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OSAS The Truth

I said:
- Regarding "falling away" [αποστασία] in 2Th 2:3, I believe they are mere professors of faith and not born from above. They hovered near God and the Church, wanting to be like both, but never entering into either.
- Regarding those who "depart" [αφίστημι] from the faith in 1Tim 4:1, are those who stand away from God never having belonged to Him. They refused to believe.​

to which you replied:

Good. Now, do you think that a person can "show" or "prove" his faith is a "true faith" by his actions? Is this how you would interpret James 2?

I will not judge whether or not a person is born from above.

Proof of faith and having eternal life are two different matters.

It doesn't matter what I "think."
It matters what the Scriptures say, and
it matters what the individual man thinks about God.​

But I do know this: that everyone born from above, those who have believed into Christ . . . need to know that their eternal life in Christ is forever, and it based upon God's accomplished work in and through the LORD Jesus Christ. A believer is placed firmly into Christ upon believing in Him.
 
We've gone through that at length. You don't think Mark 4:15 applies. I do.

Therein is the essence of our difference in sights.

Eve was within Adam when that transpired. All deception and theft via Satan transpires internally and EVE is a picture of that.

You see like an external flesh man on the subjects. So what?



Adam was undoubtedly a CARNAL man. That is why he was not deceived because he was ignorant of Satan's entry, just like every flesh man is.

Carnal slaves of Satan don't know their spiritual condition, internally. They are captured by the deceiver INTERNALLY, in MIND and HEART.



Every seed parable in the N.T. including Mark 4:15. If you follow the tracks the deception marks are clearly upon both Adam and Eve, and long before they actually ATE.

But if you have a hard time grasping the reality of that entry there is little use in even trying to move on to the even better stuff, but as entertainment, Paul tells us that the LAW is given to SINNERS.

The first law, DO NOT EAT, was laid upon ADAM in the Garden.

That's because Adam had already been INTERNALLY VIOLATED and already had SIN THEFT OF WORD internally by Satan's entry, by the entrance of the tempter, AFTER Gods Word was sown upon him to be fruitful and multiply. Carnal FLESH slaves of deception CAN'T be deceived because of their blinded by Satan, IGNORANCE.

That law was unto the LAWLESS, that would be the tempter, the deceiver, who had responded right on cue IMMEDIATELY after the Word was sown.

Yet flesh men can't see this and will blame only Adam and Eve and will COMPLETELY ignore how the tempter works with entry, temptation, deception and theft.

Why is that you ask? Because all flesh men have the same problem. They just can't get there.



You going to double talk and backtrack now?

If you ask me, any believer who says they have no internal temptation by the TEMPTER is a mere liar, and has been turned into one by the TEMPTER. As such they are blinded slaves themselves as to their internal spiritual awareness.

In short, they DON'T HAVE ANY.



If you say that Satan and devils DO NOT enter MAN, I would simply point you to the THOUSANDS of examples of this FACT in the N.T. Gospels.

Sin is of the devil. There is no delinking to be had.


You can salve yourself with responsibility all the day long and you will NEVER change what Satan does one iota. AND you will never be able to say you have NO SIN, that sin is NOT of the devil or that you DON'T have evil thoughts. This much is just hard line scriptural fact.



You can't even get the evil antagonist entity on the table of theological discussion.

We can look at the again hardline fact that the god of this world blinds peoples minds to the Gospel and is linked to every sin and to you? Ah, it must be ONLY MAN.

How blind is that, really?

And that is also part of what the TEMPTER does in people.

The ACCUSER accuses only MANKIND. And most get sucked into his game quite quickly and easily because they have no spiritual SELF awareness in them of the matters as it regards their OWN internal temptation.

They are led immediately into DENIAL by that party.

And as such it will remain the most difficult territory in all of theology.

So Adam, and the rest of us are cleared. It is not our fault. It is ONLY satan.

Do you believe we all will be saved?
 
