Orthodox Catholic aint Roman Catholic

[Orthodoxy]

Why don't you simply supply text to support your earlier assertion.
Mary's heart was pierced with grief, it is not being said that she never suffered.
But this is not your assertion
[quote:c6d51]Yeh, I know for sure Jesus was brought into the world in pain, cause the bible tells me so

That was your assertion.
Chapter and verse please.

OC, I'll disregard your silly haughtiness...... Begin with verse one of chapter one in Genesis and go right through to the end of Revelation 22, maybe by the grace of God it will dawn on you.


In the mean time, maybe you can ponder Jesus in His humanity as revealed by the truth found in the following,.....

Mark 6 : 3, "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not His sisters here with us? And they were stumbled in Him."

The blind despisers' word here may be considered a fulfillment of the prophecy in Isa. 53:2-3 concerning the Slave-Savior: "As a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men." To know Him in that way was to know Him in His humanity according to the flesh (2 Cor. 5:16), not in His deity according to the Spirit (Rom. 1:4). In His humanity He was a root out of dry ground, a twig out of the stem of Jesse and a Branch out of his roots (Isa. 11:1), a Branch unto David (Jer. 23:5; 33:15), the Branch who was a man and the Servant of Jehovah (Zech. 3:8; 6:12), One who came out of the seed of David according to the flesh (Rom. 1:3). In His deity He was the Shoot of Jehovah for beauty and glory (Isa. 4:2), the Son of God marked out in power according to the Spirit (Rom. 1:4).

1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Maybe it is the suffering that saved her? Never the less scripture does not specifically claim Mary suffered in her child birth. As the protestant would say of things they simply do not understand "what differance does it make in the whole scheme of salvation" other than women who suffer during pregnancy are saved?

Scripture tells us that women give birth in pain, and knowledge of the physical anatomy of a women supports this.

Duh. Have you ever had a child? If not take your lower lip and pull it over your head. That is close to the suffering a woman partakes of having a child.

These two truths taken together reveals the reality of what is the content of giving birth to a son, as Mary did, as Jesus was born according to the flesh.

Now was this the Father called Jesus Christ or the Son named Jesus Christ? I am kinda confused now because you seem to imply the Father left His throne to "become" Jesus Christ in the flesh. This would deny the eternal existance of the Son. Are you saying there was a time when the Son of God was not in existance?

Further, as much as you or any other here would like to suggest that God did not allow Mary to suffer in childbirth, there is nothing in scripture that tells us this.

Nor that tells us she did. Pure speculation on your part, however Church traditions, which is like poision to the Bible alone practicianers, says Mary felt no pain when the King passed through her gate.

Therefore, which do we accept, what scripture says about human childbirth, or what men would like to add to scripture?

Personally all men are liars so I trust the Church and its 2000 year old understanding of the Truth. You my friend are included in the "all men".

Jesus was (is) fully human, just as Mary was fully human, and His life as a human began as any other human life begins, in pain as a result of what is associated with human childbirth.

[/quote:c6d51]

When did the Human Jesus Christ become God?

Did Jesus Christ become God before or after His birth?

When did God bestow upon Jesus Christ His divine nature?

No questions Jesus Christ was perfected in His suffering. Do you think the doctor slapped God's fanny when He was born or did Godhood come later and he was merely slapping the fanny of a mere mortal human infant?

I think your beliefs are fairly clear and I am up to about three heresies you how dear. But whos counting. If we are all saved as you imply who cares who we worship.

Orthodoxy

 

[stovebolts]

James,
Yes, I can see where it would be difficult to put a cut and dry answer to this one. I thought that it would be a simple yes or no answer...

Personally, I'd of thought no. At least that's the answer a RCC or Orthodox would have gotten from our Church.

Jeff

Who's right in all of this. That is something your Church can't answer Jeff. They have no authority to do so. How are we to decide a dispute between you and I? The Matt 18 way? Won't work will it. :-?

Matt 18 works for me because the Church I belong to believes that the "Church" consists of those who have been fully immersed (Baptised) through the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[thessalonian]

James,
Yes, I can see where it would be difficult to put a cut and dry answer to this one. I thought that it would be a simple yes or no answer...

Personally, I'd of thought no. At least that's the answer a RCC or Orthodox would have gotten from our Church.

Jeff

Who's right in all of this. That is something your Church can't answer Jeff. They have no authority to do so. How are we to decide a dispute between you and I? The Matt 18 way? Won't work will it. :-?

Matt 18 works for me because the Church I belong to believes that the "Church" consists of those who have been fully immersed (Baptised) through the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Stove,

First of all do you say that I am not a member of Christ's Church because I was not fully immersed? Am I not baptized?

