OSAS....Not !

[aiki]

Hello, hello!

Thess:

Lot's of scripture their Aiki.

Inasmuch as I was addressing your comments and thinking, Scripture was unneccesary. :wink:

Seems your better with cryptic comments about Catholicism than you are with the word of God. How is Catholicism every wind of Doctrine?

Well, I didn't intend to be cryptic. Metaphorical, maybe, but not cryptic. :D

How is Catholicism every wind of doctrine? I don't know...Did I say that? I think I referred to Roman Catholicism more as a tornado than merely a "wind".

Here's a quotation from a book I've been reading recently that might help to better express my point:

"Standing before Emperor Charles V at the famous Diet of Worms in 1521, Martin Luther, recently excommunicated from the church and now about to be declared a criminal of the state, had a profound question addressed to him: 'Who are you, Luther, to go against fifteen hundred years of the teaching of the church?' His reply was simply to deny the assumption; there was no unanimity of teaching in the church that stretched over the centuries. The teachers of the church had contradicted themselves. " - "Our Legacy: The History of Christian Doctrine", by John D. Hannah.

I can only think of one group that fits that. Even Martin Luther applied the verse to the Protestantism that he started.

Did he really? Do you have a quotable, authoritative source on that assertion?

It cannot in any manner be applied to Catholicism except by the very ignornant.

Well, I would hardly call Luther "very ignorant". As the above quotation indicates, Luther found the doctrine of the RC church to be quite "windy". :wink: :-D

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[thessalonian]

Hello, hello!

Thess:

Lot's of scripture their Aiki.

Inasmuch as I was addressing your comments and thinking, Scripture was unneccesary. :wink:

Yes, it usually is with Protestants. Even when I quote scripture 5:1 with them they find it "uncessary". Very odd that I get mostly their own words and handwaving.

How is Catholicism every wind of doctrine? I don't know...Did I say that? I think I referred to Roman Catholicism more as a tornado than merely a "wind".

No I suppose you didn't. You it seems were just trying to be funny and perhaps you were alluding to some of Luther's crudity. Hardly appropriate for Christian discourse. He was a vulgar man.

Here's a quotation from a book I've been reading recently that might help to better express my point:

"Standing before Emperor Charles V at the famous Diet of Worms in 1521, Martin Luther, recently excommunicated from the church and now about to be declared a criminal of the state, had a profound question addressed to him: 'Who are you, Luther, to go against fifteen hundred years of the teaching of the church?' His reply was simply to deny the assumption; there was no unanimity of teaching in the church that stretched over the centuries. The teachers of the church had contradicted themselves. " - "Our Legacy: The History of Christian Doctrine", by John D. Hannah.

Yes, I know. If Luther says it it must be true. You might think his writings would some day be canonized. After all it wasn't as if Protestantism had a fixed canon.

Did he really? Do you have a quotable, authoritative source on that assertion?

It's been a while. I'll see if I can find it.

Well, I would hardly call Luther "very ignorant". As the above quotation indicates, Luther found the doctrine of the RC church to be quite "windy". :wink: :-D

Aren't you funny. But these are not funny matters. ONE MAN deciding that he is the authority and the Church be damned. He would not even put up with others who disagreed with him on scripture. Further he was prone to vulgarity. The scriptures say "you shall know them by their fruits. The fruits of this homely monk were divisions and discord. But people like you hold him up as the greatest theologian that ever lived. It's silly.

 

[Dave...]

So Dave, how does one fall from a tree he was never in? How is a branch cut off that was never on? You can't ignore other verses and make a doctrine and then use it as a trump card. By the way Catholicism does not teach that we earn our salvation.

Keep studying thess. I'm not ignoring verses. I've seen and considered all of them. The Catholic church does teach a works based salvation. They try to hide that fact by playing word games.

Ask them...Are you save by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone?

A true Catholic will never answer yes to that question.

Dave

 

[thessalonian]

Keep studying thess. I'm not ignoring verses. I've seen and considered all of them. The Catholic church does teach a works based salvation. They try to hide that fact by playing word games.