So Adam, and the rest of us are cleared. It is not our fault. It is ONLY satan.

There are masters, pawns and Divine Superiority over all of same.

I believe our Savior Overcomes for ALL believers, and will wreak Divine Wrath upon all the unholy and ungodly to their ultimate destruction.
Do you believe we all will be saved?

I believe all vessels of honor shall be unequivocally saved. All vessels of dishonor, interminably damned forever in the LoF.
 
I believe our Savior Overcomes for ALL believers, and will wreak Divine Wrath upon all the unholy and ungodly to their ultimate destruction.
Amen.


I believe all vessels of honor shall be unequivocally saved. All vessels of dishonor, interminably damned forever in the LoF.
This is where your theology gets very confusing. Paul,is eternally saved(vessel of honor) yet Paul also has satan( vessel of dishonor) indwelling him. And that vessel of dishonor(satan) gets destroyed in the LoF.

Since all sin and unbelief is tied to satan and it is his fault and he is the vessel that goes to the lake of fire. What happens to the " not at fault" unbeliever? It is just the Demon that indwells them that goes to the lake of fire?
 
Eternal Life is given In the age to come.
It's interesting to see how much you just keep on claiming unbiblical statements.

Jesus said that believers HAVE eternal life. Apparently you disagree with Him.

John 5:24, like Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29, refute your views.

One HAS eternal life WHEN they believe. Jesus said so.

Eternal life is a gift (charisma), per Rom 6:23 and given by God, per 1 Jn 5:11. And God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

These verses contradict your opinion about the matter.
 
Romans 2:5-10

...eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality.


but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; JLB
So, to be clear, you think one gains eternal life "in doing good". So you think you earn salvation??

Jesus said believers HAVE eternal life. That means they receive it WHEN they believe; not in some future time. Jn 5:24

Eternal life is a gift (charisma) per Rom 6:23.

Eternal life is given by God, per 1 Jn 5:11.

God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

These verses refute your opinions. Every. Single. Time.
 
Smaller, you completely ignore the fact that we are responsible. And our sin nature is evil and would continue to be evil without the help of satan.
I think he's way more comfortable having someone else to blame for all his issues, sins, etc.

That way, he's not responsible for them. He'll just say, "the devil made me do it". :hysterical

Though, actually, it's really rather sad than funny.
 
Amen.
This is where your theology gets very confusing. Paul,is eternally saved(vessel of honor) yet Paul also has satan( vessel of dishonor) indwelling him. And that vessel of dishonor(satan) gets destroyed in the LoF.

Since all sin and unbelief is tied to satan and it is his fault and he is the vessel that goes to the lake of fire. What happens to the " not at fault" unbeliever? It is just the Demon that indwells them that goes to the lake of fire?

There is no question to me that the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh was/is bound to both resist everything of God, His Word and His Ways. And as such in Paul's flesh he bore an entity that was at odds with God in Christ regardless of what Paul did or didn't do. That entity was/is unquestionably bound for the LoF. That is why the standard OSAS refrain is inapplicable to our present state in the flesh. It's just not possible to get the WHOLE of us through the door of Heaven.

I think you might see this. And it does settle a LOT of scriptural territory in other arenas such as how we might view O.T. laws compared to Grace. Grace applied to Paul. Grace did not apply to the messenger of Satan in his flesh. The law of the O.T. would not condemn Paul. The law of the O.T. DOES condemn the lawless entity in the flesh of Paul. Not much different than Ishmael NEVER being able to inherit, and Isaac GUARANTEED inheritance by virtue of birthright no matter what. That IS a picture of each of our individual spiritual conditions in our battle with flesh, lust and the temptation of Satan therein.

That is the trial of our faith that ALL of us come into, realized or not.

So that settles the equations as it pertains to the believer or even the fallen believer. The adversary is undoubtely potent, but WILL BE SHOWN to be entirely unsuccessful.

