quote="Solo"]Imagican,
Let's reason together without getting all out of sorts. It appears that you have a difficult time discussing this topic in order to receive the teaching that God has for you to learn, or to teach what God would have you teach. The discussion is not whether Jesus is the Son of God or not, for we agree that Jesus is the Son of God. Where we disagree is that Jesus is God.
My position is that anyone who denies that Jesus is God can not be born again, and I get this from the scripture in 1 John that says:
- 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,
And please point out ANY post I have EVER made indicating that Christ 'did NOT' come in the flesh. I readily admit and OPENLY that Chrsit DID come in the flesh. It's your assertion that Christ IS God that I have denied. The statement contained in the scripture above offers NO SUCH ASSERTION. That is what YOU have chosen to 'read into it'.
whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3
Therefore, it is a concern of mine that you have not been born again and need salvation. If my pointing out to you that Jesus is God wakes you up then praise God.
I appreciate your concern Solo and I mean that most sincere. But I feel compelled to offer that I share the 'same' concern for you. For it is NOT I that hs chosen to 'create' a God in Jesus Christ, I simply follow the Word as I am led. I am PLENTY capable of following God THROUGH His Son without a 'church' TELLING me that I MUST FOLLOW THEIR TEACHINGS regardless of them being CONTRARY to The Word.
Now, let us take my last post, and you can answer it point by point as I direct your previous opinions on the stated matters.
In your post you made the following assertion:
Imagican said:
Solo,
I thought we had 'been through this' before. ONLY in the 'minds' of those that CHOOSE to 'believe' that the word 'Word' IS Jesus Christ. Now, IF THIS WERE TRUE, WHY was the word Word USED. If the Word IS Jesus Christ WHY would John USE this WORD? Your belief, and those that believe as you, in their understanding of these lines of scripture is obviously WRONG. This is NOT how John would OFFER such an IMPORTANT piece of understanding. Why so 'cryptic' IF this is what these lines TRULY mean?
As I have suggested in the past on numerous posts. Take away the CAPITAL W. Read it again. For when this was written there WERE NO CAPITAL LETTERS. So, read it 'AS IT WAS MEANT TO BE WRITTEN and one quickly sees that the Word IS nothing OTHER THAN THE WORD OF GOD. NO, NOT CHRIST. For AFTER we read of the WORD OF GOD it is ONLY THEN that the WORD BECAME FLESH. The Word refered to is nothing other than the word of God. Capitalized by those that 'wished' to 'turn Christ INTO GOD'. Those that wished to carve statues of Christ and worship THEM AS God.
Let me answer your statement a little clearer than I did the last time.
Basicly, your point concerning the Word of God, is that the Word of God is nothing more than just the word of God, an inanimate action of speaking; not a person, but a verbal utterance; and that word became flesh.
NO Solo, not only do you 'choose' to 'see' what you will in The Word, you obvious take the same aproach to my postings. NO, I have NOT asserted that the Word was/is NOTHING MORE than the 'word of God'. I have offered that the word WAS the word of God and THEN The Word became FLESH. You obviously ignored my suggestion of reading the first chapter of John WITHOUT the capital W. I assert NOTHING other than what is contained in The Word. I must admit that MY understanding may NOT agree with yours, but that comes as NO surprise for MY understanding does NOT agree with MOST of what the churches teach.
The scripture clearly identifies that the Word of God is a person in Revelation 19.
And ONCE the Word became it DID become a 'person' in a sense. But MUCH more important than using The Word as 'a name' is understanding that The Word is more of a 'concept', (what has been offered us of God's understanding), than simply the 'name of a person'. For we have been receiving the Word through the prophets for thousands of years BEFORE Christ was revealed.
Please note:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and
his name is called The Word of God. Revelation 19:11-13
Again, see above.
John reveals to us that this person, the Word, existed prior to the physical incarnation when Mary gave birth to Jesus. John records the Word before the incarnation in John 1:1-14, and after the incarnation in Revelation 19:11-13. John reveals that the Word was in the beginning, the Word was with God, the Word was God, the same was in the beginning with God. We can give this a mathematical equation.