Ask them...Are you save by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone?

A true Catholic will never answer yes to that question.

Dave

Because it is false, unless the faith alone is understood to be an active faith that produces good works. We are saved by grace alone. We are saved by Christ alone. The problem is that in the New Testament we see that 273 times the word faith is mentioned. Yet it is never (oops once, james 2:24, but it's not by faith alone so it won't help you) paired with the word alone. If I am mistaken show me where.

Faith without works is dead. God gives us the grace to do good works. Grace is not irresistable or everyone go to heaven since all men recieve grace. Now if a man recieves the grace to do good works and does not do them is God to blame? Let me put this another way so that you might grasp it:

Matt.25
[14] "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property;
[15] to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
[16] He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more.
[17] So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more.
[18] But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
[19] Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
[20] And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, `Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.'
[21] His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.'
[22] And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, `Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.'
[23] His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.'
[24] He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, `Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow;
[25] so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'
[26] But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed?
[27] Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.
[28] So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents.
[29] For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
[30] And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'

God however deserves the credit for the good that we do because he gave us the grace to do it and on judgement day those good works that he essentially gave us will be significant to our salvation unless you deny that Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, sheep and the goats is a part of the Bible. Faith alone is a lie. "Not everyone who says "lord, lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who DO the will of my Father". Faith WORKING in love is God's plan of salvation. Ain't it grand. If I am going through this to fast and you can't keep up, let me know. I know it is hard when you have thought your sinners prayer or Lord Lord was gonna get you in for all these years.

God bless

 

[Dave...]

Evidence does not justify us.

Peace

 

[aiki]

Hey, Thess!

Look, I don't want to be jerk about how I deal with you, but I do like to keep things light when possible. But, I guess you take yourself pretty seriously so I'll try and do the same.

Even when I quote scripture 5:1 with them they find it "uncessary". Very odd that I get mostly their own words and handwaving.

Scripture 5:1? Are you refering to the "every wind of doctrine" verse? No, that can't be, the reference for that verse is Ephesians 4:14. Hmmm...

You it seems were just trying to be funny and perhaps you were alluding to some of Luther's crudity. Hardly appropriate for Christian discourse. He was a vulgar man.

Actually, until your last post I hadn't thought of any gastrointestinal connections to the term "wind". I had a bit of a chuckle when I read how you'd taken my phrasing.

Luther was a vulgar man? How so and who says?

Yes, I know. If Luther says it it must be true. You might think his writings would some day be canonized. After all it wasn't as if Protestantism had a fixed canon.

Hey, hey, now! You were just using him to slam Protestantism a couple of posts ago. Kind of a fast about-face on Luther, eh? If you think he's so vulgar and entirely too sacred to Protestants, maybe you ought not to use him to make your arguments!

Aren't you funny. But these are not funny matters. ONE MAN deciding that he is the authority and the Church be damned.

One man pointing to the obvious truth of Scripture, you mean. And no, it isn't funny -- not at all -- its terribly, terribly serious. Its so serious I can't even talk about it. Man, how serious this is...!

He would not even put up with others who disagreed with him on scripture. Further he was prone to vulgarity. The scriptures say "you shall know them by their fruits. The fruits of this homely monk were divisions and discord.

I think it was Christ who said, "I come not to bring peace, but a sword" He went on in Matthew 10:34-36 to explain how divisive his truth would be. I wonder what you must think of his fruit!

But people like you hold him up as the greatest theologian that ever lived. It's silly.

Did I hold Luther up as the greatest theologian who ever lived? Really? Where?

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[thessalonian]

Evidence does not justify us.

Peace

Where did I say it did? I said grace justifies. The grace the produces the works has power, do you agree?

