Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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(Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)If believing accomplishes nothing, then unbelievers will be saved along with believers.
One doesn't need examples when one understands the words of Scripture, which I've shared with you.
Eternal life is described as a gift (charisma) in Rom 6:23.
Jesus said that a believer has (present tense) eternal life in John 5:24. So, that means they have it WHEN they believe.
God's gifts (charisma) are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
So, WHEN a person believes in Christ, they HAVE the gift of eternal life. And eternal life is irrevocable.
I'm not sure why you bring up "perseverance" in Rom 11:29, because that isn't in that verse.
Here is the Greek word for 'irrevocable': ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted
The word relates to God's view of the gift; not man's. IOW, God does not either repent of or regret giving His gifts, which include eternal life. Which is why translators who well understand the Koine Greek of the 1st Century translate it as "irrevocable".
That means that God doesn't take back His gifts.
Or, let me put it this way: if God ever did or ever will take back His gifts, why doesn't Scripture come out and tell us in very plain and unambiguous wording?
If salvation can be lost, forfeited, returned, taken back, etc, why are there NO verses that say so?
The answer is clear: God's gifts are irrevocable. That includes the gift of eternal life.
I said:
- Regarding "falling away" [αποστασία] in 2Th 2:3, I believe they are mere professors of faith and not born from above. They hovered near God and the Church, wanting to be like both, but never entering into either.
- Regarding those who "depart" [αφίστημι] from the faith in 1Tim 4:1, are those who stand away from God never having belonged to Him. They refused to believe.
to which you replied:
I will not judge whether or not a person is born from above.
Proof of faith and having eternal life are two different matters.
It doesn't matter what I "think."
It matters what the Scriptures say, and
it matters what the individual man thinks about God.
But I do know this: that everyone born from above, those who have believed into Christ . . . need to know that their eternal life in Christ is forever, and it based upon God's accomplished work in and through the LORD Jesus Christ. A believer is placed firmly into Christ upon believing in Him.
(Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)
Freegrace has said that there is no POWER in belief in and of itself. It has no merit. The Grace bestowed upon us at the MOMENT we believe is the merit of our salvation, not our belief. (Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)
(Edit, ToS 2.4. Obadiah) anyone who is reading and following knows exactly what freegrace meant with that statement.
I'm not tracking it down, but I'm quite sure you've misunderstood me if you think I've changed my answer to the same question in another thread. It was either another question or you misunderstood my answer. Plus, when you ask complex and presumptive questions (two or more questions phrased to sound like one where you presume an answer to one or more within the question) it's not a logical question.I asked you this question, in another thread about this subject, and you answered No!
JLB
The same way every believer get's their sins forgiven. God forgives them. It's in the very verse you just quoted?How does a person who believed for a while, then no longer believes, get his sins forgiven?
JLB
Chessman said -
The same way every believer get's their sins forgiven. God forgives them. It's in the very verse you just quoted?
Abraham believed God, who counted that act of faith to him as righteousness (James 2:23, Gen 15:6). God's accounting to him righteousness was a divine act, a declaration of God, but God did not impute His righteousness to Abraham at that time; not until Christ was resurrected from the dead.Ok, how would you interpret:
"James 2:21-24 KJV
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
So, are we justified by works or does the word "justified" here mean "shown to be righteous"? If the latter, then a person can "show" that he "has eternal life".
I said:
- Regarding "falling away" [αποστασία] in 2Th 2:3, I believe they are mere professors of faith and not born from above. They hovered near God and the Church, wanting to be like both, but never entering into either.
- Regarding those who "depart" [αφίστημι] from the faith in 1Tim 4:1, are those who stand away from God never having belonged to Him. They refused to believe.
to which you replied:
I will not judge whether or not a person is born from above.
Proof of faith and having eternal life are two different matters.
It doesn't matter what I "think."
It matters what the Scriptures say, and
it matters what the individual man thinks about God.
But I do know this: that everyone born from above, those who have believed into Christ . . . need to know that their eternal life in Christ is forever, and it based upon God's accomplished work in and through the LORD Jesus Christ. A believer is placed firmly into Christ upon believing in Him.
Proof of faith and having eternal life are two different matters.
I explained the issue. You are free to take it or leave it.If a man falls into unbelief he is no longer a believer.
