OSAS is biblical truth.

[George Muller]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

Agreed.

The "Faith" is the active ministry of the Holy Spirit in each and every believers life. If we are quenching or grieving His ministry to us, we will see the truth as foolishness.

Living in the idea of working for or losing salvation, we are grieving and quenching the Spirits ministry to us.

The Spirit Says ," You are mine and I will not let you go." the creature says ," Wait a minute, I can let go and make you release your grip."

The Hand of God Rational:

The hand of God rationale uses an anthropomorphism approach to illustrate eternal security. An anthropomorphism assigns a human characteristic or a part of the human body to God which God does not have. Another is assigning God a human emotion towards a person that He does not have, but uses a word so we can understand, like HATE towards Esau.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Good stuff, you edify my faith my friend. Blessings to you in His Name and may you grow always in the grace and knowledge of our Beloved Christ Jesus.

 

[gr8grace]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

Agreed.

The "Faith" is the active ministry of the Holy Spirit in each and every believers life. If we are quenching or grieving His ministry to us, we will see the truth as foolishness.

Living in the idea of working for or losing salvation, we are grieving and quenching the Spirits ministry to us.

The Spirit Says ," You are mine and I will not let you go." the creature says ," Wait a minute, I can let go and make you release your grip."

The Hand of God Rational:

The hand of God rationale uses an anthropomorphism approach to illustrate eternal security. An anthropomorphism assigns a human characteristic or a part of the human body to God which God does not have. Another is assigning God a human emotion towards a person that He does not have, but uses a word so we can understand, like HATE towards Esau.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Good stuff, you edify my faith my friend. Blessings to you in His Name and may you grow always in the grace and knowledge of our Beloved Christ Jesus.

Same to you Brother. The Christian life IS Growing in His Grace and Knowledge.

Blessings George!

 

[dadof10]

We posses none, unless we have a say in the color of our car. Where does Scripture teach we are saved no matter what we do? Where is is taught that it's OK to just stay in our sins, even after we are "saved", because all we have to do is make a one-time confession of faith? Chapter and verse, please.

But this is just philosophy and cool words.

Eph 2:8 and John 5:24 have not been properly explained in this WHOLE OP by any conditional salvation proponents.

Neither one of these verses say we DON'T HAVE TO REMAIN FAITHFUL AFTER CONVERSION. You are mistaken.

Take Eph. 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God."

Can I reject the gift? Yes or no. Can I accept the gift, then, at some point in the future, throw it away? Can't you see how this verse ONLY speaks to God's side of the relationship, not ours? This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned. It isn't given on the basis of any WORKS OF THE LAW done, but by the Grace of God. It doesn't speak to the FACT that we can reject Him.

Now, John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

This verse, taken in isolation, proves that we only have to believe in the Jewish God, not in Christ, to forever have eternal life. Is this your take? The verse says "and believes him who sent me..." not "believes in Me...". Proof texting is where we get snake-handlers. There are other verses that speak to the subject. Jethro, JLB, etc. have given you plenty that debunk your view. You just won't hear it because you are focused on these two.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Ephesians 2:8

In the verse Ephesians 2:8, the faith to be saved is the "gift" mentioned in this verse, not the salvation itself.

If a person disregards this faith and does not continue in it, as Paul teaches, then that person no longer has a faith that can save, especially if that person were to begin to look to the law and the works of the law for salvation, as many were doing in Paul's day.

So the gift referred to in Ephesians 2:8 is faith, not eternal salvation.


JLB

We agree here, JLB. As I said in the post above, "This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned."

 

[JLB]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

Agreed.

The "Faith" is the active ministry of the Holy Spirit in each and every believers life. If we are quenching or grieving His ministry to us, we will see the truth as foolishness.

Living in the idea of working for or losing salvation, we are grieving and quenching the Spirits ministry to us.

The Spirit Says ," You are mine and I will not let you go." the creature says ," Wait a minute, I can let go and make you release your grip."

The Hand of God Rational:

The hand of God rationale uses an anthropomorphism approach to illustrate eternal security. An anthropomorphism assigns a human characteristic or a part of the human body to God which God does not have. Another is assigning God a human emotion towards a person that He does not have, but uses a word so we can understand, like HATE towards Esau.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Pure man made human reasoning.

Please address my post with scripture that states Christians who are saved can take the mark of the beast and not suffer the consequence of what the scripture teaches.

