Only ONE TRUE GOD.

[Solo]

(Continued from Previous Post)

I also gave this scripture to which you did not reply. This scripture is plain about God being "manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and recieved up into glory. Jesus is God.

More conjecture on YOUR part rather than the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. God has been among us 'since the beginning. And, MOST knew Him NOT. God is the LIGHT and this SAME light shines through His Son and those that have accepted this light. And this EXISTED LONG BEFORE CHRIST was manifest in the flesh. Enoch walked with God. Noah walked with God. There have been MANY that have accepted the LIGHT LONG BEFORE Christ was needed to DIE FOR THEM. What you are confused about is that you believe that ONE MUST HAVE accepted Christ to be 'saved'. And this IS true, so long as you understand what 'being saved' means. There have been MANY throughout the ages that NEEDED NO SAVING. For these loved God and obeyed Him WITHOUT there needing to be a SACRIFICE of The Son. I know, I know, the church that you attend doesn't teach this so IT HAS TO BE WRONG. So be it Solo.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

God WAS manifest in the flesh THROUGH HIS SON. I am a manifestation of my father as well. BUT, I am NOT my FATHER.

Now, REGARDLESS of Johns opening statements. Yes, Christ WAS the Son of God PREVIOUS to His becoming flesh.

The next opportunity to teach us what the scriptures say about the Word being the Son before Jesus' birth. I do not read anything in scripture that Jesus is the Son of God until he became the incarnate Word born of the virgin Mary. Perhaps you have scripture that shows us where Jesus is God's Son in heaven prior to his birth.

ALL scripture stating WHO Christ IS is scripture offering what you ask. Christ is and has ALWAYS been the Son of God. You just refuse to 'understand it'. For to accept the 'truth' means one must accept that Christ was CREATED BY GOD. EXACTLY When, we do not know. For it is NOT needed that we know this EXACT 'time'. But that Christ existed BEFORE man AS the Son of God is OBVIOUS through scripture.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

Yes, these three ARE ONE in that they bear the SAME RECORD. They are in TOTAL AGREEMENT AS ONE.

Yes, Christ was instrumental in the Creation of this Earth and it's inhabitants. Before Abraham, CHRIST WAS. But NO, that does NOT prove that Christ IS God. It doesn't even indicate such. There were angels in heaven previous to man. There was EVEN Satan before man. Neither of these would be considered God Himself even though these were MOST likely created BY GOD. Each a 'part' of God but not a single one of them able to 'claim' to BE God.

MEC

Now that we have gotten through the Word of God portion, perhaps we can get answers to each other on what we believe the scriptures teach about the Word, the pre-incarnate Jesus, creating ALL things including the angels, Lucifer(satan), and all other beings in heaven.

NOPE. There WILL be no agreement here. For Christ did NOT create EVERYTHING as you would have it. Christ was in existence when all WE can experience was created. But previous to His creation we know NOT what existed. What crass and prideful people that would believe that THEY are SO important that EVERYTHING revolves around THEM. What's more important Solo, God or US? What's more important Solo, HEAVEN or Earth? So many choose to THINK that it's ALL about US. We have NO reason to believe such arrogant ideas. We do NOT know if there has been created another scenario EXACTLY as this one or whether it's been done a BILLION TIMES. And this is NOT something that God has chosen to reveal to us at this time. As far as we know this Earth has been RE-CREATED hundreds or even BILLIONS of times before. We simply DON'T know. So, with this in mind, understand that when the Bible refers to 'in the beginning' that is in reference to the beginning of WHAT WE KNOW. It has no bearing on the ACTUAL 'beginning' according to GOD and HEAVEN. The heavens are NOT Heaven ITSELF.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:16-17

See above. But, as an addition: Please note, For by him were all things created that are IN heaven, and are IN the earth. There is NO mention about angels or anything of the sort. And YES Christ DID exist before what we KNOW OF existed. What about what we DON'T know about? That is MY POINT EXACTLY. You offer that; EVERYTHING PERIOD, I KNOW better than this and this is NOT what is STATED IN THE WORD. This is what YOU want it to mean.

In Revelation John records that the four beasts do not rest day or night and are continually saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come". Who is to come? Jesus is to come. The twenty-four elders fall down and worship the Lord God Almighty saying, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created".

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 3:8-11

Notice what Paul says in Colossians.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Colossians 1:16-17

Obviously this is utter misinterpretation or the Bible is NOT truth. For IT IS stated that God IS GREATER than Christ. How can this BE if what your understanding of the above IS truth? So, please explain how your interpretation that THIS IS SAYING that Jesus IS God is POSSIBLE when we KNOW that God IS greater than Christ. I look forward to your response.