As to judgment of people outside the church it is not much different. We are to seek and to save those who are lost as Jesus did, and to decry their internal captor in the Divine Cadence of the Gospel. Upholding the one and damning the other. I think it important to know the distinction between the unsaved and the captor. One is easily reached. The other automatically resists. There we wrestle with them, to bring them into Christ.

We can say somewhat differently to the Jew, as their roots are in the same God and Word, but not to the extents that it is revealed to us. Will they accept that God has bound them to the spirit of slumber? A wicked blinding spirit that causes them not to hear or see? In most cases, no. Not our call. It was God who bound them. I respect what He's done in our behalf. We are OBLIGATED to distribute MERCY to them regardless, as we have been given by God.

To many unsaved carnal people, they have been given no capacity to understand the things of God as it pertains to Jesus Christ, but that does NOT assure their damnation as many suppose.

Those who do right and those who love WILL have an eternal reward as well, imho. The sheep and goat judgment show us that as well as many other scriptures.

So I depart from hardline "typical' determinism in this area, and do so by right of scripture.

I believe the best for every person and the worst for our wicked adversaries and clearly see them overlapped, just as I would a believer who lies, is in hypocrisy or is recaptured by sin.

The understanding allows me to actually love my neighbors as myself and fulfill the Divine Dictate of His children without falling into hypocrisy and false judgments. And the standard of eternal damnation remains where we all know for a fact it belongs.

It's a sound package.
 
I think he's way more comfortable having someone else to blame for all his issues, sins, etc.
'

Or perhaps I don't care to be pawned by the tempter as a LIAR claiming no internal temptation by same. But if you don't get it, I understand why believers lie about it. In this way they stand void of understanding and excuse such activity in themselves, FREELY letting such things pass without note or judgment.

You can laugh all you please, but God sees us much closer, internally.

There is no place to hide a liar in the end.
 
Let's compare what you have stated here, as your opinion, with what the scriptures actually teach.
....
So much for your excuse that Paul is talking to the world!!


JLB

What are you talking about?
I've made no such statement nor excuse.
You seem highly confused and in error about what I've said. There's nothing in that post of mine (or any other post of mine) about "Paul talking to the world".

How about you quote exactly where I said anything about Paul talking to the world.

As for your Roman 2's 'nail in the OSAS coffin' phrase:

Romans 2:8 (LEB) but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.

You realize that a believer is someone (one of the "everyone", Jew or Greek, Paul speaks of) who has obeyed the call of the Truth, right?

Romans 1:16 (LEB) For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

You are in direct conflict with Paul by attributing Eternal wrath and anger (which I'm sure you assume what he really meant to say was the LoF and not wrath/anger) to some of the "everyone" who has obeyed the Truth and believed Him. You should be ashamed of yourself for disagreeing with Paul that everyone who believes has salvation.

You should also be ashamed of yourself for:
1. attributing the statement "Paul is talking to the world" to me (which I never said).

2. and for saying yourself;
The Root of the OSAS Gospel. Universalism

JLB
When clearly that's not true.

The truth is, the Root of the OSAS Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

3. And for saying;
accord to FreeGrace we don't even have to believe to be saved.

JLB
Which he's never said either.

Apparently you feel free to attribute whatever statement you can conjur up to anyone that shows your erroneous man-powered salvation to be false.
 
Or perhaps I don't care to be pawned by the tempter as a LIAR claiming no internal temptation by same.
Huh? Aren't you the one putting all the blame for our sin on the devil?? Isn't that being "pawned by the tempter"?

But if you don't get it, I understand why believers lie about it.
I understand your view. So, what are believers lying about?

In this way they stand void of understanding and excuse such activity in themselves, FREELY letting such things pass without note or judgment.
Who in the world are you talking about?

You can laugh all you please, but God sees us much closer, internally.
Of course He does.

There is no place to hide a liar in the end.
Who do you think is trying to hide? And from what, specifically?
 