JLB

 

[dadof10]

lets do some more on John 5:24. we have been shown the clear and intended meaning of "from death to life" in another post. Lets do "does not come into judgement"

In John 5:24 it says, …does not come into judgment, it does not say "might not", or "should not" or "may not", but emphatically, does not. In the Greek, the verse is much clearer; kai eis krisin ouk erchetai[and into judgment not comes]. The verb erchetai means to come or to arrive, and therefore..." does not come into judgment."

oukis is an interesting word. When you Attach ouk with any verb in the Greek, it is used to vehemently deny that what is being declared in the verb will ever happen to the subject of the sentence. The verb here is krisis, which is judgment. The subject or object of the verb is anyone who believes. Therefore, anyone who believes will not and never come into judgment. The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation.

Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even be saved? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we are eternally saved. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of salvation, it might clear things up a little. ;)

I am sure this was just overlooked. Here is a copy and paste from the OP:

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly†in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen†or “Truly, trulyâ€, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly†is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Huh? If this verse has nothing to do with salvation, why did you post "so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation."? This is what I was responding to. Why did you post this verse in a thread you started entitled "OSAS..." if it is "NOT a salvation verse"? Please, stop playing word games.

The above has nothing to do with my exegesis of Jn. 5? You want input into the two verses you posted, and I gave it. This is clearly a dodge. But, if you want to split hairs, fine. I'll repost it with the words "eternal security" in place of "salvation" and put it in red. Will you respond to my points then?

"Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even [have eternal security]? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we [have eternal security]. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of [eternal security], it might clear things up a little. ;)"

There. It doesn't change the meaning at all. You are still reading your own personal theology ("...once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation") into the text.

Where does this verse command belief in Jesus as a condition for eternal security? All I see is hear Jesus' word and believe in God.

 

[gr8grace]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

Agreed.

The "Faith" is the active ministry of the Holy Spirit in each and every believers life. If we are quenching or grieving His ministry to us, we will see the truth as foolishness.

Living in the idea of working for or losing salvation, we are grieving and quenching the Spirits ministry to us.

The Spirit Says ," You are mine and I will not let you go." the creature says ," Wait a minute, I can let go and make you release your grip."

The Hand of God Rational:

The hand of God rationale uses an anthropomorphism approach to illustrate eternal security. An anthropomorphism assigns a human characteristic or a part of the human body to God which God does not have. Another is assigning God a human emotion towards a person that He does not have, but uses a word so we can understand, like HATE towards Esau.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Pure man made human reasoning.

Please address my post with scripture that states Christians who are saved can take the mark of the beast and not suffer the consequence of what the scripture teaches.

JLB

nope. You nor any conditional security person has addressed Eph 2:8 and broke that verse down. Which is the OP. its always a distraction to something else.

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

It is what is called a periphrastic perfect in the Koine Greek and is one of the most powerful and forceful phrases in the Koine Greek. It is when the writer cannot get all the details and the importance of the details in one verbal form so the writer uses 2 verbal forms to get the importance of the statement across to the readers. It offers NO loopholes for the reader.

"saved" is the Intensive perfect/passive/participle of sozo in the Greek. the intensive perfect says, "the Action(saved) is a completed action and continues on forever and forever."

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present.

Show me how the Greek is wrong? The Greek has to be wrong if we conclude what you conclude.

 

[gr8grace]

lets do some more on John 5:24. we have been shown the clear and intended meaning of "from death to life" in another post. Lets do "does not come into judgement"

In John 5:24 it says, …does not come into judgment, it does not say "might not", or "should not" or "may not", but emphatically, does not. In the Greek, the verse is much clearer; kai eis krisin ouk erchetai[and into judgment not comes]. The verb erchetai means to come or to arrive, and therefore..." does not come into judgment."

oukis is an interesting word. When you Attach ouk with any verb in the Greek, it is used to vehemently deny that what is being declared in the verb will ever happen to the subject of the sentence. The verb here is krisis, which is judgment. The subject or object of the verb is anyone who believes. Therefore, anyone who believes will not and never come into judgment. The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation.

Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even be saved? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we are eternally saved. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of salvation, it might clear things up a little. ;)

I am sure this was just overlooked. Here is a copy and paste from the OP:

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly” in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen” or “Truly, truly”, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly” is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Huh? If this verse has nothing to do with salvation, why did you post "so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation."? This is what I was responding to. Why did you post this verse in a thread you started entitled "OSAS..." if it is "NOT a salvation verse"? Please, stop playing word games.