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


How can faith even justify us? Faith, i.e. a statement proclainng Jesus as Lord, is evidence of grace is it not? Do you say that the grace that produces faith has power while the grace that produces works does not? If faith is not evidence of grace, i.e what God has produced in us by grace, then faith is something we produce. Thus our salvaiton is not by grace alone, but by something we produce that God responds to with grace. Of course works without faith are powerless as well. For there is no grace.
However if the work is not performed the grace is cast aside and has no effect in maintaining the strength of the soul.

Do you not see that the works that we do that give glory to God (i.e. him working in us) are very powerful, but only because of the grace that produces them? For your statements on Catholicism to hold true you would have to say that we believe in works alone. We do not for all works show the grace and power of God working in us to our salvation.

Blessings

 

[Vic C.]

Thess... can you provide us with your definition of grace? Thanks. 8-)

 

[thessalonian]

Thess... can you provide us with your definition of grace? Thanks. 8-)

Grace is not just God being nice and overlooking things. It is the method by which he actually brings about his will in the world in and through us. There is not one type of grace, otherwise the soul that is moved toward Christ is in the same state as the soul in Christ. Rather there is internal and external grace, for instance. I guess the Catholic Dictionary can answer it better than I.


http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd03684.htm

grace
(Latin: gratia, favor)

In its widest meaning, the term signifies any gratuitous gift of God to a rational creature, the bestowal of which is motivated by divine benevolence, whether the gift be natural or supernatural, internal or external to the recipient. In its strict and ordinary sense, however, grace is a supernatural gift of God's beneficence, gratuitously bestowed upon a rational creature (angel or man), for the ultimate purpose of fitting the recipient for life eternal. It may be inward or external, as is explained under these titles: Inward grace is either actual or habitual, according as it consists in a transitory help conferred for the performance of a good act, or in an abiding perfection elevating the recipient in a manner to a divine plane of being. This latter is usually called sanctifying grace, because of its formal effect on the recipient. Its very presence sanctifies him, makes him holy, a child of God, and an heir of heaven. Sanctifying grace is always accompanied by the infused virtues and the gifts of the Holy Ghost, both of which share in the general nature of supernatural grace. They are permanent perfections of the recipient's spiritual faculties" intellect and will, bearing a somewhat similar relation to sanctifying grace as the natural faculties and their dispositions bear to the soul. Hence by sanctifying grace, and its concomitant gifts, the recipient is in a manner constituted a supernatural nature, a complete radical principle of salutary action. In reference to its origin, a distinction is made between the grace of God and the grace of Christ. All grace comes indeed from God, but since the fall every grace bestowed upon human beings is based on the merits of Christ. Before the fall Adam received grace directly from God, without reference to the Saviour of mankind; and so did the angels whilst they were oh probation. But now we, the children of the fallen Adam, receive grace only through Christ Our Lord. Grace is so necessary that without it we cannot do anything for life eternal. Hence the words of Christ: "Without me you can do nothing" (John 15). See also:
actual grace
antecedent grace
efficacious grace
external grace
fullness of grace
habitual grace
sufficient grace

Your welcome.

Blessings

 

[Dave...]

Ok, now, if anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God, our faith, our works, then what is it from grace that justifies us?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10


Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 2 Timothy 1:9

We are called to salvation apart from our works.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

We are saved apart from our works.

Being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, Philippians 1:11-12

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5

We produce fruit (good works) as a result of our salvation.

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

Never have any works justified any saved person.

We are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

Dave

 

[thessalonian]

Ok, now, if anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God, our faith, our works, then what is it from grace that justifies us?

Why grace of coure. The Holy Spirit justifies sanctifies with grace.

[/quote]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 [/quote]

Yes, one is saved when he is baptized. The works must follow by the grace given or there is no salvation. You keep ignoring Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats.

Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 2 Timothy 1:9

Those who do good deeds unto everlasting glory are in fact in grace, ie. saved or their works would be worthless as filthy rags. But you can't ignore Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats.

We are called to salvation apart from our works.

We have to be saved apart from works in the past sense, i.e. when we become a Christian. Saved and salvation are not the same thing though being saved leads to salvation if one perseveres in doing good. Read Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

Ah baptism, the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

We are saved apart from our works.