Huh? Aren't you the one putting all the blame for our sin on the devil?? Isn't that being "pawned by the tempter"?

Lying is being pawned by the chief of liars.

I understand your view.

Unlikely. You're still trying to figure out if the tempter really tempts a believer internally, and if that then places same internally. Such complexity huh?
 
Are you really going to claim that the word "ex-wife" doesn't exist???? That's just way naive. The term is COMMON.

That's HOW men refer to their former wives. I've never heard "my former wife", but I've heard "my ex-wife" many times.

The point is what Scripture says about one who has been given eternal life.

Eternal life is described as charisma (gift) in Rom 6:23.

Christ's imputed righteousness is described as charisma (gift) in Rom 5:15,17.

Spiritual gifts (charisma) are noted in Rom 12:6

God's gifts (charisma) [all of them] are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Any questions?

So an ex wife is a former wife. So what? If a man falls into unbelief, he is no longer a believer and he is not counted as a believer. The whole house comes crashing down. There's no way to bring him back. You can't make him into a believer again.

Romans 11:29 refers to the nation of Israel who are called. What's it got to do with OSAS?
 
Unlikely. You're still trying to figure out if the tempter really tempts a believer internally, and if that then places same internally. Such complexity huh?
No, no complexity at all; except for trying to figure out what your posts mean most of the time. Recall that 2 other posts have also noted your posts don't make sense.

Listen, why would anyone think the devil tempts "externally"? That doesn't even make sense. Unless one wears their brains outside their skull.

I can't speak for other planets, but on this one, we all wear our brains inside (internally) our skulls. Which is where all temptation occurs.

I cited James 1 before, but I don't recall that you made any comment about it. So here it is:

James 1:14-15:
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. NASB
 
So an ex wife is a former wife. So what?
I thought you were following the discussion about former believers. They aren't called UNbelievers, which would indicate one who NEVER believed, just as an UNmarried woman is one who has never married.

Former wives are also called EX-wifes, but never UN-wife.

If a man falls into unbelief, he is no longer a believer and he is not counted as a believer.
He is a former believer, or an EX-believer, but NOT an UNbeliever.

What do you mean "not counted as…"? According to you or God?

Because according to God, eternal life is a gift (charima) per Rom 6:23, and it is God who gives the gift of eternal life, per 1 Jn 5:11, AND God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Do you disagree with God?

The whole house comes crashing down. There's no way to bring him back. You can't make him into a believer again.
How do you know whether anyone who has "fallen away" from the faith hasn't come back to the fold?

Romans 11:29 refers to the nation of Israel who are called. What's it got to do with OSAS?
Because there are NO verses where Israel is referred to as "called", is why. They are CHOSEN, which is a completely different word with a completely different meaning than "called".

Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) in Rom 6:23, imputed righteousness as a gift (charisma) in 5:15,17 and then in 11:29 he wrote that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

I don't suggest that one who has put their faith in Christ for salvation should disagree with God.
 
I sincerely try to engage any theological premise with honesty.

I can't honesty say that believers do NOT have internal spiritual enemies the scripture terms Satan and devils. Their avenues are theft of Word from hearts particularly causing spiritual blindness to the facts of their internal attacks, temptation and a myriad of various deceptions and divisions that have been blood splattered across the history of the 'church.'

All of that transpires within everyone. The world itself is filled to the brim with examples. Even here.

The premise of trying to potentially eternally damn any believer on any basis is just part of their deployments. People, believers even, who do that merely show their internal slaveship to such powers and do not, can not understand what they are doing. They themselves have to this extent laid stumbling blocks to others and exempted themselves from the wicked power in the heart of everyman that is slated for eternal destruction.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

None are exempt from that reality.

Best to cling to the Rock in all cases because both of these engagements is what happens withIN every believer:

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

When we are saved we are BROKEN from Satan's power.

Satan however will have the latter fate.