The above has nothing to do with my exegesis of Jn. 5? You want input into the two verses you posted, and I gave it. This is clearly a dodge. But, if you want to split hairs, fine. I'll repost it with the words "eternal security" in place of "salvation" and put it in red. Will you respond to my points then?

"Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even [have eternal security]? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we [have eternal security]. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of [eternal security], it might clear things up a little. ;)"

There. It doesn't change the meaning at all. You are still reading your own personal theology ("...once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation") into the text.

Where does this verse command belief in Jesus as a condition for eternal security? All I see is hear Jesus' word and believe in God.

That is what is stated in the Op Dad, this verse is for believers only, they are already saved. Now the Father is telling believers about eternal security and the Son Is the one teaching. If we believe the Father and what is being said we will KNOW and believe in eternal security. If we do not believe in what the Father is telling us, we will not know eternal security and believe that we live in limbo and have no security from the Father.

But I still see that no one from the conditional security camp will deal with the facts stated about Eph 2:8

If you will break down Eph 2:8 and prove the OP wrong about the Greek language then you will have a platform for my ears. So far nothing.

 

[George Muller]

Here it is for those who truly want to live in the blessed hope of our eternal security in Christ.

*Greek ConC/Wrd==**Parsing ============ ==== Trans. of EPH 2: 8 T/ord
o 3588 fem artl dat s ------- *by the
gar 1063 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *For
caris 5485 fem ---- dat s noun--- grace
eimi 1510 pres act ind 2p ---verb *ye are being,
swzw 4982 perf pas nom p mas-Ptc *having been saved,
dia 1223 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- through
o 3588 fem artl gen s ------- the
pistis 4102 fem ---- gen s noun--- faith
kai 2532 ---- ---- --- -- conj--- *and
outos 3778 neu ---- nom s pronoun this
ou 3756 ---- part --- -- ------- not
ek 1537 ---- ---- gen -- prep--- *out from
su 4771 ---- ---- gen p pronoun *yourselves
qeos 2316 mas ---- gen s noun--- *of God
o 3588 neu artl nom s ------- the
dwrov 1435 neu ---- nom s noun--- gift

The bold is the periphrastic Perfect that has been denied many times today.

You can present facts, that are clear as day, but it takes "faith" to believe the facts.

Agreed.

The "Faith" is the active ministry of the Holy Spirit in each and every believers life. If we are quenching or grieving His ministry to us, we will see the truth as foolishness.

Living in the idea of working for or losing salvation, we are grieving and quenching the Spirits ministry to us.

The Spirit Says ," You are mine and I will not let you go." the creature says ," Wait a minute, I can let go and make you release your grip."

The Hand of God Rational:

The hand of God rationale uses an anthropomorphism approach to illustrate eternal security. An anthropomorphism assigns a human characteristic or a part of the human body to God which God does not have. Another is assigning God a human emotion towards a person that He does not have, but uses a word so we can understand, like HATE towards Esau.

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)


The word “never” in John 10:28-30 is a double negative in the Greek and means never, no not ever. Now, that is eternal security. Remember, a double negative in the Greek is different than in the English and provides much more emphasis on the negative when used. This passage goes on to say that no one is able to take them out of the hands of either Jesus Christ or the Father. This means that both the Father and the Son hold our hands. This is a sure-fire and eternal grip as found in Psalms 37:23-24.

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Pure man made human reasoning.

Please address my post with scripture that states Christians who are saved can take the mark of the beast and not suffer the consequence of what the scripture teaches.

JLB

If you mean God had these things written in such plain words that a man of honest reasoning would read and understand? Then, yes I agree. But the clear and evident reading and intention of the scriptures belong to God and any one who understands words can understand what He has reasoned. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[JLB]

nope. You nor any conditional security person has addressed Eph 2:8 and broke that verse down. Which is the OP. its always a distraction to something else. Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

There is nothing to break down. I have said several times, it means just what it says.

I will not try to change what it means, by interjecting my human opinion or adding anything to this verse.

I will only give you a verse of scripture that gives a balanced perspective to this scripture.

By grace you have been saved...

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The context is salvation is by grace, through faith, and even the faith that you have for salvation is a gift from God, so that no man can boast of earning salvation.

That is the context.

"you have been saved" should read in our English as," you being saved in the past you continue on being saved now and you are saved forever and ever." It is a dogmatic and unquestionable truth from the words perspective.

Now this statement is a mixture of scripture and the words you added to the scripture to come up with something different than the scripture states.