And.....

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8


JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD, AND THROUGH THE SON OF GOD WE CAN COME TO THE FATHER IN HEAVEN FOR GOD PREPARED A WAY THAT HE, THROUGH HIS LOVE, WOULD TAKE ON THE FORM OF MAN, AND DIE ON A CROSS, SO THAT ETERNAL LIFE COULD BE GIVEN AS A FREE GIFT TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. JESUS IS GOD IN THE FLESH.

What you have offered is MORE opinion and speculation than ANYTHING else.

Questions for YOU Solo, Where will God BE when Christ returns as the KING of this Earth? Where will God be when Christ IS our mediator? WHO will be our final judge Solo?

So, I guess Mary truly IS the Mother of God, in your opinion? For your statement above states EXACTLY that. Is she the ‘queen of Heaven’ as well?

And I guess this explains PERFECTLY how Christ was able to make such statements as; ‘Father forgive them for they know not what they do’. Or, ‘My Father, why hath thou forsaken ME’. I suppose that He was simply ‘talking to Himself’? And I guess He was lying when He stated that ONLY the Father HIMSELF' knew the 'time' of His return.

I have heard all this before Solo. NOTHING NEW. AS a matter of FACT, you and I have been over these points on NUMEROUS occasions. I offer WHAT YOU ASK, (answers to your questions), and then you come back and state something like; 'You are just lost and have NOT been born again'. I KNOW what I KNOW and that is that God EXISTS and SO DOES HIS SON. This I KNOW. That they are 'the same' I DO NOT KNOW AND COULDN'T KNOW THEM WITHOUT THIS KNOWLEDGE. IN this WE AGREE. And, as I offered before. PLEASE, my brother, DON'T be SO quick to offer judgement of that which YOU CANNOT KNOW. I plead with you for YOUR sake. I can bare ANYTHING that you offer towards ME. But what you offer is judgement that YOU are NOT given the authority to make. And HOW you judge OTHERS, IS how YOU WILL BE JUDGED.


MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo - I'm doing a bit of catch-up here and have had to go back a few posts

I posted an answer to your query of Atonement on this thread on Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:44 pm .

 

[Vic C.]

First I will structure Imagican's answers in a format that will make the reading easier and understanding of points made. (I will split this post up due to its size.)

Excellent. I couldn't figure out who 'said' what in his post.

 

[Imagican]

Thank you Solo. I WAS a long post and I had a 'long day' yesterday. Wanted to get the post in and did the 'best that I could' at the time. Thanks again.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Nice post Mutz. I too find it amazing that those that will live by 'man made doctrine' will insist that OTHERS MUST do the 'same' or they CANNOT be 'accepted'. Yet we are PLAINLY shown that this is EXACTLY what was happening in Israel at the time of Christ. And we have the words of Christ Himself explaining that these were MORE interested in following EACH OTHER than God. Even when offered the Word of God BY HIS SON, they STILL chose each other over The Son of God, or even GOD HIMSELF. Modern Pharasees are what we have here that are MORE interested in following 'their will' than that of The Father through His Son. It WILL be a 'falling away' from the 'TRUTH'. Plain and simple. For we KNOW that there WILL be those that will openly follow the system of the anti-Christ and do so OPENLY. Perhaps Most have already made their 'choice'.

And what 'scripture' do I USE? Here ya go:

John 16:1-3

1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Now, are we to believe that 'things have gotten ANY better'? The WORLD accepts it's own and rejects that which IS the TRUTH. This has NOT changed. Only gotten WORSE. For we NEAR the time of the end of this planet as we know it and there MUST be an 'ushering in' of anti-Christ. For the WORLD to accept this spirit, it MUST be the churches that 'usher it in'. Otherwise forty percent of this country alone would need be DESTROYED in order for it to happen. That ISN'T 'how'it's going to happen for there WILL be a 'falling away' FIRST. And this 'falling away' will NOT be 'away from the churches'. In fact, the churches are GROWING, NOT shrinking. Therefore I warn ANY that may have a sincere desire for the 'TRUTH' to abandon the teachings of the churches that ARE NOT of God.

So much 'self' and so little love of 'others'. It sickens God and must truly be repugnant to Christ. For one to offer themselves as sacrifice for others only to have this sacrifice 'rejected'. It's gotta hurt folks. We have the words explaining that it IS THESE that Christ will 'spew out of his mouth'. These that believe that they are SO 'self-righteous'. Talking up a 'good game' but offering little that others SHOULD follow. Neither hot or cold. Living in and FOR the world yet claiming Christ AS their Savior, (or EVEN their very God).

