I'm going to respond to your last statement first as I think it can set the tone for the remainder of my response.
Orthodox Christian said:
There is One faith, One baptism, One Lord, and One Church. Your term 'functioning' has an attendant implied meaning in your reckoning, one that I may or may not share. Is Paul functioning through me, in the sense that I profit from his epistles? Is my grandfather, may his memory be eternal, functioning in me when I look after the neighborhood kids, as he did? Or is it simply Christ functioning, having been made manifest in Paul and in my grandfather? I suggest the latter. If so, then there can only be One Church, One Body, as there is One Christ. Therefore 'function' is simply manifestation.
Absolutely in agreement Orthodox, function is manifestation.
But function carries with it something more than just manifestation, it carries purpose.
Scripture declares that without vision people lose self-restraint. In this, we find two matters, one of vision which requires a manifestation, and one of purpose.
It is also interesting to me that in your examples the direction of the manifestation is from the heavens towards the earth, and not from the earth towards heavens. Yet, we know that the heavens are watching for something,...... our response, or how we allow this manifestation to be worked out in our living.
And this living, according to scriptures, is unto God alone.
When Jesus ascended He went straight to the Father. In the same principle of resurrection and ascension, what we are in Christ goes directly to the Father.
"Our Father who is in the heavens, Your name be sanctified; Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth."
This is direct straight to the Father, and it is the way that the Lord Himself gave us to pray.
And again, in the Psalms, we find the pattern from which our Lord's instruction came.....
Psa 8:1, "O LORD our Lord, how excellent [is] thy name in all
the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens."
Again, straight to the Father.
Tell me Orthodox..... where is the manifestation/purpose of the veil being ripped apart to allow direct access to God by man, in prayers that are directed to saints who have passed away from this life?
Orthodox Christian said:
That is one of three possible interpretations of who the prevyteros are. I disagree- and here's why:
First, nowhere else in scripture are 24 prominent angels (archons) mentioned
Second- the type of the priest, offering incense to God, was a human priesthood. The priest offered service to God as those reserved to God from among men (not angels)
Allow me to answer the second first..... Nothing of the earthly tabernacle was equal to the heavenly tabernacle. God is Spirit, and thus moves in the realm of the Spirit.
The earthly tabernacle was a pattern of what is in the heavens, and not the other way around.
Concerning the priesthood being human, in the Spirit realm who is it that serves God in the manner of the pattern we see in the Jewish priesthood?
Christ. And in the scriptures Christ is also referred to as an Angel.
Further, scriptures clearly show us that angels attend God, worship God, and are the messengers of God. These three functions of angels are what is seen in the Jewish priesthood; the Levites attended to the needs of the tabernacle, they worshipped God, and the brought the people to God and God to the people.
(Not to be distracted, but I don't know why you would put "not angels", as creatures who have been reserved to serve God. Surely it is obvious that angels cannot come from among men, but likewise men cannot come from among angels. So what is you point in that last sentence?)
So, contrary to what I believe you are saying, angels do serve God in all the ways as seen in the priesthood....... with one exception, the priesthood carried the testimony of God on the earth; meaning this, God could not move on the earth without the cooperation of men.
This seemingly small point that is not spoken of and thus recognized much by believers is in fact a huge revelation of the truth concerning the purpose of the creation of mankind, and this is what will separate men from angels in the sense of our relationship to God, and will actually be that which causes us to rise higher than the angels.
Yet, for a while longer, the realization of this earthly pattern in the spiritual realm will not be fully manifested. But I digress.........
Suffice to say, except of Jesus, men do not serve God in the heavens as yet, angels do. Although, the appearing of Moses and Elijah might suggest that men are also used, we must be clear that both of these men were set aside by God for very specific reasons, and in doing so, special circumstances were required at the end of both regarding their early time on this earth. Moses died and was buried by God Himself, and Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind into heaven. Not your everyday scenario for a believer.
It should also be noted that the moment any form of thought was given by men (in this case by Peter) towards Moses and Elijah, God immediately removed both Moses and Elijah from man's sight (vision), and rebuked man for the thought. Thus once more clearly showing that our entire thought-life must be only Christ-focused.
Now concerning your statement about "....nowhere else in scripture are 24 prominent angels (archons) mentioned"...... although this might be true, it is not indicative of a proper conclusion being that these 24 elders must be men. Therefore, it is not enough to just assume that these are men, we must allow the bible to answer the bible.
Let's look at the matter of men and heavenly thrones.....
Matthew 19 : 28,
"And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you that you who have followed Me,
in the restoration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
And again, in Luke 22 : 30,
"That you may eat and drink at My table
in My kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Revelation 3 : 21
"He who overcomes, to him I will give to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat with My Father on His throne."
Revelation 20 : 4,
"And
I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand;
and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection."
So here in the verses above we can clearly see that men are to receive the reward of a throne in the coming reign of our Lord, in His kingdom, which has not yet come, according to its full manifestation, as is what is being spoken about in the verses above.