Being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, Philippians 1:11-12

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5

Keep on abiding.

We produce fruit (good works) as a result of our salvation.

As a result of grace when we are in grace I would say. Works are a result of grace. But grace rejected leaves on dead. Faith without works is dead.

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

It never ceases to amaze me how you guys skip over Romans 2 (4-8 also Matt 25, sheep and the goats) to get to Romans 3. Do you know what works of the law are? Are they charitiable deeds? Read Is 1 sometime. There is a clear distinction between works of the law and acts of charity. God repudiates the very works of the law he instituted if they are not followed up by charity.


[11] "What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of he-goats.
[12] "When you come to appear before me,
who requires of you
this trampling of my courts?
[13] Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies --
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
[14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me,
I am weary of bearing them.
[15] When you spread forth your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
[16] Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
[17] learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
[18] "Come now, let us reason together,
says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
[19] If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
[20] But if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

Now Galations is all about works of the law, i.e. circumcision, etc. So that even emphasizes my point above. Thanks for posting this.

Never have any works justified any saved person.

Grace that produces works justifies. That is what James says in James 2:24.

We are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.

Your sounding like a broken record here and have done nothing to convince me I a wrong. Where is that phrase "faith alone" in the new testament. You would think someone would have fit it in out of 273 times using the word faith. Ooops, forgot again, James did. Sorry.

Dave[/quote]

 

[Klee shay]

Faith without works is dead. God gives us the grace to do good works.

I was thinking about this the other day and the reason why faith without works is dead, is because faith is what allows God to work not men. God gives us the grace so that he can work through us. When we have no faith he cannot work, and when we work in stead for God he knows we have no faith in him.

So to me the whole faith without works is dead, was a comment about faith not works. I read something in Samuel II last night which pointed towards the same thing.

We all know how David favoured the Lord and served him most diligantly as King while God appointed him. Having retrieved the Ark of the Covenant back to his kingdom, David was overjoyed and wanted to do something special for the Ark.

God knew all however and he spoke to Nathan the prophet one night, saying...

II Samuel 7

5. Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the Lord, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

6. Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle.

7. In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

I'll cut to the part which really shows God's intentions however...

12. And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish HIS kingdom.

13. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men.

15. But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

This clearly states that God valued David's faith but that he had a purpose for it. For through David's faith, Jesus would come to build a house for God's name. This did not diminish David's faith any, in fact, it justified it. For in David's obedience to God would come the seed to establish the throne of God's kingdom forever.

One could say it was David's work which brought him to that point, but it wasn't. For every step of the way God proceeded him. God worked. Although David held the sword and commanded the men it was God who delivered the enemies into their hands. David weilded the stone which killed Golith but it was God who showed him what to do.

David did all these great things not because he could do it himself, but because he had faith that God could do it for him. This is a great example of faith and works. For what works could David have achieved without faith in God? The works were God's but the faith was David's.

King Saul before David did works too, but they were not justified by his faith in God. God found another vessel in David whose faith would allow him to work. So it isn't a matter of who does the work but whose heart is prepared to let God do the work? David supplied the muscle but it was God who supplied the will.

Without our will to let God work, of course faith is dead. Our will to let God work comes from having faith in Jesus as his son. He has built the house for his father's name and God is establishing his kingdom of eternity through Christ's works.

 

[Solo]

[quote="Dave...":6fd4c]It's hard for people to deal with the fact that they cannot earn their salvation.

So True !
Millions in the Christian world try to work their way into the favor of Jesus Christ, by Sunday worship services.
They figure if they honor the day He arose from the grave, that it will pleasing to Him.
BUT...Jesus said...."IF you love me, keep my commandments", (John 14:15).