These words are not to judge, my brothers and sisters, but to TEACH. Perhaps there MAY be a remnant that 'choose' THE truth over MAN'S truth. And hopefully there may be a 'few' whose eyes have NOT been 'sealed shut'.

Blessings my brothers and sisters.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Wow
Lots and Lots to read.
Mec
With all due respect, yOU have not answered any of my questions.
I have answered all the questions we disagree on including all of Romans Chapter 5
The questions I have not answered are the ones I agree with you with you on.
I Agree with you that Jesus is the Son of God. You have been trying to prove something that I whole hardly believe as well as Solo and he stated as much.
So that is not the issue.
The Issue is that is Jesus is both the Son of God and God.. YES

There are dozens and dozens ov verses through out the whole counsel of God that prove Jesus is God, but your blind to them.

Here are my three questions again that you have not ansered. Answer them if you choose. If you choose not to, thats OK, But I pray that you will consider them.

Explain Gen 1:1 to me..
Explain 2 PET 1:1 to me
Explain to me who the Angel of the Lord is in Judges 6

Go back and look at my previous post to see my explanations.
Blessings,
Javier

 

[Imagican]

Explain Genesis 1:1 to me.

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

What would you like explained here? That GOD created THE HEAVEN and the earth? Ok, will do my best. I KNOW what you are NOT wanting to hear so I guess that means that I know what 'you believe'. So.........
God DID create Heaven and The earth. That IS 'the beginning'.

Explain 2 Peter 1:1 to me

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Too simple: this means EXACTLY what IS stated: 1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and, (what you have decided is that this statement 'means' God our Savior Jesus Christ. What you ignore is that this states God AND our Savior Jesus Christ), our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Not ONE ENTITY in TWO parts, but TWO distinct entities. God-THE FATHER, And Christ-The Son of God.

Explain to me who the Angel of the Lord is in Judges 6:1

J, I am not sure IF the angel of the Lord HAD a 'name' other than what has been offered. You obviously believe this to be Jesus Christ. There is NO indication to me that this is so. Who were the 'angel-S' sent to Abraham? Note that this IS plural. Mechizedek, many state that THIS was Christ. I have NO such information to make such an assumption. Matter of fact, the information that we HAVE been given disputes this belief.

I thought I already ansered in reply to your indication that you have accepted the 'teachings' of men and the 'churches' concerning such matters. And that I DO NOT hold such views.

Now, your questions have BEEN answered. Now, I gotta couple for you. Who was speaking as the Spirit lit upon Jesus upon his Baptism?

WHO was Christ speaking to when He stated, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do'? Who was Christ speaking to when He asked, "My Father, why hath thou forsaken ME"? And exactly what did Christ mean when He stated, 'ONLY the Father Himself knows' when refering to the time of His return? And what does it MEAN for God to 'be greater' than Christ? Chew over these and when you feel compelled, by all means, I am awaiting your response. And gotta a couple more questions when you are through with these.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And j, let me add this:

You seem to think that the representative of God IS God IF those that offer reply CALL this representative God or Lord or whatever. WRONG. To take what 'others' say MUST be taken IN CONTEXT. That means that one MUST accept the FACT that PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE. And ignorance does NOT make ANYTHING TRUE. There have been many that have chosen to worship WATER AS A GOD. That does NOT make it so. When Christ was accused of being the 'son of Satan', the STATEMENT that these made does NOT MAKE IT SO. But, we also have the deciple that called Christ 'Good Master' and WHAT was His answer to THIS?

MEC

 

[Solo]

Imagican,
Who is the Alpha and Omega?

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:8-18

 

[jgredline]

Explain Genesis 1:1 to me.

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

What would you like explained here? That GOD created THE HEAVEN and the earth? Ok, will do my best. I KNOW what you are NOT wanting to hear so I guess that means that I know what 'you believe'. So.........
God DID create Heaven and The earth. That IS 'the beginning'.


Mec
This is a case where the English translations do us no favors. They simply miss the Rich Hebrew meanings of the words. This is what the passage means and what is stated in the biblical Hebrew it was written in.
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In ch. 1 the focus is on the creation of the material world-the heavens and the earth. God: This standard Hebrew term for deity, Elohim, is in the form called the plural of majesty or the plural of intensity, it is a plural noun used with a singular subject.. In contrast to the ordinary plural (gods), this plural means "the fullness of deity" or "God-very God." Even though the word for God is plural, the verb for created is singular. It means "to fashion anew." This oft-used word in the Bible always has God as its subject.
Does this make sense? If you don’t understand it let me know or I am sure there are others that can explain it as well.




