J
Jay T
Guest
[/quote:9960e]This the secret of satan's success, in the control of the modern Christian world, at the present time (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).dcookcan said:
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
K
Khristeeanos
Guest
I used to believe in OSAS.
Now I don't.
I was using a doctrine to justify my sinful lifestyle. I wanted my porn and my Jesus too!
:
The Gospel is the POWER of GOD to save us FROM OUR SINS (Matthew 1:21).
The grace of God teaches us to stop sinning according to Paul (Eph 4:20).
If we are saved by grace through faith, what happens to those who shipwreck their faith (or the faith of others - 1 Timothy)?
Are they still saved?
Then we have salvation apart from faith in Christ.
Now I don't.
I was using a doctrine to justify my sinful lifestyle. I wanted my porn and my Jesus too!
: The Gospel is the POWER of GOD to save us FROM OUR SINS (Matthew 1:21).
The grace of God teaches us to stop sinning according to Paul (Eph 4:20).
If we are saved by grace through faith, what happens to those who shipwreck their faith (or the faith of others - 1 Timothy)?
Are they still saved?
Then we have salvation apart from faith in Christ.
J
Jay T
Guest
You have learned the great lesson on Righteousness by Faith !Bonsai said:I used to believe in OSAS.
Now I don't.
I was using a doctrine to justify my sinful lifestyle. I wanted my porn and my Jesus too!
The Gospel is the POWER of GOD to save us FROM OUR SINS (Matthew 1:21).
The grace of God teaches us to stop sinning according to Paul (Eph 4:20).
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
I think people are forgetting, when comparing our salvation with marriage is that God knows the future. Therefore, God would know who was going to 'commit adultery' on him and who were not. If you knew that your soon-to-be husband or wife was going to fool around on you and you knew you couldn't hack it and want to divorce them would you still marry them?
dcookcan said:
What happens to the new creature born again from above, do you kill it? If you have sex with another man's wife, I have to doubt your salvation...wheat and tares.
How can the heart that God has uncircumcised be given it's skin back? At which point does one lose salvation?
Those who believe you can lose your salvation get to above Romans 5 and don't continue on reading.
Quote: The issue that is paramount is whether the saving work of Christ on the cross includes the safekeeping of the one who trusts Him, or not. This is the central and precise issue in the controversy. Either Christ did enough by His death concerning the believer's sins that it can be said that "there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" (though it is not said that there is no chastisement), or He did not. p. 274.
John 10:27-30: â€ÂMy sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand. My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.â€Â
When do the sheep stop hearing Christ's voice, what sin is it that separates us from the love of God and kills the new nature?
j
J
Jay T
Guest
Jay T said:You have learned the great lesson on Righteousness by Faith !Bonsai said:I used to believe in OSAS.
Now I don't.
I was using a doctrine to justify my sinful lifestyle. I wanted my porn and my Jesus too!
The Gospel is the POWER of GOD to save us FROM OUR SINS (Matthew 1:21).
The grace of God teaches us to stop sinning according to Paul (Eph 4:20).
If we could lose our salvation, every one of us would.
The question is not whether or not one can lose salvation, the question is whether or not your professed faith is real, thereby making your salvation sure. If your faith is not according to scripture, then the only thing that has been gained, and then lost, is in your imagination.
How can one lose something that he has never had? The mark of a true faith is perseverance. If you don't persevere, you have lost nothing, but you have exposed the truth about yourself.
Dave
The question is not whether or not one can lose salvation, the question is whether or not your professed faith is real, thereby making your salvation sure. If your faith is not according to scripture, then the only thing that has been gained, and then lost, is in your imagination.
How can one lose something that he has never had? The mark of a true faith is perseverance. If you don't persevere, you have lost nothing, but you have exposed the truth about yourself.
Dave
K
Khristeeanos
Guest
Jay T said:You have learned the great lesson on Righteousness by Faith !Bonsai said:I used to believe in OSAS.
Now I don't.
I was using a doctrine to justify my sinful lifestyle. I wanted my porn and my Jesus too!