Those who love Jesus will keep the 4th commandment, (7th day Sabbath), as their [sign] of loyalty and love for Him.
"And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God"

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"[/quote:6fd4c]

Jesus addressed that he fulfilled the Law. He gave added measure to the commandments in Matthew 5. I will post some of these and make a comment about the sabbath.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17-19

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:
Matthew 5:21-22

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matthew 5:27-28

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Matthew 5:33-37

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Matthew 5:38-42

43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matthew 5:43-45

Jesus expounds upon that which ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time such as 'thou shalt not kill', 'thou shalt not commit adultery', etc. I picture Jesus saying the following, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work: But I say unto you, keep all days holy, not working for yourself and being about your business, but working in the Spirit being about the business of God almighty, maker of heaven and earth; for the day of rest comes for those who overcome the world."

 

[thessalonian]

Faith without works is dead. God gives us the grace to do good works.

[quote:ace45]I was thinking about this the other day and the reason why faith without works is dead, is because faith is what allows God to work not men. God gives us the grace so that he can work through us. When we have no faith he cannot work, and when we work in stead for God he knows we have no faith in him.

Amen. I do believe that is exactly what I have been saying over and over and over.

Eph 3
19] and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fulness of God.
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

So to me the whole faith without works is dead, was a comment about faith not works. I read something in Samuel II last night which pointed towards the same thing.

[/quote:ace45]

False dichotomy. Faith without works is dead. How can this verse not be about works. That does not mean it is not about faith. It is about faith and about works.

Gal.5
[6] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Works done in faith have merrit. The merit is in Christ Jesus who gives us the grace to do them. You cannot ignore that faith MUST produce works or it is a dead faith.

Mostly we agree with the rest, except that you cannot say David did not do the works. Yes it is true God did them. This does not mean that David did not. God worked through David. This does not mean that David did not work. God makes our work effective. Without him we accomlish little and it is of no value. With him we can do all things.

Blessings

 

[Dave...]

Why grace of coure. The Holy Spirit justifies sanctifies with grace.

Grace through faith, not of works. Ephesians 2:8-10

Yes, one is saved when he is baptized.

Please specify what you mean by baptism.

The works must follow by the grace given or there is no salvation.

You can have works without faith, but you cannot have faith with out works. Still, it's the faith that justifies, not the works i.e. evidence.

Those who do good deeds unto everlasting glory are in fact in grace, ie. saved or their works would be worthless as filthy rags. But you can't ignore Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats. ...We have to be saved apart from works in the past sense, i.e. when we become a Christian. Saved and salvation are not the same thing though being saved leads to salvation if one perseveres in doing good. Read Romans 2:4-8 and Matt 25, the sheep and the goats.

Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 2 Timothy 1:9

We are called to salvation apart from our works.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

We are saved apart from our works.

Being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. But I want you to know, brethren, that the things which happened to me have actually turned out for the furtherance of the gospel, Philippians 1:11-12

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. John 15:4-5

We produce fruit (good works) as a result of our salvation.

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:20

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

Never have any works justified any saved person.

We are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. this will result in the works that were set aside for us to do...fruits. Still it is the faith that justifies, not the evidence of it.

Dave quoted:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

Thess. said.
Ah baptism, the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Again, hiding behind the word baptism, while not specifying what you mean, shows a deliberate attempt to deceive readers. Please specify. No more games, ok?

It never ceases to amaze me how you guys skip over Romans 2 (4-8 also Matt 25, sheep and the goats) to get to Romans 3. Do you know what works of the law are? Are they charitiable deeds? Read Is 1 sometime. There is a clear distinction between works of the law and acts of charity. God repudiates the very works of the law he instituted if they are not followed up by charity.

Then you believe that acts of charity earn salvation.

Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
[17] learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
[18] "Come now, let us reason together,
says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
[19] If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
[20] But if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."

How do we wash ourselves? Not by doing all these deeds.

"Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean": There is only one way to do this. By faith in Jesus.

Dave quoted:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

Thess. answers:
Now Galations is all about works of the law, i.e. circumcision, etc. So that even emphasizes my point above. Thanks for posting this.

Read that passage again. What are we justified from?