Explain 2 Peter 1:1 to me

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Too simple: this means EXACTLY what IS stated: 1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and, (what you have decided is that this statement 'means' God our Savior Jesus Christ. What you ignore is that this states God AND our Savior Jesus Christ), our Saviour Jesus Christ:
Not ONE ENTITY in TWO parts, but TWO distinct entities. God-THE FATHER, And Christ-The Son of God.


The KJV translation is not correct. All the other modern translations have it right
This is what it reads in the Greek
2 peter 1:1
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Unlike John 1:1 there is a definate article in the above verse so there is no disputing that Peter is refering to Jesus as GOD...

του θεου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

Here we have the end of the verse. There is a definate article that is genative, Singular and masculine which is a personal pronoun that is Genitive plural followed by a conjunction that Goes to masculine, singular nouns..
So in the plural (meaning more than 1) you have both God and Jesus as equals.
Only the KJV bible that I could see has it wrong.


Explain to me who the Angel of the Lord is in Judges 6:1

J, I am not sure IF the angel of the Lord HAD a 'name' other than what has been offered. You obviously believe this to be Jesus Christ. There is NO indication to me that this is so. Who were the 'angel-S' sent to Abraham? Note that this IS plural. Mechizedek, many state that THIS was Christ. I have NO such information to make such an assumption. Matter of fact, the information that we HAVE been given disputes this belief.

I thought I already ansered in reply to your indication that you have accepted the 'teachings' of men and the 'churches' concerning such matters. And that I DO NOT hold such views.


When He appeared to Hagar, she recognized that she was in the presence of God; she referred to Him as “the-God-Who-Sees“ (Gen. 16:13).

While Hagar was in the desert at Shur, on the way to Egypt, the Angel of the Lord came to her. This was the Lord Jesus in one of His preincarnate appearances, known as a Christophany. He counseled her to return and submit to Sarai, and promised that her son would become head of a great nation. That promise, of course, is fulfilled in the Arab people. The words Return ... and submit have marked great turning points in the lives of many who have had dealings with God. Hagars exclamation in verse 13 might be paraphrased, You are a God who may be seen, for she said, Have I also here seen Him who sees me? She named the well Beer Lahai Roi (literally, well of the One who lives and sees me).

Speaking to Abraham on Mount Moriah, the Angel identified Himself as “the Lord †(?Heb.? YHWH , or Jehovah ; Gen. 22:13-19).

To offer Isaac was surely the supreme test of Abrahams faith. God had promised to give Abraham a numberless posterity through his son. Isaac could have been as much as twenty-five at this time, and he was unmarried. If Abraham slew him, how could the promise be fulfilled? According to Hebrews 11:19, Abraham believed that even if he slew his son, God would raise him from the dead. This faith was remarkable because there was no recorded case of resurrection up to this time in the worlds history. When Isaac asked, Where is the lamb?, his father replied, God will provide for Himself the lamb. This promise was not ultimately fulfilled by the ram of verse 13 but by the Lamb of God (John 1:29).

There are two outstanding symbols of Christ in this chapter. Isaac is the first: an only son, loved by his father, willing to do his fathers will, received back from the dead in a figure. The ram is the second: an innocent victim died as a substitute for another, its blood was shed, and it was a burnt offering wholly consumed for God. Someone has said that, in providing the ram as a substitute for Isaac, God spared Abrahams heart a pang He would not spare His own. The Angel of the Lord in verses 11 and 15, as in all the Old Testament, is the Lord Jesus Christ. Abraham named the place The-Lord-Will-Provide (Jehovah-jireh) (v. 14). This is one of the seven compound names for God in the OT . The others are:

Jehovah-RophekhaThe Lord who heals you(Ex. 15:26).

Jehovah-NissiThe Lord my banner(Ex. 17:8-15).

Jehovah-ShalomThe Lord our peace(Judg. 6:24).

Jehovah-RoiThe Lord my Shepherd(Ps. 23:1).

Jehovah-TsidkenuThe Lord our righteousness(Jer. 23:6).

Jehovah-ShammahThe Lord is present(Ezek. 48:35).

The Lord swore by Himself because He couldnt swear by anyone greater (Heb. 6:13). Gods promise here, confirmed by His oath, includes the blessing of the Gentile nations through Christ (see Gal. 3:16). In verse 17c God adds to the already vast blessing promised: Abrahams seed would possess the gate of his enemies. This means that his descendants would occupy the place of authority over those who would oppose them. The capture of the city gate meant the fall of the city itself

Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).

The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.

When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).

And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

At the burning bush, it was the “Angel of the Lord †who appeared (Ex. 3:2), but Moses “hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God†(Ex. 3:6).