You have changed the context from salvation is by grace through faith, to salvation is a gift from God that you can never lose no matter what.

"you have been" is present/active/indicative of eimi. and the present tense says that ," the Action(saved) continues on in the present. Show me how the Greek is wrong? The Greek has to be wrong if we conclude what you conclude.

I can show you the scriptures that prove your interpretation of Ephesians is unbalanced.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

and again Peter says it this way -

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.

kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH FOR SALVATION.

RECEIVING THE END OF YOUR FAITH, THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL.


You say salvation is obtained at the beginning of your faith when you first believe you are saved now and forever!

The scripture says -

RECEIVING THE END OF YOUR FAITH, THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL.

The scripture says -

if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel, He will present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

Your theory and doctrine just fall way short of what the scriptures teach in plain and clear, straight forward words.

I reject your false doctrine in Jesus name!


JLB

 

[George Muller]

I can show you the scriptures that prove your interpretation of Ephesians is unbalanced.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Blameless and above reproach are the conditional aspects of this passage, not salvation. I do see an honest attempt to rightly divide the Word in this post? Will you admit the issue of being "moved from the hope of the gospel" is a warning against turning back to law? As is shown in this same epistle and throughout all the epistles that have any relation to continuing in faith. Without seeing that it is the law that voids faith and the hope of the gospel their is no true desire to seek and know the purpose of these scriptures.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: (BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW)
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

HERE IS THE ISSUE (THE LAW) WHICH IS NOT OF FAITH

 

[ezra]

The Christian life IS Growing in His Grace and Knowledge.

as we grow we learn more of how secure we are in christ called being mature in our faith. here is the big turn off when it comes to eternal security once saved always saved ..far to many out say they have been saved but there life style shows different. they want to cuss like a sailor live like the devil . they profess with their lips they are saved. they tell you they ARE not living right. but yet claim they are still saved.. Folks that does not line up with scripture. true eternal security is full confidence in Christ. walking in the light as he is the Light. {7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. } just how rooted are you living in darkness ? the answer your not.. if we are not bearing no fruit we have NO ROOT

 

[JLB]

Will you admit the issue of being "moved from the hope of the gospel" is a warning against turning back to law?

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8

When a person chooses to turn away from God, there is only one choice for that person to turn to, and that is Satan.

15 For some have already turned aside after Satan. 1 Timothy 5:15

I believe The Lord would try to reach a person in this situation, however if they die in this position and refuse to repent, then they will be lost, just like those who in these last days choose to take the mark of the beast.

Look at what Paul is saying in Colossians -

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Paul is teaching these people they must remain in their faith, the same faith that caused then to be reconciled to God needs to be continued, in order to keep them reconciled to God.

That is what Paul is teaching.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

I can show you the scriptures that prove your interpretation of Ephesians is unbalanced.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Blameless and above reproach are the conditional aspects of this passage, not salvation. I do see an honest attempt to rightly divide the Word in this post? Will you admit the issue of being "moved from the hope of the gospel" is a warning against turning back to law? As is shown in this same epistle and throughout all the epistles that have any relation to continuing in faith. Without seeing that it is the law that voids faith and the hope of the gospel their is no true desire to seek and know the purpose of these scriptures.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: (BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW)
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

HERE IS THE ISSUE (THE LAW) WHICH IS NOT OF FAITH

Good post George. Colossians is about HOPE and The Colossians were strong believers and believed in the Hope of their salvation. And legalistic ,self righteous prigs were trying to lead them away. And Steal their Hope. If they left the Gospel and followed the false teachers their Hope would be gone.

One could say that faith is the basis for assurance, and
hope is the expression of assurance.

The warning in Colossians 1:21–23 shows that Christian assurance can be subverted by false doctrine and legalistic tendencies. When such hope is undermined, so is the basis for a strong
faith in God and a fruitful life toward others.Christians should not be like others who have no hope,1 Thess 4:13. Christians should ,live and die as they look expectantly for the realization of their Hope.

Col 1:5~~ because of the hope laid up for you in Heaven.

Col 1:22~~yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

This verse speaks of the believers evaluation at the Bema seat or judgement seat of Christ. There are Going to be Babes in Christ and Mature believers presented before him. It is our progressive sanctification in this life as a believer that will be presented to Christ at the Bema seat.

Col 1:23~~ is saying IF we continue in the Hope and In the Gospel and do not listen to false teaching and Go astray with legalism and works(human good), we will mature and be presented Holy and blameless. Mature believers will have lived a life as unto the Lord for the most part.