It's not that complicated. Paul is describing a physical weakness related to his suffering - a thorn in his flesh. He calls it a messenger of Satan. A messenger of Satan - It's called personification - given to him to harass/bother him and to keep him from being too elated.
 
'

Or perhaps I don't care to be pawned by the tempter as a LIAR claiming no internal temptation by same. But if you don't get it, I understand why believers lie about it. In this way they stand void of understanding and excuse such activity in themselves, FREELY letting such things pass without note or judgment.

You can laugh all you please, but God sees us much closer, internally.

There is no place to hide a liar in the end.
Where are you getting this idea that we don't believe that temptation comes from our minds and satan doesn't play a role in that? I seriously don't get it. NOBODY is denying satan tempts us. EVERYBODY is saying that it is BOTH our sin nature and satans schemes.

Seriously now, do believe it is just satan,satan alone,only satan?
 
I thought you were following the discussion about former believers. They aren't called UNbelievers, which would indicate one who NEVER believed, just as an UNmarried woman is one who has never married.

Former wives are also called EX-wifes, but never UN-wife.


He is a former believer, or an EX-believer, but NOT an UNbeliever.

What do you mean "not counted as…"? According to you or God?

Because according to God, eternal life is a gift (charima) per Rom 6:23, and it is God who gives the gift of eternal life, per 1 Jn 5:11, AND God's gifts are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Do you disagree with God?

If a man falls into unbelief he is no longer a believer.

How do you know whether anyone who has "fallen away" from the faith hasn't come back to the fold?

Common sense.

For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 6:4

Because there are NO verses where Israel is referred to as "called", is why. They are CHOSEN, which is a completely different word with a completely different meaning than "called".

The LORD called them, 'my people'. If he called them his people then they are his people. But what's this got to do with OSAS?

Paul described eternal life as a gift (charisma) in Rom 6:23, imputed righteousness as a gift (charisma) in 5:15,17 and then in 11:29 he wrote that God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable.

I don't suggest that one who has put their faith in Christ for salvation should disagree with God.

If they fall into unbelief, then they are unbelievers. They don't believe. It's impossible to restore them to repentance. The Jews who had believed in him now wanted to kill him. John 8:31

Your premise that they were once saved is all wrong. You can't say you were once saved to someone who doesn't believe it.
 
Chessman said -

Which he's never said either.

Apparently you feel free to attribute whatever statement you can conjur up to anyone that shows your erroneous man-powered salvation to be false.

Here is his quote -

"Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't."

If believing accomplishes nothing, then unbelievers will be saved along with believers.




I asked you this question, in another thread about this subject, and you answered No!

Can a born again Christian renounce Jesus Christ as Lord, and publicly confess Allah as Lord, and the only true God and still be saved?

Now your answer seems to have changed -

You answered your own question.
Think about it.

Can a born again Christ and Holy Spirit indwelt person renounce Christ? Only the old man can.

Then think about how many times people (like Peter) say things they don't really mean in their Christ indwelt hearts. Three, at least.

Sometimes the old fleshly mouth just blabs out falsehoods too. (Like OSAS is rooted in universalism).


Is that a yes or a No?


Here is another question you avoided.

How does this ex Christian now get his sins forgiven?

How does a person who believed for a while, then no longer believes, get his sins forgiven?

Believers get their sins forgiven by confessing and asking for forgiveness.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


How do ex believers, which are people who believe for a while, then no longer believe, get their sins forgiven?


JLB
 
I thought you were following the discussion about former believers. They aren't called UNbelievers, which would indicate one who NEVER believed, just as an UNmarried woman is one who has never married.

Former wives are also called EX-wifes, but never UN-wife.


He is a former believer, or an EX-believer, but NOT an UNbeliever.
.

If a woman is not married, she is un-married.

If a believer no longer believes, he is an un-believer.

The fate on one who believed for a while, then turned away is described in the scriptures.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness..

...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 2 Peter 2:20-21


JLB
 
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