The Gospel is the POWER of GOD to save us FROM OUR SINS (Matthew 1:21).
The grace of God teaches us to stop sinning according to Paul (Eph 4:20).
Yes, thank you. It is Jesus, not me.
K
Khristeeanos
Guest
When one chooses to deny their faith.Jason said:
I highlighted the important part - the condition of following Jesus in order to be under the promise of those that "shall never perish."
When they reject the faith. Or to use a Biblical term - to shipwreck their faith.
M
Merry Menagerie
Guest
Very good post
Bonsai said:
The condition doesn't exist without qualifier! Which is 'My sheep..." You can pick whatever you like out of this chp. to support your position, but it doesn't fly when you consider the whole.
[/quote:60a61]
A shipwrecked faith isn't a saving faith and never was one: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (KJV) The issue is clear, Arminians love the idea of freewill so much they'll do anything to the Scriptures to make it agree with them.
John Nelson Darby wrote: All men speak about freewill is nonsense - free and will do not go together - there is no will till a person is decided and determined. Man is perfectly free to will, as far as constraint by another goes; in truth, as far as man's faculties go, he cannot be otherwise, i.e., it is his own will where he has one - his body, his acts may be constrained, and fear may make him will as other inclinations would not have led him, but his will as will is always his own. The moral part of the matter does not lie there, save as having one's own will is sin, i.e., determining without reference to God, instead of obeying - the claim of independency to have a right to act supremely, without reference to another having authority over us - it is what determines the will, and makes it what is called "free," i.e., our own, in which sin lies - the power of such and such things over the heart. I admit this alleged freedom, i.e., the pretension to be independent of God, to be the very principle of sin - it is rejection of God and His authority, but the ally of this is "pleasant to the eyes, good for food, a tree to be desired," etc. - confidence in God making us happy lost, and so objects desired, and then will in activity. Only, lust having thus come in when will is set right, the lusts remain as a hindrance, and power is needed to deliver. Does not this amount to the will not being a proper faculty of the soul at all? Something existing, even when inert? Will is "I" in the determination of activity - there is none when it is not determined; when choice is made, then there is will (i.e., may be), the lust or desire, which has gained the mastery over "I," leads "I" to intentional activity towards the object desired. And it is the same in God, only the objects of intentional activity are not, of course, any desire which moves Him in the object - save Christ - but the creatures of His own wisdom. He is Author from Himself.
The fruit of the Arminians can be found in liberal main stream churches. They deny God's power! If man can resist God's will, and reject God's plan...then even the Scriptures are unsafe! The prophets could've wrote whatever they'd like...they can refuse to do God's will. Do a little diggin' and you'll find that where liberalism can be found, so can the Arminians fall teaching.
j
J
Jay T
Guest
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living.Jason said:
Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected.
When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33.
And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.
All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life.
The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
J
Jay T
Guest
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living.Jason said:
Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected.
When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. The Lord declared to Moses: "Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book." Exodus 32:33.
And says the prophet Ezekiel: "When the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, . . . all his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned." Ezekiel 18:24.
All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life.
The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh(sin), the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...Revelation 3:5.
T
thessalonian
Guest
Merry Menagerie said:
Very good post
One could say, if you could gain your salvation everyone would. Apparently you are not a universalist. The logic does not follow that if you could loose it everyone would. Anyone who keeps his eyes fixed on Jesus will in fact not loose their salvation because his grace will uphold them and allow them to persevere to the end. He does not force us to continue to follow him however and grace is not irresistable. Sorry.
Peter had faith. It says that he was born from above in Matt 16:15-19. Yet he denied the Lord three times. Now Jesus says "if anyone denies me before men I will deny him before my Father" Matt 10:32,33. He even cursed when asked if he knew Jesus. How many times would Peter have had to deny our Lord for Jesus words in Matt 10:32-33. Fortunatley by the grace of God Peter was restored to faith.
Paul does not speak as you OSAS types do. He notes that he has to trudge on so that he might not be disqualified from the prize.