And there will be believers who will not be presented as Holy and Blameless in their progressive sanctification.

1 Cor 3:14-15~~If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Charles C. Bing writes,

The concept of being presented to the Lord is found elsewhere
in the New Testament (2 Cor. 4:14; 11:2; Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 5:23;
Jude 24), and in every case (except 2 Cor. 4:14), the quality of the
presentation is in view. Romans 14:10 uses the same verb for
―present to indicate the believer‘s appearance before
the Lord for evaluation at the judgment seat of Christ. While a future presentation to the Lord is guaranteed for all believers, a favorable presentation before the Lord, in which they are holy,
blameless, and beyond reproach, is stated as the desirable goal for
all believers. While all believers will be presented to Christ fully
justified in position, not all will be blameless in experience (1 Cor.
3:13–15; 4:5; 1 John 2:28).

I fully agree with Charles.

 

[JLB]

Colossians is about HOPE and The Colossians were strong believers and believed in the Hope of their salvation.

The Hope of salvation is Jesus Christ.

If you turn away from Him to another, then you have no more hope of salvation.

If you as a Christian take the mark of the beast, then you will suffer the same as the rest of the devils followers, as it is written -

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.Revelation 14:9-10

If you turn aside unto Satan and follow him, then you will end up where he ends up.

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: 37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:28-39


JLB

 

[dadof10]

I am sure this was just overlooked. Here is a copy and paste from the OP:

Pay careful attention, this is NOT a salvation verse. This is a dogmatic statement of eternal security for the believer.

NoticeThe first two words . When the Lord says, “Truly, truly†in the Greek, this is known as a sentential participle, which emphasizes an important point of doctrine. These two words actually mean, for certain, without a doubt, or indeed. Whenever the Lord Jesus Christ says, “Amen, amen†or “Truly, trulyâ€, it introduces a point of doctrine, a very vital truth of tremendous importance. The Lord Jesus Christ knew exactly what doctrinal principles Satan would attack, and “Truly, truly†is a warning that what was about to be said would inevitably be under attack by the kingdom of darkness. Each time the phrase is used, it introduces a truth that is of the greatest importance, i.e., something we need to pay particular attention to.

Huh? If this verse has nothing to do with salvation, why did you post "so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation."? This is what I was responding to. Why did you post this verse in a thread you started entitled "OSAS..." if it is "NOT a salvation verse"? Please, stop playing word games.

The above has nothing to do with my exegesis of Jn. 5? You want input into the two verses you posted, and I gave it. This is clearly a dodge. But, if you want to split hairs, fine. I'll repost it with the words "eternal security" in place of "salvation" and put it in red. Will you respond to my points then?

"Wrong. Let's do an exegesis on the ACTUAL verse.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

To "pass from death to life" and "not come into condemnation" and "have eternal life" is contingent on two things.

1) Hear Jesus' word e.g. preaching.
2) Believe on HIM THAT SENT ME, e.g. God.

According to this verse and this verse ALONE, we need only hear Jesus (which for us is impossible), and believe in the God of Judaism. This verse says NOTHING about believing in Jesus, only the Jewish God.

So, if we take this verse ALONE, we must believe it's a crap shoot at best. We CAN'T hear Jesus' word (notice it doesn't say READ Jesus' word), so can we even [have eternal security]? But on the other hand, all we have to do is believe in the God of the Jews, and we [have eternal security]. Humm..... Maybe we should look at what else Scripture says on the subject of [eternal security], it might clear things up a little. ;)"

There. It doesn't change the meaning at all. You are still reading your own personal theology ("...once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation") into the text.

Where does this verse command belief in Jesus as a condition for eternal security? All I see is hear Jesus' word and believe in God.

That is what is stated in the Op Dad, this verse is for believers only, they are already saved.

Sorry, no. This verse is part of a greater discourse which starts at verse 17 after He healed a man on the Sabbath.

"The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did this on the sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working still, and I am working." 18 This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

He then continues with the discourse:

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you,..."

This discourse was obviously given to "the Jews", not to saved believers. If this isn't enough to convince you, in verses 37-40, in the same discourse, He chastises "them".

"37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

Obviously not spoken to believers. If so, OSAS is false because these "believers" refuse to come to Him.

Now the Father is telling believers about eternal security and the Son Is the one teaching. If we believe the Father and what is being said we will KNOW and believe in eternal security. If we do not believe in what the Father is telling us, we will not know eternal security and believe that we live in limbo and have no security from the Father.