The Lord appeared to him in a bush that burned with fire but ... was not consumed. The bush suggests the glory of God, before which he was told to stand with unshod feet. It might also foreshadow Jehovahs dwelling in the midst of His people without their being consumed. The word holy occurs here for the first time in the Bible. By removing his sandals, Moses acknowledged that the place was holy.God reassures Moses that He is the God of his forefathers Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. So the Angel of the Lord was the Pre-incarnite Jesus Christ.

The Lord who went before Israel in a pillar of cloud (Ex. 13:21) was none other than the Angel of God†(Ex. 14:19).

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of cloud to lead the way, and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so as to go by day and night.

Exodus 14:19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them.

Clearly the LORD and the Angel of God are both in the same.

Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).

Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.

Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."

Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."

I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.

The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).

Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..

When Jacob struggled with the Angel, he struggled with God (Hos. 12:3, 4).

He took his brother by the heel in the womb, And in his strength he struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; He wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, And there He spoke to us--

These are convincing proofs that when the Angel of the Lord is referred to in the OT, the reference is to deity.



John F. Walvoord gives four arguments to support this:

(a) The Second Person is the Visible God of the New Testament.

(b) The Angel of Jehovah of the Old Testament No Longer Appears after the Incarnation of Christ.

(c) Both the Angel of Jehovah and Christ Are Sent by the Father.

(d) The Angel of Jehovah Could Not Be Either the Father Or the Holy Spirit. As for the fourth evidence, Walvoord goes on to explain that the Father and the Spirit are invisible to man and both have the attribute of immateriality.

He concludes, There is not a single valid reason to deny that the Angel of Jehovah is the Second Person, every known fact pointing to His identification as the Christ of the New Testament.

As the Angel of Jehovah, Christ is distinguished from other angels in that He is uncreated. The words translated Angel in both Testaments mean “messengerâ€Â; He is the Messenger of Jehovah.



Now, your questions have BEEN answered. Now, I gotta couple for you. Who was speaking as the Spirit lit upon Jesus upon his Baptism?
God the Father. The first person of the God head


WHO was Christ speaking to when He stated, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do'? Who was Christ speaking to when He asked, "My Father, why hath thou forsaken ME"?
God the Father. The first person of the God head


And exactly what did Christ mean when He stated, 'ONLY the Father Himself knows' when refering to the time of His return?
When Jesus walked the earth during his 33 years, he gave himself wholly to us as a man. In His humanity he did not know when he would return. Now that he is at the right hand of the father, you bet he knows when he is coming back. If Jesus did not give himself to us Wholly as man and God then his death would not have meant anything because then God would indeed be a puppet master pulling strings. His temptations would not have meant anything. Could Jesus have sinned? No because he is God. This is why Jesus said numerous times statements like this.

John 8: 28 Then Jesus said to them,"When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.

In the same context of this conversation he said earlier
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."
19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?"
Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."


And what does it MEAN for God to 'be greater' than Christ?
Mec
Right Jesus is the second part of the Godhead.
When Jesus comes back for his church and the scriptures are fully fulfilled, Jesus will take his rightful position in the Godhead.


Chew over these and when you feel compelled, by all means, I am awaiting your response. And gotta a couple more questions when you are through with these.

MEC

Mec
My asnswers are in blue.
Blessings,
Javier

 

[Imagican]

j,

Ah, so NOW we see where 'your' understanding 'comes from'. I get it.


These are convincing proofs that when the Angel of the Lord is referred to in the OT, the reference is to deity.


John F. Walvoord gives four arguments to support this:

(a) The Second Person is the Visible God of the New Testament.

OPINION

(b) The Angel of Jehovah of the Old Testament No Longer Appears after the Incarnation of Christ.

That is SUCH a PROFOUND STATEMENT. For there is little written much more than a hundred years AFTER the Incarnation of Christ. Doesn't seem real necessary for an angel to be mentioned again since there is so little offered AFTER but a hundred years after Christ's death. My point? Look back and make an effort to understand the 'time periods between these appearances that you mention. Sometimes this did NOT take place for HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of years. And there was NEED of God to send angels PREVIOUS to our reconcilement.

Now, you mention these instances where you 'believe' the angels mentioned were Christ HIMSELF. I seem to remember a 'story' about Abraham being visisted by ANGEL(S). Was ONE of these Christ Himself? And WHO was the other? Or were these two actually ONE AND THE SAME, yet in TWO separate bodies? A 'twinity' of sorts?

(c) Both the Angel of Jehovah and Christ Are Sent by the Father.

Ah, yeah. MOST communication between God and man was accomplished through HIS ANGELS. And we are also told that MANY have been visisted BY ANGELS unaware. Are these too Jesus Christ?