A) Faith in Jesus Christ plus works of charity.

B) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

See, what you're not getting, Thess, is that if you make works of charity a necessary element to gain salvation, then it does become a work of the Law i.e. circumcision, and all the scripture about law that i'm posting does then apply. :wink:

Grace that produces works justifies. That is what James says in James 2:24.

The Catholic go to verse. Look closer, study the context, and if you still don't see it i'll cut and paste the answer that was given to others here before.

Your sounding like a broken record here and have done nothing to convince me I a wrong. Where is that phrase "faith alone" in the new testament. You would think someone would have fit it in out of 273 times using the word faith. Ooops, forgot again, James did. Sorry.

Thess, which is most likely. When you see the word 'Faith' in scripture, does it mean 'Faith', as in faith alone? Or does it means faith plus works?

When I see the word 'faith', I take it to mean faith. So the phrase "faith alone" is not adding, only emphasizing. When you say that the word 'faith' means 'faith plus works of the law', that is, in fact adding.

Dave

 

[thessalonian]

Grace through faith, not of works. Ephesians 2:8-10

The context of the verse is initial justification. Remember I said BEFORE we are saved our works are wothless as filthy rags.

Please specify what you mean by baptism.

Come now, surely you know what baptism is. You know "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you SHALL RECIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT".

You can have works without faith, but you cannot have faith with out works. Still, it's the faith that justifies, not the works i.e. evidence.

"Why do you say Lord, Lord and do not do as I tell you". Faith allows justification to take place. Justifaction is not by OUR FAITH but by the action of the Holy Spirit upon our souls. i.e. grace. Faith allows it to happen because it opens the soul up to the will of God, which is that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

We are called to salvation apart from our works.

We have been saved apart from works. Salvation however is a walk as well as a talk. Now if "saved = salvation" I would agree. But salvation is the result of perseverence in grace. It is not a one time act but an end of the life result of faith.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:5

We are saved apart from our works.

I believe I said that. But we are saved to do good works. The problem with your theology that you won't acknowledge is that we sin after we are saved and those sins need to be forgiven. Don't give me this hoeky story about FUTURE sins being forgiven. It isn't possible. God does not grant forgiveness before a sin. Now these sins need to be justified and that is done by the sacraments of Eucharist and confession, which are about grace.

We produce fruit (good works) as a result of our salvation.

As a result of walking in faith. Do you think God gives you grace to do good works and it is possible for you not to do them? What are the consequences of this. If one continuously refuses to do the good that God wants him to do and gives him the grace to do, is there no consequence?

Never have any works justified any saved person.

Works allow the grace of God to work in us. Virtue counteracts vice. If one does not do good, the grace of Christ cannot work in his heart, helping him to overcome sin and unrightousness.

We are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. this will result in the works that were set aside for us to do...fruits. Still it is the faith that justifies, not the evidence of it.

Well if faith without works is dead then it is not faith alone but faith that produces fruit right. That is not faith alone. Faith alone is exemplfied by the verse "why do you call me Lord Lord and not do as I say.".

Again, hiding behind the word baptism, while not specifying what you mean, shows a deliberate attempt to deceive readers. Please specify. No more games, ok?

Games? Hiding? Silly. Deliberate attempt to deceive? Sounds like a personal attack to me. Sounds like character assasination. You don't even know me Dave. I thought every Christian knew what baptism is. It's not my fault you don't read the Bible.

Then you believe that acts of charity earn salvation.

You must produce fruit to be saved. Isn't that what Romans 2:4-8 says. We will be judged by our deeds. Every single verse I can think of in the Bible that talks about judgement includes works in some fashion.

"Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean": There is only one way to do this. By faith in Jesus.

THose who do works that are pleasing to the Lord are saved already. I agree. But if they do not do good will they be saved? I.e. if they persist in doing evil. There are only two things one can do, Dave, good or evil. Now if one is consistently doing evil will they be saved? Do you deny that works are produced by grace? Why do you continuously deny that this grace has any power?

B) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. Galatians 2:16

What are works of the law Dave? Is giving a child a glass of water a work of the law?

Mark.9
[41] For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

Tell me. Is one sanctified by works?

See, what you're not getting, Thess, is that if you make works of charity a necessary element to gain salvation, then it does become a work of the Law i.e. circumcision, and all the scripture about law that i'm posting does then apply. :wink:

What I require is that we let God's grace work in and flow through our lives, trusting in him to bring us to salvation after we are saved. Leading us through the desert of life to the promised land. You say, we are already at the promised land when we "get saved". Now how does on do that again. What are the steps Dave? I trust God to lead me through my justification when I sin and sanctification when I don't.

The Catholic go to verse. Look closer, study the context, and if you still don't see it i'll cut and paste the answer that was given to others here before.

The Catholic go to the verse????? That's kind of incomprehensible. So is this the infallible obvuscation you are going to give me. Faith without works is dead Dave. " Jesus asks why do you say "Lord, Lord" and do not do what I say. " . It's pretty clear that Jesus expects us to act upon our belief or it is dead. I.e. you go to hell. Not a pretty place.

Thess, which is most likely. When you see the word 'Faith' in scripture, does it mean 'Faith', as in faith alone? Or does it means faith plus works?

When I see the word 'faith', I take it to mean faith. So the phrase "faith alone" is not adding, only emphasizing. When you say that the word 'faith' means 'faith plus works of the law', that is, in fact adding.

Well considering he puts it with the word alone in James 2:24 but puts the word NOT before it there, I would say that faith that is not acted upon does not justify a man. The passage shows a continuing justification also.

The thing you don't understand Dave is the works don't save. The grace does. But the grace is not effective if it is not worked out in love. If the grace is resisted it is non-effective, thus contributing nothing to our salvation. The works must be performed in order to let the grace work just like the faith must be there to let the grace work.


Dave[/quote]

 

[Klee shay]

False dichotomy. Faith without works is dead. How can this verse not be about works. That does not mean it is not about faith. It is about faith and about works.

I guess it would help if I gave the perspective I was coming from. Man's perspective.

This verse was not about man's works. Faith without God's works is dead. Man can work till his fingers bleed or until he loses his life; but if he calls himself a follower of Christ and yet does not believe Christ is the one who works - then his faith is dead.

For a man cannot save himself by works, only by faith in Christ's work on the cross.

Adam's punishment for disobeying God was to work the land. God made him work. Eve's punishment for disobeying God was to travail in childbirth. God made her give birth. These are all works God gave us as punishment, therefore what work can man do to save himself?

Work is the punishment but faith in his Son was the liberty. When Christ works God is pleased. When man believes in Christ then God is pleased also. For in believing in the son we believe in the father who bore him. Anything by man's hand will come to nought but anything by the Lord's hand comes to the kingdom of God.

 

[aiki]

Thess:

The problem with your theology that you won't acknowledge is that we sin after we are saved and those sins need to be forgiven. Don't give me this hoeky story about FUTURE sins being forgiven. It isn't possible. God does not grant forgiveness before a sin.

Have you ever noticed that 1 John 1:9 doesn't say, "If we ask for forgiveness of our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins..."? No, instead it says, "If we confess our sins..." Confession in this instance is simply agreeing with God that our sinful deeds are actually sinful. When we do this He automatically applies His forgiveness, which was obtained for us by the death of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. When Christ paid for our sins those many years ago, it was then that we were forgiven of our sins. The application of this forgiveness, which is already ours, occurs upon our confession of our sin. This is sorta' like the insurance on your house. If and when your house burns down, there is money available for the purchase of another house already secured for you through your insurance. You don't have to ask for insurance, for you are already insured. You only need to state that your house has burned down and your house insurance is applied to you (I'm speaking generally here for the sake of the analogy). In the same way, when we sin, we don't need to ask for forgiveness for our sins; it is already ours, obtained 2000 years ago on our behalf by Christ. Instead, we simply confess our sin - say that our "house has burned down" - and our "sin insurance", or forgiveness, is automatically applied to us.