Again, this is not even close to what the verse says, nor is it what you claimed in your last post. You said: "The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation." This is your main point, that eternal security rests on faith in Christ alone. This verse does not even come close to making your point.

But I still see that no one from the conditional security camp will deal with the facts stated about Eph 2:8

If you will break down Eph 2:8 and prove the OP wrong about the Greek language then you will have a platform for my ears. So far nothing.

I did an exegesis on this passage, you ignored it. Why do I have to break down the Greek to know this verse doesn't back up your contention either? Here is what I wrote previously;

Take Eph. 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God."

Can I reject the gift? Yes or no. Can I accept the gift, then, at some point in the future, throw it away? Can't you see how this verse ONLY speaks to God's side of the relationship, not ours? This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned. It isn't given on the basis of any WORKS OF THE LAW done, but by the Grace of God. It doesn't speak to the FACT that we can reject Him.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

If conditional security is true. Show the readers that John 5:24 and Eph 2:8 do not prove eternal security.

Ephesians begins as follows:

1 Paul, an Apostle of the Anointed Jesus (by the Will of God), to the Holy Ones in Ephesus… those faithful ones in the Anointed Jesus;...

then continues in chapter 2...:

1 For, you have died to the ways of sin and error 2 that you once walked in (the ways of this arrangement) when you used to follow the ruler of the power of the air… the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.

Eph 4:1 So, as a prisoner in the Lord, I urge you to be worthy of the calling that you've received,.....................
17 I tell you this and testify to it in the Lord: You must not continue in the path that the nations are following! For, their thoughts are worthless, 18 their minds have been darkened to any understanding, and they are aliens to a Godly life because of their ignorance and [their] dull hearts. 19 For, since it no longer brings them any pain, they’ve given themselves over to living wasted lives and greedily doing filthy things.20 However, that isn’t the way you’ve learned the Anointed One to be 21 (if you, for a fact, did hear him and were taught about him); because, truth comes through Jesus. 22 So, get rid of those old ways that are being corrupted by the enticements that come from desire, 23 and renew the spirit of your minds! 24 Then put on the new person… [the one] that is created by God’s Will in the righteousness and loyalty of the truth.25 Also, get rid of lying… you must always tell your neighbors the truth; because, we’re all fellow body parts of each other! 26 [Yes, you can] get irritated, but don’t sin… don’t let the sun set on the reason for your irritation, 27 nor allow any room for the Slanderer.28 And he who steals shouldn’t steal anymore. Rather, let him work hard and do good things with his hands, so he'll have something to share with the needy. 29 Nor should you allow any foul words to come out of your mouths. Rather, use good words that are upbuilding (as they are needed) to show that you care about those who listen to you. 30 Don’t sadden the Holy Breath of God that you were sealed with on the Day that your ransom was paid! 31 Get rid of all the bitterness, anger, wrath, screaming, and slandering, along with everything [else] that’s bad, 32 and be kind to each other… be sympathetic and graciously forgive each other, as God (through the Anointed One) has graciously forgiven you.
Chapter 5

1 Become imitators of God as His loved children, 2 and keep on walking in love, as the Anointed One loved you and gave himself up for you as an offering… a sweet smelling sacrifice to God. 3 Don’t allow sexual immorality or any type of uncleanness or greediness to be even mentioned among you, as would be expected of people who are holy. 4 Nor [should you share in] shameful conduct, foolishness, or dirty jokes (which are all unbecoming); but rather, give thanks. 5 Because, you already recognize and know that all those who are immoral, unclean, and greedy (which really amounts to being idol worshipers) won’t have an inheritance in the Kingdom of the Anointed One and of God.6 Don’t allow anyone to seduce you into using empty words. For, it’s because of things like this that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 So, don’t join in with them, because; 8 although you were once dark, you are now light in the Lord. So, keep walking as children of light!

In letting the texts and their context do the talking, it doesn't appear that eternal security of the believer is even mentioned. In Ephesians, Paul beckons the gentile converts to continue in the faith and to behave in a holy manner worthy of their calling in Christ and not to behave as those from which they came because the wrath of God would be upon all those who are immoral, unclean, and greedy, etc and such people won’t have an inheritance in the Kingdom of the Anointed One and of God.

---------------------------------------
As far as John is concerned, looking at the context of the text, it doesn't appear to support, endorse, or scream eternal security in the sense of the OSAS doctrine AT ALL. See below.