(d) The Angel of Jehovah Could Not Be Either the Father Or the Holy Spirit. As for the fourth evidence, Walvoord goes on to explain that the Father and the Spirit are invisible to man and both have the attribute of immateriality.

Why not? If one can create a 'God' of Christ, why not of the 'other' angels as well. For wouldn't ANYTHING that God has created be a 'part of God' as well?

Ok, but WHAT about the 'other angels' that we KNOW exist/ed? Not possible that the writer of these words could be TOTALLY mistaken and these mentioned ARE angels that have NO bearing on 'an appearance' of Christ?

He concludes, There is not a single valid reason to deny that the Angel of Jehovah is the Second Person, every known fact pointing to His identification as the Christ of the New Testament.

More PURE SPECULATION, and ONE valid REASON is simply THAT. Seems as though if the 'thoughts' of this man were IN ANY WAY valid, scripture would have been a 'bit' clearer. One is left here with NOTHING but the desire to 'guess' this into being. Not a very valid way to PROVE anything.

So, what 'I' see here is 'a man' choosing to 'see' things as he has offered but doing so on 'his OWN accord' rather than through anything 'insprired' of God. Much like 'the purpose driven life'. Many have lauded this 'book' and the churches have embraced it as if they would the Bible itself. But the TRUTH is that it is NOTHING other than words of 'a man' offering 'HIS' opinion. Not very sound theology to base ones relationship on speculation offered by 'another man'. I choose, instead, to follow 'The Spirit' in it's revealing what is MEANT to be revealed to ME. For it is MY relationship with God through His Son that I have been commanded to nurture. NOT some 'other' doctrine offered by men.

As the Angel of Jehovah, Christ is distinguished from other angels in that He is uncreated. The words translated Angel in both Testaments mean “messengerâ€Â; He is the Messenger of Jehovah.

And WHERE is THIS information obtained? I don't recall EVER reading ANYTHING of the sort except in this that you have offered of 'a man'. Simply using the word 'messenger' in NO way indicates being 'created' or NOT. And aren't ALL angels ANGELS OF JEHOVAH?

j, I must admit that you have certainly 'tried' to offer proof of your belief. The problem lies in that what YOU offer is NOTHING other than what 'someONE' has offered you. And from MY understanding there is NO validity in these words except in the mind of the 'person' that created them and those that are willing to accept them. For these offerings are vague and speculative AT BEST. Guesswork is a pretty shaky means of discerning scripture. This opens up the POSSIBLITY of ANYTHING being offered 'as' the word. As we have 'seen', there have been many offering such 'guesswork' and even those that are willing to follow such. David Koresh, Jim Jones, Russell, etc,,,,,,,,,,The list goes ON and ON. And j, I fault you NOT for seeking answers, but beware of 'where' you choose to 'find them'.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
90% of Everything I have offered to you comes from my own interpretation of the Bible. This comes from studing and learning Greek. (2 1/2 years) and studing entry level biblical Hebrew. Does this make me an expert? NO, but it gives me a great advantage in studing the Word of God. I have also taken classes in Hermenutics which is something that if you took, you would quickly come to the understanding of how wrong YOUR interpretations are..
Unlike you I study and use the tools that are available to me.

Now you took what I said and wrote about the Angel of the Lord out of context again.

John F Walvord only wrote what I said he wrote. I was giving him credit for such great arguments..

I noticed you did not pick apart my inerpretation oF GEN 1:1. or 2 per 1:1

You only picked on the part you felt you could use a play on words to get around. This is typical of what people do when they don't have answers and are challenged..

mec
The biggest problem that In my opinion you have is that you feel you need to know the mind of God. That you need to have a full understanding of things so that Faith is not required. This my friend is never going to happen.
No man has known or will ever know the mind of God. We will not even know the mind of God when we are in heaven.

Like I said in an earlier post. I have only asked you a few things. Three things really. With all three things you have had problems with. The whole bible from GEN to Rev is all about Jesus the son of God ''WHO IS GOD''..
There has been many, many verses presented to you confirming the deity Of Jesus and yet you choose to ignore them. You don't even try and rebut them. Why, because your standing on sand.

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

He Who has seen me has seen the father?

I mean I could go on and on. But what you offer is proof that Jesus is the Son of God which I agree with.

Jesus himself said that He is the '' I AM''

You really need to swallow your pride and come to a saving knowledge in Jesus Christ the GOD of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. The same God of the Apostles, The same God who died on the Cross and then rose on the Third day. The Jesus you believe in, is not this Jesus, its another Jesus..