1 Cor 9
23. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.
He is preaching the Gospel. Therefore it is the promises of the Gospel that he will be disqualified from such that he disciplines his body to assure that he is not disqualified.
The part about exposing the truth about yourself is open to debate. The Psalm's speak of the "friend whom I trusted" and it is evident that it is a prophecy about Judas betrayal. Can God be fooled in to trusting someone? Can a man who is not saved be called a friend of God? I don't believe so.
God Bless
A
aiki
Guest
Hey, all.
There is a difference between salvation and heavenly reward. Paul makes this distinction in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Thessalonian's quotation from 1 Corinthians 9 may be made to suggest contingent salvation, but it is actually speaking of reward for righteous deeds, not salvation itself. In fact, only a few verses before the ones Thessalonians quotes from 1 Corithians 9, Paul writes of the matter of reward as it relates to his preaching. This provides important context within which to understand his race analogy as speaking of reward for living righteously, not salvation. If one really wanted to mess with Paul's race analogy, one could even propose that only one person will be saved (see vs. 24) and not just that one can lose one's salvation.
:
Uh, I don't think so. Paul may be disqualified from the rewards of preaching the Gospel (which is first and foremost the saving of the lost), not from salvation itself.
I think Merry's remark about "exposing the truth about yourself" was in relation to people, not God.
In Christ, Aiki.
There is a difference between salvation and heavenly reward. Paul makes this distinction in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Thessalonian's quotation from 1 Corinthians 9 may be made to suggest contingent salvation, but it is actually speaking of reward for righteous deeds, not salvation itself. In fact, only a few verses before the ones Thessalonians quotes from 1 Corithians 9, Paul writes of the matter of reward as it relates to his preaching. This provides important context within which to understand his race analogy as speaking of reward for living righteously, not salvation. If one really wanted to mess with Paul's race analogy, one could even propose that only one person will be saved (see vs. 24) and not just that one can lose one's salvation.
: Uh, I don't think so. Paul may be disqualified from the rewards of preaching the Gospel (which is first and foremost the saving of the lost), not from salvation itself.
I think Merry's remark about "exposing the truth about yourself" was in relation to people, not God.
In Christ, Aiki.
T
thessalonian
Guest
First I agree there is reward as well as salvation. But I do not believe that is what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor 9.
1 Cor 15 speaks of contingent salvation and it is with regard to the Gospel.
1Cor.15
[1] Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand,
[2] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain.
If is a conditional so one cannot say that Paul does not speak about conditional salvation with regard to the Gospel. Note that they recieved it and must hold to it. The conditional is holding to the Gospel.
Now back to 1 cor 9
1 Cor 9
23. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Yes, it is about reward but is it just about reward?
[16] For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
Woe? Woe to someone who just looses their reward? They go to heaven? That's not Woe.
Blessings
1 Cor 15 speaks of contingent salvation and it is with regard to the Gospel.
1Cor.15
[1] Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand,
[2] by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain.
If is a conditional so one cannot say that Paul does not speak about conditional salvation with regard to the Gospel. Note that they recieved it and must hold to it. The conditional is holding to the Gospel.
Now back to 1 cor 9
1 Cor 9
23. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
Yes, it is about reward but is it just about reward?
[16] For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
Woe? Woe to someone who just looses their reward? They go to heaven? That's not Woe.
Blessings
U
unred typo
Guest
duplicate... sorry.... :
:
U
unred typo
Guest
Did you ever think that the reward might be eternal life?
The gift of God was the possibility to be forgiven of your sins, not the ability to continue to sin without fear of punishment. Jesus died so you could be perfect in him, but if you don’t obey and follow him, you aren’t in Christ at all, he is not your master and you are yet in your sin. Consider how these promises are conditional:
Romans 6:22-23 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
1Ti 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
1 John 3:14-15 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 5:11 -12-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
All we who were taught OSAS were lied to. We need to wake up, it’s really our eternity at stake!
Exactly. Very good point. Woe indeed.
:o