Jesus said to them: 'I tell you the truth; The Son can do nothing on his own other than what he sees the Father doing… whatever [the Father] does is what the Son does. 20 And because the Father cares about the Son, He shows him everything that He does… and [God] will show him greater works than these, just to amaze you.
21 'Therefore, as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive; the Son can also give life to whomever he wishes. 22 Also, the Father doesn't judge anyone; for, He has left all the judging to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father… and whoever doesn't honor the Son, doesn't honor the Father who sent him.
24 'I tell you the truth; He who hears what I say and believes in the One that sent me will have age-long life… he won't have to be judged; for, he has come out of the death and into the life!'
25 'I also truthfully say that the time is coming – – when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of The God, and those who hear it will live. 26 For, just as the Father has life in Himself, He has also given the Son life in himself 27 and authorized him to do judging… because, he is the son of man.

 

[George Muller]

The Christian life IS Growing in His Grace and Knowledge.

as we grow we learn more of how secure we are in christ called being mature in our faith. here is the big turn off when it comes to eternal security once saved always saved ..far to many out say they have been saved but there life style shows different. they want to cuss like a sailor live like the devil . they profess with their lips they are saved. they tell you they ARE not living right. but yet claim they are still saved.. Folks that does not line up with scripture. true eternal security is full confidence in Christ. walking in the light as he is the Light. {7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. } just how rooted are you living in darkness ? the answer your not.. if we are not bearing no fruit we have NO ROOT

What charge of darkness can be made against the poster of this scripture? Other than Greatgrace believes the scriptures? "abounding in thanksgiving" Means to give thanks for what one has been given.

The only charge those who doubt salvation can make is that those who "believe" do not have the proper amount of "doubt" to be saved:toofunny.

This I know, that those who trust in the eternal salvation of Christ, and in His unconditional grace ALWAYS live more Godly lives than those who make such charges and attempt to promote a doubtful gospel of works.

 

[George Muller]

I can show you the scriptures that prove your interpretation of Ephesians is unbalanced.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

Blameless and above reproach are the conditional aspects of this passage, not salvation. I do see an honest attempt to rightly divide the Word in this post? Will you admit the issue of being "moved from the hope of the gospel" is a warning against turning back to law? As is shown in this same epistle and throughout all the epistles that have any relation to continuing in faith. Without seeing that it is the law that voids faith and the hope of the gospel their is no true desire to seek and know the purpose of these scriptures.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: (BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW)
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

HERE IS THE ISSUE (THE LAW) WHICH IS NOT OF FAITH

Good post George. Colossians is about HOPE and The Colossians were strong believers and believed in the Hope of their salvation. And legalistic ,self righteous prigs were trying to lead them away. And Steal their Hope. If they left the Gospel and followed the false teachers their Hope would be gone.

One could say that faith is the basis for assurance, and
hope is the expression of assurance.

The warning in Colossians 1:21–23 shows that Christian assurance can be subverted by false doctrine and legalistic tendencies. When such hope is undermined, so is the basis for a strong
faith in God and a fruitful life toward others.Christians should not be like others who have no hope,1 Thess 4:13. Christians should ,live and die as they look expectantly for the realization of their Hope.

Col 1:5~~ because of the hope laid up for you in Heaven.

Col 1:22~~yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

This verse speaks of the believers evaluation at the Bema seat or judgement seat of Christ. There are Going to be Babes in Christ and Mature believers presented before him. It is our progressive sanctification in this life as a believer that will be presented to Christ at the Bema seat.

Col 1:23~~ is saying IF we continue in the Hope and In the Gospel and do not listen to false teaching and Go astray with legalism and works(human good), we will mature and be presented Holy and blameless. Mature believers will have lived a life as unto the Lord for the most part.

And there will be believers who will not be presented as Holy and Blameless in their progressive sanctification.

1 Cor 3:14-15~~If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Charles C. Bing writes,

The concept of being presented to the Lord is found elsewhere
in the New Testament (2 Cor. 4:14; 11:2; Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 5:23;
Jude 24), and in every case (except 2 Cor. 4:14), the quality of the
presentation is in view. Romans 14:10 uses the same verb for
―present to indicate the believer‘s appearance before
the Lord for evaluation at the judgment seat of Christ. While a future presentation to the Lord is guaranteed for all believers, a favorable presentation before the Lord, in which they are holy,
blameless, and beyond reproach, is stated as the desirable goal for
all believers. While all believers will be presented to Christ fully
justified in position, not all will be blameless in experience (1 Cor.
3:13–15; 4:5; 1 John 2:28).