The Word in the beginning + God = God = The Word in the beginning with God
Yeah yeah yeah. More of 'man' thinking rather than what we HAVE been offered. I have NEVER seen mathematical equations used ANY WHERE in scipture. So for you to compare God and His Son to an ice cube, or an equation, or an egg just goes to show how trivial one is able to 'think' of God and His Son. Won't catch me there Solo and I would suggest that instead of listening to 'others' that will more than willingly lead you astray for 'their OWN' sakes, I would suggest that The Word is sufficient IN ITSELF.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Now, as I have offered BEFORE, there WERE NO capital letters in the original language. Take them away here and what do we read? The WORD IS The Word of God. So, There WAS the Word IN THE BEGINNING for we KNOW that God SPOKE existence into being. What did HE speak? The Word of God. And ALSO, your assertion here that 'All things were made by him' is that the 'him' IS The Word or Christ. Pure speculation once again. For what I read is that it is 'as likely' that this sentence refers NOT to The Word, but to God Himself.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
What we have is evidence that God has offered 'life', (light), and understanding from the beginning of creation yet His creation would NOT accept Him. John was sent BY GOD to witness this. To bring men to repentance. He was NOT ONLY sent as witness to Jesus Christ for John did NOT baptise in the name of Christ but to repentance. John was not three sentences old when Christ came. John was the age of Christ and had been preaching repentance for MORE that the day that we read about.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is NOT Christ being spoken of here, my frienda, This IS GOD. For what do we have here AFTER reading about the relationship between God and man IS; that THEN:......
14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1-14
And THIS IS where 'truth' lies. For Christ Himself stated OVER AND OVER that the WORDS that He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM BY THE FATHER. So, The Word of God DID become flesh-Christ IS the ONLY begotten of the Father.
I also gave this scripture to which you did not reply. This scripture is plain about God being "manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and recieved up into glory. Jesus is God.
More conjecture on YOUR part rather than the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. God has been among us 'since the beginning. And, MOST knew Him NOT. God is the LIGHT and this SAME light shines through His Son and those that have accepted this light. And this EXISTED LONG BEFORE CHRIST was manifest in the flesh. Enoch walked with God. Noah walked with God. There have been MANY that have accepted the LIGHT LONG BEFORE Christ was needed to DIE FOR THEM. What you are confused about is that you believe that ONE MUST HAVE accepted Christ to be 'saved'. And this IS true, so long as you understand what 'being saved' means. There have been MANY throughout the ages that NEEDED NO SAVING. For these loved God and obeyed Him WITHOUT there needing to be a SACRIFICE of The Son. I know, I know, the church that you attend doesn't teach this so IT HAS TO BE WRONG. So be it Solo.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
God WAS manifest in the flesh THROUGH HIS SON. I am a manifestation of my father as well. BUT, I am NOT my FATHER.
Imagican said:
Now, REGARDLESS of Johns opening statements. Yes, Christ WAS the Son of God PREVIOUS to His becoming flesh.
The next opportunity to teach us what the scriptures say about the Word being the Son before Jesus' birth. I do not read anything in scripture that Jesus is the Son of God until he became the incarnate Word born of the virgin Mary. Perhaps you have scripture that shows us where Jesus is God's Son in heaven prior to his birth.
ALL scripture stating WHO Christ IS is scripture offering what you ask. Christ is and has ALWAYS been the Son of God. You just refuse to 'understand it'. For to accept the 'truth' means one must accept that Christ was CREATED BY GOD. EXACTLY When, we do not know. For it is NOT needed that we know this EXACT 'time'. But that Christ existed BEFORE man AS the Son of God is OBVIOUS through scripture.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
Yes, these three ARE ONE in that they bear the SAME RECORD. They are in TOTAL AGREEMENT AS ONE.
Imagican said:
Yes, Christ was instrumental in the Creation of this Earth and it's inhabitants. Before Abraham, CHRIST WAS. But NO, that does NOT prove that Christ IS God. It doesn't even indicate such. There were angels in heaven previous to man. There was EVEN Satan before man. Neither of these would be considered God Himself even though these were MOST likely created BY GOD. Each a 'part' of God but not a single one of them able to 'claim' to BE God.