Therefore, what we see is that men have not yet received thrones to sit on, as the Lord's kingdom has not yet come in its fullness. The time of the "restoration" is at the Lord's coming. And it is at this time that scripture tells us men will receive thrones.
So who is it that sits on the thrones at this time (as referred to in verses in question)?
The elders here are not the elders of the church but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord's second coming, they are sitting on thrones already (cross-reference Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4). Among God's creation the angels are the most ancient ones. Their elders are the elders of the whole creation of God. That they sit on thrones with golden crowns on their heads indicates that they must be the ones who rule the universe until the millennial kingdom, when the authority to rule the earth will be given to the overcoming saints (Heb. 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4). That they are clothed in white garments and have a harp and golden bowls full of incense (5:8) indicates that now they are also priests before God; in the millennial kingdom, however, the reigning overcomers will be the priests of God and of Christ (20:6). The elders' golden crowns indicate that they are also ruling ones. Therefore, they are priests serving God and kings reigning over His creation.
Lets look at Revelations 11 : 17 - 18,
"And the twenty-four elders who sit before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshipped God, saying, We thank You, Lord God the Almighty, He who is and who was, because You have taken Your great power and have reigned. And the nations became angry, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged,....
and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
.... and the time to give the reward to Your slaves the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Your name, to the small and to the great,....
Sitting on a throne is a reward to be received by a saint/believer, at a certain time. And when is that "time"?
At the Lord's return, as revealed in verse 15,...
"And the seventh angel trumpeted; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,.....
The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever."
The time for saints to take their seat on a throne is at the Lord's return, and not before.
And it is at this time, that we will see the fulfillment of Revelation 4 : 10,
"The twenty-four elders will fall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,"
Why would men who have received an eternal reward of a crown, cast this reward before the throne?
And no, it is not a display of humility, as Christ has made us kings and priests, thus the crowns on the heads of those who receive them is what declares His will being done and thus His glory.
In fact, according to the preceding verses, this section of the holy Word implies that when the redeemed saints  represented by the man among the four living creatures, who are redeemed  have been perfected and glorified to be the proper priests and kings (Rev. 20:6), the temporary priests and kings, the twenty-four angelic elders, will resign from their offices. This is implied by the fact that they will cast their crowns before the throne.
Yet, even though we can know that it is not men who are referred to as elders (in the verses in question), how do we know who these elders are?
Revelation 8:3
"And another Angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and much incense was given to Him to offer with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne"
So here we have the connection made between an angel offering the prayers and incense, as we see the elders also do.
Again, allow me to repeat..... In God’s creation, angels are the most ancient ones. In the Bible there are different types of elders: the elders of the Israelites, the elders of the churches, and, as here, the elders of the angels. The elders of the angels are the elders of the whole creation of God. That they sit on thrones with golden crowns on their heads indicates that they must be the rulers of the universe until the millennial kingdom, when the authority to rule the earth will be given to the overcoming saints (Heb. 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4). The white garments with which they are clothed reveal that these angelic elders are sinless, having no need of the washing by the blood of the Lamb as do the redeemed saints (7:14).
These twenty-four elders are clothed in white garments and have golden crowns on their heads. That they are clothed in white garments and have “a harp and golden bowls full of incense†(5:8) indicates that now they are also priests before God, whereas, in the millennial kingdom, the reigning overcomers will be the priests of God and of Christ (20:6). These twenty-four angels must be the universal priests. Their golden crowns indicate that they are also ruling ones. They are priests serving God and kings reigning over His creation. Before the creation of man, God had the leading angels as His priests and ruling instruments. According to Ezekiel 28, before Satan fell, he was such a one. He was God’s priest and also a king. Even when the Devil, Satan, tempted the Lord Jesus, showing Him “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in a moment of time,†he said, “To You I will give all this authority and their glory, because to me it has been delivered, and to whomsoever I want I give it†(Luke 4:5-6). The world was given him before the Adamic age. Thus, there was an age during which God gave authority to Satan, making him a king to reign over that universe. Likewise, these twenty-four elders were God’s priests and kings.
The number of the angelic elders, twenty-four, is composed of two times twelve. Twelve is the number of the completion of God’s administration (Matt. 19:28). David divided both the priests and the Levites into twenty-four groups (1 Chron. 24 and 25) to carry out God’s administrative service. The number twenty-four indicates that, before the church is installed to replace them, the angelic elders are the ones who carry out God’s administration. Twelve times two signifies strengthening by doubling, indicating that the divine administration carried out by the angelic elders is strong.
Otrthodox, for the sake of digestion, I’m going to stop here.
I believe I have fully revealed why these “elders†cannot be men, and, although there is no exact scripture that says so, why I believe we can be confident that they are angels. There are set ways and principles in God economy and His administration of it, and one of these set ways is found in the matter of eldership. The only valid conclusion is that among angels there must be an eldership, and that given this, and the scriptures I’ve presented, we can be fairly confident that the elders in question are in fact angels.
I’ll respond to the rest of your post below.
In love,
cj
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