Secondly tell me how Matt 18 works for you. Matt 18 is about settling disputes between Christians. Now let's suppose you and OC, who has been fully immersed as well, get in to a dispute. You get your two or three witnesses, but their from your church but he says your witnesses are biased because they are from your church. :-? He says, let's go over to my Bishop and he'll settle this. You say WHOOOOAAAAA! HOLD ON BUCKO, it ain't happenin. He says "Well my bishop says if you don't come over and settle this he'll caste you out like a tax collector". You laugh. Works real well at resolving issues doesn't it. Why? Because there is no real authority between the two of you. You may even have the same problem with a Baptist or Methodist (don't know where you hang your hat on Sunday) Division is not of God. You may feel comfortable in your little autonomous Church, but it's not Biblical. Denominationalism is not of God. The roots of Denominationalism is Sola Scriptura. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

James,
Yes, I can see where it would be difficult to put a cut and dry answer to this one. I thought that it would be a simple yes or no answer...

Personally, I'd of thought no. At least that's the answer a RCC or Orthodox would have gotten from our Church.

Jeff

Who's right in all of this. That is something your Church can't answer Jeff. They have no authority to do so. How are we to decide a dispute between you and I? The Matt 18 way? Won't work will it. :-?

Matt 18 works for me because the Church I belong to believes that the "Church" consists of those who have been fully immersed (Baptised) through the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Stove,

First of all do you say that I am not a member of Christ's Church because I was not fully immersed? Am I not baptized?

Secondly tell me how Matt 18 works for you. Matt 18 is about settling disputes between Christians. Now let's suppose you and OC, who has been fully immersed as well, get in to a dispute. You get your two or three witnesses, but their from your church but he says your witnesses are biased because they are from your church. :-? He says, let's go over to my Bishop and he'll settle this. You say WHOOOOAAAAA! HOLD ON BUCKO, it ain't happenin. He says "Well my bishop says if you don't come over and settle this he'll caste you out like a tax collector". You laugh. Works real well at resolving issues doesn't it. Why? Because there is no real authority between the two of you. You may even have the same problem with a Baptist or Methodist (don't know where you hang your hat on Sunday) Division is not of God. You may feel comfortable in your little autonomous Church, but it's not Biblical. Denominationalism is not of God. The roots of Denominationalism is Sola Scriptura. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

Hi Thess: The irony of this is that when I was received into the Orthodox Church, my Lutheran sprinkling baptism was accepted, and re-baptism disallowed. As I said, I am a son of obedience. Is your, or my non-immersion baptism illegitimate? Certainly not according to the Orthodox Church, in the oeconomy of the Church.

Please note, my friend, that in Orthodox thinking, it is we who are held to the sacraments, not God- and our immersion is simply obedience- no magical formula. One could baptize with air- which is actually done in extreme circumstances.

So let's ensure that this discussion is about form, and as important as form is, there are other key elements in baptism: authority of the Church, the "clear conscience" of the believer, and especially the resurrection power of Christ. So I would be the last one to denigrate your baptism.

 

[stovebolts]

Thess,

I can only point you to scripture. Scripture states that to be in Christ, one must be baptised. All examples of baptism show full immersion. The word itself, even if you take it back to the Hebrew in the OT, it always meant full immersion.

The book of Acts tells us that many were added to the Church daily, and each one that was added, was baptised (full immersion) through the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

BTW,
I do not hang my hat on a denominational doorstep.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,

I can only point you to scripture. Scripture states that to be in Christ, one must be baptised. All examples of baptism show full immersion. The word itself, even if you take it back to the Hebrew in the OT, it always meant full immersion.

Could you site these many passages that show full immersion for me? Be sure and show that text that specifically says they were completely immersed under water. The word baptized won't suffice since we, as you shall see below disagree on the various meanings of it. You can't use your conclusion as a premise. Thanks. Scripture NOWHERE gives definitive instructions for baptism, thus sayeth the Lord, do it this way. Tribulation always meant threshing of grain. Christianity however applied it to something else, don't you agree? But immersion is not the only meaning for baptise in the greek. On that you are incorrct.

Luke 11:38"[t]he Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash [baptizo] before dinner."

Do you suppose that they were amazed because he did not fully immerse before dinner. No, it meant to wash up.
It is actually interesting that in Acts 1 Jesus says that the Apostles will be BAPTIZED in the Holy Spirit. I guess they were to be immersed in it. But the fact is that in Acts 2 it says the Holy Spirit is POURED out on them. Do you think the jailor had a bathtub in his house?

The book of Acts tells us that many were added to the Church daily, and each one that was added, was baptised (full immersion) through the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

BTW,
I do not hang my hat on a denominational doorstep.[/quote]

Baptized does not always mean full immersion. Sorry. Now don't change what I say to sprinkling and once again, I agree that immersion is the most full sign of baptism. I found that your distorting what I said and then saying, sprinkling, pouring, what's the difference. My baptism is something very cherished and you belittle it.

You seem to be avoiding the Matt 18 question.

Blessings

 

[stovebolts]

Thess,
I will move the portion regarding baptism to the Immersion thread. I will respond to your matthew 18 question later in the day.

Thank you in your kindness and patience.

Jeff