords the Triune God head, but the words are what they say.
There is an old saying.
God says what he means and he means what he says...

I will also now start to feed you verses
2 peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Unlike John 1:1 there is a definate article in the above verse so there is no disputing that Peter is refering to Jesus as GOD...

του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

Here we have the end of the verse.There is a definate article that is genative, Singular and masculine which is a personal pronoun that is Genitive plural followed by a conjunction that Goes to masculine, singular nouns..
So in the plural (meaning more than 1) you have both God and Jesus as equals..

 

[mutzrein]

It was directed at not one person but ALLLLLLLLL

But hang on. It was THIS person who was making the accusation - not ALLLLLLL. And then you told him he did nothing wrong. Now brother, did you err? In which case I can accept that . . . but if you didn't, please explain the apparent about face?

And for goodness sake don't talk about a believer falling from grace. I don't think he believes that possible.

I think you should not think about what others might think because in the end all you have is a thought!!!

:D Good one! . . . I think . . . Well I thought it was!

 

[Atonement]

Mec,
I agree with jgredline, you have been given many Scriptures to study as a reference. Any good Bible Student should study to show themself approved. the Bible states to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. I read this whole thread and what I don't understand is how you can dismiss so many Scriptures? can you help me understand you? Follow me here okay??

If I say God will judge man because of his sins; And ones responce to me was "my god is loving and will forgive me of my sins because I'm human and he made me that way.."

Is that not a form of creating your own god to fit your own belief?

Okay, many people do this same thing, they take a certain Scripture they like and dismiss all the others and in the end they come up with a god that they have created in their own mind. Scriptures tells us many times over that Christ is God. If you would like to know more from the Greek which I also speak, read and write. Please by all means PM me because this is IMPORTANT.. Your Salvation "could" depend on it.

 

[Atonement]

But hang on. It was THIS person who was making the accusation - not ALLLLLLL. And then you told him he did nothing wrong. Now brother, did you err? In which case I can accept that . . . but if you didn't, please explain the apparent about face?

I did not come here to accuse anyone of anything. I asked that we should not tell someone if they are born again or not. I have not the power or the authorithy from God to accuse a man for how he has acted with you on this matter. All I can ask is that we watch what we say and that goes for ALLLL

 

[jgredline]

Mec,
I agree with jgredline, you have been given many Scriptures to study as a reference. Any good Bible Student should study to show themself approved. the Bible states to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. I read this whole thread and what I don't understand is how you can dismiss so many Scriptures? can you help me understand you? Follow me here okay??

If I say God will judge man because of his sins; And ones responce to me was "my god is loving and will forgive me of my sins because I'm human and he made me that way.."

Is that not a form of creating your own god to fit your own belief?

Okay, many people do this same thing, they take a certain Scripture they like and dismiss all the others and in the end they come up with a god that they have created in their own mind. Scriptures tells us many times over that Christ is God. If you would like to know more from the Greek which I also speak, read and write. Please by all means PM me because this is IMPORTANT.. Your Salvation "could" depend on it.

Atone
Great post.. I am also glad you see that Salvation is at stake here..
I don't like to question anybodies salvation, but I also am not one to love people to hell. I know that God is going to save whom he will save, but we are Gods tools and we must do what God has called us to do.
Blessings,
Javier

 

[mutzrein]

But hang on. It was THIS person who was making the accusation - not ALLLLLLL. And then you told him he did nothing wrong. Now brother, did you err? In which case I can accept that . . . but if you didn't, please explain the apparent about face?

I did not come here to accuse anyone of anything. I asked that we should not tell someone if they are born again or not. I have not the power or the authorithy from God to accuse a man for how he has acted with you on this matter. All I can ask is that we watch what we say and that goes for ALLLL

All I'm asking is, did you err because it sounds like a backdown?

You didn't ask. You said, "Whoa.... Listen we are not here to tell someone if they are born again or not. That is between that person and God. We are told to examine the fruit of their spirit. But no one should say "you are" or "your not" born again."

That sounds to me like a statement made by a MOD telling them what they can and can't do. And then you said to the very person who makes these accusations that he didn't do anything wrong.

So, on the one hand you tell ALLLL what not to do. And then you turn around and tell the very person who was doing what you said not to, that it was OK.

What is going on here coz it sounds like double speak :-?

Did you err?

 

[Solo]

But hang on. It was THIS person who was making the accusation - not ALLLLLLL. And then you told him he did nothing wrong. Now brother, did you err? In which case I can accept that . . . but if you didn't, please explain the apparent about face?

I did not come here to accuse anyone of anything. I asked that we should not tell someone if they are born again or not. I have not the power or the authorithy from God to accuse a man for how he has acted with you on this matter. All I can ask is that we watch what we say and that goes for ALLLL

All I'm asking is, did you err because it sounds like a backdown?

You didn't ask. You said, "Whoa.... Listen we are not here to tell someone if they are born again or not. That is between that person and God. We are told to examine the fruit of their spirit. But no one should say "you are" or "your not" born again."

That sounds to me like a statement made by a MOD telling them what they can and can't do. And then you said to the very person who makes these accusations that he didn't do anything wrong.

So, on the one hand you tell ALLLL what not to do. And then you turn around and tell the very person who was doing what you said not to, that it was OK.

What is going on here coz it sounds like double speak :-?

Did you err?

From my experience with you, I know that you only read what you want to read, and omit massive amounts of pertinent information. I do not know whether this is on purpose, or an accidental disregard; but many times you have been shown in the scriptures where Jesus is God, and at no time have you taken the scriptures shown, and explained in a manner of course why you disregard such scriptures. I was asked what gave evidence of one who had the spirit of antichrist, and I supplied the thread with the fact that those that deny that Jesus is God in the flesh are antichrist according to 1 John. I only point out your unbelief for two reasons. First so that you can examine yourself to validate whether you have actually been born again, and to protect others from a false teaching that Jesus is not God. To point out that one member is not born again because of a false teaching that is discerned spiritually through the Word of God, is more of a help to that member, than to disregard and ignore their position.

Here is the portion of the post that Atonement has posted earlier that you missed:

• "All I'm saying here is that we need to be careful not to accuse any man of not being born again; Unless they come out and tell us they don't believe Jesus is God, don't believe the Bible, and the cross is foolish.."

Know this, that my concern of your position in Christ Jesus as a born again believer has nothing to do with whether I am right or wrong, but it has everything to do with your position as an unbeliever. Until you are born again, you will not know Jesus Christ as God.

I pray for your salvation, and the Holy Spirit's teaching for your benefit, not mine. I pray for you to be able to humble yourself to the point of being teachable by God almighty in the whole counsel of God, not as an enemy, but as a believer in Jesus Christ. Until you and I have the common bond of being born again knowing God the Father and Jesus Christ his Son in their revealed fullness, there will be no unity.