Blessings and may you find the truth.
Javier

 

[Imagican]

Ok j, once again let me offer just a tad of 'my' understanding.

I can't say whether or not one can or can't KNOW God by 'believing' that Jesus IS God. I know that Jesus was SENT by God and that Jesus IS the Son of God. I do NOT KNOW that Jesus IS God.

Now, with these statements above, let me offer this: I KNOW what God has brought into my life. I KNOW God and I KNOW that it was THROUGH HIS SON that I began to develope a relationship WITH GOD. I am unaware of a relationship WITH The Son. I thank Christ and HAVE accepted Him into my heart, but my relationship IS with God.

Now, HOW do I KNOW. For I have had MANY miracles manifest in my life since my acceptance of Christ. I have had MUCH revealed that I was previously OBLIVIOUS to. And I refer to EVEN AFTER reading The WORD. I KNOW that God has wrought changes in my life that I was POWERLESS to alter myself. I have openly adimtted such, turned it over to God, and experienced HIS POWER to change that which I am UNABLE.

You will accuse me of having NO faith. j, THAT IS ALL I HAVE. For if not for the faith that God will provide, I probably wouldn't be here right now.

Understanding of the TRUTH has led me down the path that I have followed. The path of the past was MY OWN, revealed from him who I followed THEN. The path that I follow now is MUCH different than that of the past. For in the past all I knew was hate, anger, malice, strife, lonliness, sorrow, pride, etc.....................................................................

God has seen fit to offer me a NEW HEART. I UNDERSTAND what love means now. My language has been changed, and where I once held spite for most around me, I am NOW able to offer my love. I SEE things now that I was completely BLIND to before.

Now, do you have such a testimony? If so, then you too KNOW that I know what I am talking about. If not, then perhaps you too could benefit from what I have experienced.

I believe that you have and that is WHY I have offered what I have. Can't you see that what I offer is what I am Compelled to offer. That the words that I offer are not simply to disagree or argue, they are offered to 'teach'. What? That these 'man-made' doctrines mean LITTLE to God. What DOES matter to Him is our Faith and LOVE; for Him and for each other.

So, since I know what has taken place in my life, I know the relationship that I have with God, I KNOW that what you attempt to teach DOES'T even matter. For I have come to NO such conclusion from what HAS been revealed to me. And this revelation was NOT of man BUT OF GOD.

One simple question for you j, concerning man made doctrine; Do I HAVE to be baptised in water to be saved?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

He Who has seen me has seen the father?

I mean I could go on and on. But what you offer is proof that Jesus is the Son of God which I agree with.

Jesus himself said that He is the '' I AM''

Now in reply to these:

Both God AND Christ are able to offer 'I AM'. For God IS the I Am that He offered to Moses. And, Christ IS the I Am that He offered to His disciples. You understand this to mean that by Christ offering such is an OPEN ADMISSION that HE IS God. I do NOT accept this offering or understanding. For He did NOT simply state that I am THE, I AM, but simply stated that BEFORE Abraham, I Am. A pure indication that He came FROM God.

The SAME goes for the Alpha and Omega. Christ IS the Beginning of The Church. He IS the Beginning of the 'NEW Covenant'. He IS the Beginning of the END of Death. So, you see, He IS the beginning of much and He IS also the END of that which we know on this planet. When it is 'time', Christ WILL return and defeat the world as we know it. And He CERTAINLY IS the representative of God and able to offer such in statements such as these.

But we KNOW that God CANNOT be seen by the eyes of man in his present state, (the flesh). So, the CLOSEST thing to 'seeing' God WAS being able to 'see' The Son of God. Just as Christ offers that the words that he spoke were FROM God, so too was His creation. And He also stated that the words that He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIM OF THE FATHER. So, we see here an OBVIOUS admission from Christ Himself that HE IS NOT THE FATHER. And, with this in mind, we KNOW that the Father IS God. And once again, NOT the Catholic understanding of God The Father, but, God IS The Father. For there is ONLY ONE.

He who has 'seen' Christ HAS seen the REPRESENTATIVE OF The Father, sent by God to bring man back into His embrace. Christ and The Father ARE ONE in that they are BOTH in unison, in agreement, in understanding, in purpose towards man, in MANY THINGS they CERTAINLY ARE ONE. But, we also have that when a man leaves his family for a wife, these TWO BECOME ONE. Now, j, does this mean literally ONE, or ONE in the sense of LOVE? For THIS IS our 'perfect understanding' of which Paul offers. We CAN have a 'perfect understanding' of that which MATTERS MOST.

j, we kNOW that God IS love. And Christ IS His representative OF THIS LOVE. Offered to us to 'bring us BACK' to The Father THROUGH LOVE. As God commanded Abraham to sacrifice HIS SON in order to 'show his lOVE for God', is it EVEN CONCEIVABLE that He would offer ANY LESS to show His love for US? For God to 'take on' flesh and die means NOTHING compared to 'offering HIS SON' in OUR PLACE. His ONLY Begotten. That which was an ACTUAL PART of Himself. NO, not HIMSELF in entirety. For Christ's obedience was NOT to Himself, but to His Father, God. And this was ONLY possible through LOVE.