Not with God. With man, this is impossible. But not for God. Matt 19:26For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 6:4
To remind you, the discussion is about Rom 11:29 being about God's gift, which was described in 6:23 as eternal life, is irrevocable. The calling, also mentioned in 11:29 doesn't refer to Israel, as some are claiming. While God calls Israel His people, that's not a "calling". They are His CHOSEN people. And has nothing to do with Rom 11:29.The LORD called them, 'my people'. If he called them his people then they are his people. But what's this got to do with OSAS?
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)If they fall into unbelief, then they are unbelievers. They don't believe.
It's never been my premis that anyone was "once saved". Those who have been saved continue to be saved. There is no such person as "once saved". Unless you add the phrase "always saved".Your premise that they were once saved is all wrong. You can't say you were once saved to someone who doesn't believe it.
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) I made it clear that the act of believing has no power. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) It means that your act does NOT save you.Here is his quote -
"Actually, believing accomplishes nothing. Do you think the act of believing has any power?? Well, it doesn't."
If believing accomplishes nothing, then unbelievers will be saved along with believers.
They don't. They stay out of fellowship, which is the point and subject of 1 Jn 1. And Jesus said that those who don't abide in Him (for fellowship) won't produce fruit (the subject of John 15).How do ex believers, which are people who believe for a while, then no longer believe, get their sins forgiven?JLB
(Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)If a woman is not married, she is un-married.
If a believer no longer believes, he is an un-believer.
Yes. Expectation of severe discpline in time, and loss of future eternal reward.The fate on one who believed for a while, then turned away is described in the scriptures.
Where do you get this idea from? Certainly NOT from Scripture.The gifts are God's, correct? So, God gives and HE will not revoke them. We, on the other hand, can.
Irrelevant. Apples and oranges.If I gave you an "irrevocable" gift, could you give it back or throw it away? Of course.
The doctrine is seen throughout Scripture.You are taking ONE verse and trying to force a doctrine out of it.
Not at all. There are no verses that say that we can give our salvation, new birth, forgiveness, justification, etc back.That God doesn't revoke, but we do, squares with the rest of Scripture, also.
The issue, (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah), is who is doing the saving. Your act of believing does NOT accomplish salvation. God accomplishes salvation. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)Why would any Christian say such a thing as...believing accomplishes nothing ?
Believe = salvation
The issue, (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah), is who is doing the saving. Your act of believing does NOT accomplish salvation. God accomplishes salvation. (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah)
Where are you getting this idea that we don't believe that temptation comes from our minds and satan doesn't play a role in that? I seriously don't get it. NOBODY is denying satan tempts us. EVERYBODY is saying that it is BOTH our sin nature and satans schemes.
Seriously now, do believe it is just satan,satan alone,only satan?
It's not that complicated. Paul is describing a physical weakness related to his suffering - a thorn in his flesh. He calls it a messenger of Satan. A messenger of Satan - It's called personification - given to him to harass/bother him and to keep him from being too elated.
smaller said -
They outright condemn believers and fallen believers (Edit, ToS2.4. Obadiah) thinking that if only they behave they will maybe be spared.
How does a person who believed for a while, then no longer believes, get his sins forgiven?
(Removed, response to deleted portion of a post. Obadiah)The same way every believer gets their sins forgiven. God forgives them.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9
If you think you are paraphrasing John 1:8-9 with your statement above, I think I see the problem here and see why it is that you keep misquoting others on this thread and thinking it’s perfectly fine to do so. You read into the text what you want it to say, regardless of what it actually says and ignore the texts that disagree with your anti-OSAS ideas.The one who believes for a while then no longer believes in Christ, has no forgiveness of sins.
JLB
You didn’t answer a single one of these questions. Do you have any answers to them?1. Do you think that to be saved, a believer has to specifically ask for forgiveness for every individual sin he/she commits each day/hour? (Yes or no)
2. How about sins they/we are deceived into thinking they aren't actually committing, how can a person ask for forgiveness of one or more sins that they don't even realize they've committed?
3. Do you think God forgives all our sins when we confess our sins and believe in Him or just some of them?
None of us believe in universalism, AND YOU KNOW WE DON'T. Why say we do?