I fully agree with Charles.

What does the scripture say? "IF YOU CONTINUE IN THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL" That means one continues to trust with confident expectation in the promises of the gospel, not to have a certain level of religious doubt based upon the weakness of mans flesh and lawkeeping.
Just as Paul wrote "we are those who worship God in spirit and have no confidence in the flesh" The reason these doubters are so full of doubt is because they are trying to have confidence in their flesh (corrupt and sinful flesh) if I thought my salvation was based upon my flesh? I would have real doubts too. But its not! Its based upon the Grace of God and that grace is the ONLY power over the sin that dwells in the flesh.

 

[gr8grace]

Sorry, no. This verse is part of a greater discourse which starts at verse 17 after He healed a man on the Sabbath.

"The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. 16 And this was why the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did this on the sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working still, and I am working." 18 This was why the Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

He then continues with the discourse:

"Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you,..."

This discourse was obviously given to "the Jews", not to saved believers. If this isn't enough to convince you, in verses 37-40, in the same discourse, He chastises "them".

"37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life."

Obviously not spoken to believers. If so, OSAS is false because these "believers" refuse to come to Him.

Now the Father is telling believers about eternal security and the Son Is the one teaching. If we believe the Father and what is being said we will KNOW and believe in eternal security. If we do not believe in what the Father is telling us, we will not know eternal security and believe that we live in limbo and have no security from the Father.

Again, this is not even close to what the verse says, nor is it what you claimed in your last post. You said: "The judgment in this verse is an eternal judgement, so one must conclude that once the subject or object believes in the Lord Jesus Christ, he will never lose his salvation." This is your main point, that eternal security rests on faith in Christ alone. This verse does not even come close to making your point.

But I still see that no one from the conditional security camp will deal with the facts stated about Eph 2:8

If you will break down Eph 2:8 and prove the OP wrong about the Greek language then you will have a platform for my ears. So far nothing.

I did an exegesis on this passage, you ignored it. Why do I have to break down the Greek to know this verse doesn't back up your contention either? Here is what I wrote previously;

Take Eph. 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God."

Can I reject the gift? Yes or no. Can I accept the gift, then, at some point in the future, throw it away? Can't you see how this verse ONLY speaks to God's side of the relationship, not ours? This verse says faith is a gift from God and can't be earned. It isn't given on the basis of any WORKS OF THE LAW done, but by the Grace of God. It doesn't speak to the FACT that we can reject Him.

Yes there were unsaved people and jews in the audience. But John 5:24 is for believers only, anyone who has believed in Jesus Christ.
An unbeliever has not "passed from death to life". An unbeliever does not "have eternal life." An unbeliever WILL come into judgment. So this verse APPLYS to someone who has believed in the Fathers plan. And that plan is for Men to believe ON the Son.

This is NOT a salvation verse. It is not the mechanics of salvation in the context. It is the Principal of salvation here. By believing ON the Son, you believe the plan of the Father, and thereby have salvation forever and ever.

Eph 2:8 Why the Greek? It is the only inspired word. The reason it was inspired in the Greek is because the Greek is a VERY precise and commanding Language. If one knows it and studies it some, a lot of our presuppositions would melt away.

The reason your exegesis does not work is because it is Gods Gift to us, not ours to throw away(we might think we did).God holds up HIS side of the bargain. And the Spirit, Greek and a humble attitude will prove it to us.

The periphrastic perfect and the intensive perfect of saved In Eph 2:8 says, it is 100% finished in the past,100% percent Finished today and 100% finished in the Future.

That is what is being overlooked and denied. We can't change it. We can't even ask," can I throw it away?" Its 100% done.

To deny what the Spirit and the Greek says in this ONE little phrase and word is a detriment to any Christians walk.

 

[George Muller]

Ephesians begins as follows:

1 Paul, an Apostle of the Anointed Jesus (by the Will of God), to the Holy Ones in Ephesus… those faithful ones in the Anointed Jesus;...

then continues in chapter 2...:

1 For, you have died to the ways of sin and error 2 that you once walked in (the ways of this arrangement) when you used to follow the ruler of the power of the air… the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience

Not sure of your translation? Are you a Christian? Do you believe the accepted cannon of scriptures to be Gods Word, and Jesus Christ to be the crucified and only begotten Son of God?

Eph 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)