So, no matter how much that is able to be offered in defense of the man-made doctrine of 'trinity', it is NOTHING other than THAT. What IS doctrine of God is that He sent HIS SON to die for OUR SINS so that we can be reconciled back into his OPEN ARMS. Anything OTHER than this is NOT what has been offered through HIS WORD.

 

[Imagican]

We have been TOLD NOT to vere from the SIMPLICITY that IS Christ Jesus. To create this 'trinity' required a WHOLE set of complex ideas and understanding that even those that accept are UNABLE to understand. Is THIS the 'simplicity' that IS Chirst Jesus? Some doctrine that is SO complex that even those that accept it are unable to UNDERSTAND it?

Chew on that a bit, my brother. And there is NO pride offered here. Only understanding offered FROM ABOVE. That those of this world may NOT be able to understand or accept the 'truth' when offered is NO different than what has taken place on this planet for THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of years.

And MOST of the 'pride' that you refer to is NOT 'personal' pride, but well placed pride in the God that I worship WILLINGLY. For I AM VERY Proud of God and His Son who lives in me. You don't see Christ 'beating around the bush' when He offers that which IS TRUTH and what you mistake as 'personal pride' is nothing other than the 'same' feeling of confidence in the 'truth' that HE OFFERED as well. Would you so accuse Christ of 'personal pride'? Then why would you do so to your brother offering this SAME TRUTH?

Bless you, my brother

MEC

 

[Solo]

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

Please explain who the person is that is recorded as being the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last by the witness, John in the following verses (vs 8, vs 11, & vs 17). Please give a direct, straight forward answer, so to keep the post in a reasonable length. Thanks.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:8-18

 

[jgredline]

One simple question for you j, concerning man made doctrine; Do I HAVE to be baptised in water to be saved?

MEC

Mec
To answer your question. NO. Water baptizm will NOT save you. The thief on the cross was not baptized and was the first to see paradise.

As far my beliefs in Jesus as the Son of God who is God, the second part of the Godhead, that will never change because God has written this truth through the Holy Spirit unto my heart.

I can't believe you can't see that Jesus is God. :o

What is your view of the Holy Spirit? Do you see the Holy Spirit as God?

 

[mutzrein]

I noticed a comment that Atonement made in a thread that was essentially about him. Since it was about him, he chose to lock it. And fair enough too.

So, since this thread is about God I trust the same rules will apply. :wink:

 

[Vic C.]

You want God to lock it? :o

 

[Imagican]

Mec
To answer your question. NO. Water baptizm will NOT save you. The thief on the cross was not baptized and was the first to see paradise.

As far my beliefs in Jesus as the Son of God who is God, the second part of the Godhead, that will never change because God has written this truth through the Holy Spirit unto my heart.

I can't believe you can't see that Jesus is God. :o

What is your view of the Holy Spirit? Do you see the Holy Spirit as God?

j,

Nice one, my friend. What you have offered here IS TRUTH. There is MUCH more to it than the example offered, but I'm sure that you are aware of that as well.

I don't believe that it is NEEDED that I 'see' Christ AS God. For I KNOW that Christ LIVES within me and through Him I KNOW God. This IS what He testified to and I simply accept it AS OFFERED. I DO NOT need inventions of men to lead me to The Father. The SIMPLICITY that IS Christ Jesus IS enough for me. I place MY trust in God and KNOW that I have been offered 'truth' through His Son. His Son who PLAINLY stated that the words that He has offered WERE NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN HIIM by The Father. And I KNOW that The Father IS GOD.

I accept the Holy Spirit as a part of Christ AND a part of God. Created BY God FOR MAN in the absence of Christ. A 'link' of sorts. That which is able to offer us a 'link' between God and man. For we KNOW that the Holy Spirit has existed PREVIOUS to Christ's visit upon this Earth and that it continues to exist today. This SAME Spirit IS that which was able to bring our forefathers to 'the truth' as well as ourselves. It IS that which convicts us OF THE TRUTH and HAS since the prophets offered the 'truth' concerning the 'will of God' and 'the coming of Christ'.

MEC