You should read Hebrews - especially chapter 10 - if you think our sins are not already forgiven. Might change your mind.

Works allow the grace of God to work in us.

Nope. You've got the cart before the horse, here. God's grace is what enables good works, not the other way 'round.

Heb. 12:28 - "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear." - italics mine

This verse is clear: let us have grace and then we may serve God.

Well if faith without works is dead then it is not faith alone but faith that produces fruit right. That is not faith alone. Faith alone is exemplfied by the verse "why do you call me Lord Lord and not do as I say".

There are some examples in Scripture of people who are saved and who sin terribly, but are not counted as lost, Thess.

In Matthew 5:19 men who teach others to break the law of God are not expelled from heaven but only called least in it.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 speak of men who through their teaching build upon the foundation of the person of Christ in a way that does not endure God's fiery testing at the final judgment. Their teaching work is destroyed but they are not because their foundation, Jesus Christ, is indestructible.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." (vs. 15)

In 1 Corinthians 5 the apostle Paul judges a man in the Corinthian assembly who is engaging in incest. He is "given over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (vs. 5). The penalty for his wickedness, though, is not the loss of his salvation, but the physical ravaging of his flesh by the evil one. In 2 Corinthians we are informed that the man repented and was to be received back into the Corinthian church fellowship.

I don't think the matter of one's salvation has anything to do with one's behaviour. It has solely to do with the faithfulness of the One who saves us. He will "never leave us nor forsake us" (Heb. 13:5).

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

It's GOD'S WORK!!! Come on now! Why are people so arrogent to think that OUR MEASLEY FILTHY WORKS that God sees as 'rags' is going to merit us salvation or grace?

You've got to be kidding me!!! If that was the case I would have opted out of this deal A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

Thankfully, it's not about us! It's never about us! It's God's work in us not our works!

Now repeat after me IT'S GOD'S WORK THAT SAVES
IT'S GOD'S WORK THAT SAVES. IT'S GOD'S WORK THAT SAVES
IT'S GOD'S WORK THAT SAVES.

Kinda gives the glory back over to the one who actually deserves it right? How dare anyone take the glory for themselves!!

I'm just getting so sick and tired hearing about people and their works. Don't you know they dont interest God? Seriously! God doesn't give a hoot about your filthy works. What makes you think your works are better than Christ's works anyway? Extremely arrogant and self-glorifying indeed!

Off my soapbox now!

 

[Cure of Ars]

You guys are not fully understanding the Catholic position. Salvation, Biblically speaking, is like an inheritance that is gained by a slave child that is adopted by a rich father. There is nothing that a slave can do to earn the privilege of being a part of the family and there is no amount of work that would be able to earn the inheritance that is mine as being a member of the family. It is totally a free gift. But being in a family there are responsibilities. The father gives responsibility depending on the ability of each child and he also gives the means for the child to do the work. The child cannot say that I do not need to do work and I do not have to obey and please the father. Work (by grace) is required to remain in the family and there are sins that could exclude someone from the family if that family member does not repent from sin and is not sorry for the sin committed. Biblically speaking one can forfeit their inheritance and although the father will always have love for his children he will not force them to be a part of the family.

So to sum up, no amount of work can earn the right to be in the family and no amount of work can earn the inheritance. But if one does not do the work, by God’s grace, a child in the family they will forfeit their inheritance.

The Bible talks about two types of systems. One saves the other one does not. On system is the system of the slave that tries to obligate God to give him salvation by his good works. These works Paul calls “works of the law†but these works cannot save because it is impossible to make God a debtor to a slave. This system does not have God's grace.

The other system is the system of grace through faith in Christ. Through faith in Christ we enter into the family of God and gain the inheritance of salvation. But by grace "faith working through love" is needed to remain in the family. This is the basics. If you don't understand what I just said then you don't understand the Catholic faith in regards to salvation.