MEC
Now that we have gotten through the Word of God portion, perhaps we can get answers to each other on what we believe the scriptures teach about the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus, creating ALL things including the angels, Lucifer(satan), and all other beings in heaven.
NOPE. There WILL be no agreement here. For Christ did NOT create EVERYTHING as you would have it. Christ was in existence when all WE can experience was created. But previous to His creation we know NOT what existed. What crass and prideful people that would believe that THEY are SO important that EVERYTHING revolves around THEM. What's more important Solo, God or US? What's more important Solo, HEAVEN or Earth? So many choose to THINK that it's ALL about US. We have NO reason to believe such arrogant ideas. We do NOT know if there has been created another scenario EXACTLY as this one or whether it's been done a BILLION TIMES. And this is NOT something that God has chosen to reveal to us at this time. As far as we know this Earth has been RE-CREATED hundreds or even BILLIONS of times before. We simply DON'T know. So, with this in mind, understand that when the Bible refers to 'in the beginning' that is in reference to the beginning of WHAT WE KNOW. It has no bearing on the ACTUAL 'beginning' according to GOD and HEAVEN. The heavens are NOT Heaven ITSELF.
16 For by him were
all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:16-17
See above. But, as an addition: Please note, For by him were all things created that are IN heaven, and are IN the earth. There is NO mention about angels or anything of the sort. And YES Christ DID exist before what we KNOW OF existed. What about what we DON'T know about? That is MY POINT EXACTLY. You offer that; EVERYTHING PERIOD, I KNOW better than this and this is NOT what is STATED IN THE WORD. This is what YOU want it to mean.
In Revelation John records that the four beasts do not rest day or night and are continually saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come". Who is to come? Jesus is to come. The twenty-four elders fall down and worship the Lord God Almighty saying, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created".
8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying,
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 3:8-11
Notice what Paul says in Colossians.
16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:16-17
Obviously this is utter misinterpretation or the Bible is NOT truth. For IT IS stated that God IS GREATER than Christ. How can this BE if what your understanding of the above IS truth? So, please explain how your interpretation that THIS IS SAYING that Jesus IS God is POSSIBLE when we KNOW that God IS greater than Christ. I look forward to your response.
And.....
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come,
the Almighty. Revelation 1:8[/quote]
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND THROUGH THE SON OF GOD WE CAN COME TO THE FATHER IN HEAVEN FOR GOD PREPARED A WAY THAT HE, THROUGH HIS LOVE, WOULD TAKE ON THE FORM OF MAN, AND DIE ON A CROSS, SO THAT ETERNAL LIFE COULD BE GIVEN AS A FREE GIFT TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. JESUS IS GOD IN THE FLESH.
What you have offered is MORE opinion and speculation than ANYTHING else.
Questions for YOU Solo, Where will God BE when Christ returns as the KING of this Earth? Where will God be when Christ IS our mediator? WHO will be our final judge Solo?
So, I guess Mary truly IS the Mother of God, in your opinion? For your statement above states EXACTLY that. Is she the ‘queen of Heaven’ as well?
And I guess this explains PERFECTLY how Christ was able to make such statements as; ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’. Or, ‘My Father, why hath thou forsaken ME’. I suppose that He was simply ‘talking to Himself’? And I guess He was lying when He stated that ONLY the Father HIMSELF' knew the 'time' of His return.
Michael[/quote]
I have heard all this before Solo. NOTHING NEW. AS a matter of FACT, you and I have been over these points on NUMEROUS occasions. I offer WHAT YOU ASK, (answers to your questions), and then you come back and state something like; 'You are just lost and have NOT been born again'. I KNOW what I KNOW and that is that God EXISTS and SO DOES HIS SON. This I KNOW. That they are 'the same' I DO NOT KNOW AND COULDN'T KNOW THEM WITHOUT THIS KNOWLEDGE. IN this WE AGREE. And, as I offered before. PLEASE, my brother, DON'T be SO quick to offer judgement of that which YOU CANNOT KNOW. I plead with you for YOUR sake. I can bare ANYTHING that you offer towards ME. But what you offer is judgement that YOU are NOT given the authority to make. And HOW you judge OTHERS, IS how YOU WILL BE JUDGED.
MEC
