Bible Study Our Body/Our Spirit

[Butch5]

So you don't believe we have another part of us that makes us different than all of God's other created animals? I believe scripture says they also are living souls.

I believe man has higher intelligence than the animals, but different? Solomon said,

18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." (Ecc 3:18 NKJ)

The word like is not in the original text. According to this passage man is just like the animals.

The more I think about it the more I believe man is flesh. If man was a spirit living in a temporary body why are men and women different? why are people tied to the desires of the flesh. I mean if man is a spirit that simply goes on after the death of the body it would seem that the body is unnecessary and shouldn't affect the spirit. When people have brain damage often the have difficulty communicating, however, if the spirit didn't need the body it should have no difficulty communicating even if the brain is damaged, yet that is not what we see. There are lots of things like this.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe man has higher intelligence than the animals, but different? Solomon said,

18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." (Ecc 3:18 NKJ)

The word like is not in the original text. According to this passage man is just like the animals.

The more I think about it the more I believe man is flesh. If man was a spirit living in a temporary body why are men and women different? why are people tied to the desires of the flesh. I mean if man is a spirit that simply goes on after the death of the body it would seem that the body is unnecessary and shouldn't affect the spirit. When people have brain damage often the have difficulty communicating, however, if the spirit didn't need the body it should have no difficulty communicating even if the brain is damaged, yet that is not what we see. There are lots of things like this.

I have to get dinner ready but I will try to get back here tonight. I'll be thinking about that scripture.

 

[th1b.taylor]

9 What profit has he who works in that in which he labors? 10 I have seen the burden which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in their hearts, yet so that man can’t find out the work that God has done from the beginning even to the end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice, and to do good as long as they live. 13 Also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy good in all his labor, is the gift of God. 14 I know that whatever God does, it shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; and God has done it, that men should fear before him. 15 That which is has been long ago, and that which is to be has been long ago: and God seeks again that which is passed away.

A beautiful and full passage when it is read in it's context. This is one of the great Salvation and reward passages... in it's context.

 

[Kidron]

So you don't believe we have another part of us that makes us different than all of God's other created animals? I believe scripture says they also are living souls.

No other living thing, creature, animal, plant, whatever,... was created in the Image of God.
The bible tells us that angels are a little higher then man, (perhaps this is a reference to the Third Heaven??)... but man and not angels is crowned with "glory and honor"... and it also tells us that we have dominion over all "living things".

God will never refer to a herd of sheep or a pack of rats as, "the Body of Christ".
God will never refer to a litter of bear cubs as his "bride".

Humans, are unique in the realm of the living, as we are "like" God.
Jesus himself, in John 10:34 referred to us as "gods", indicating our similarity to Himself and the Father.

 

[Blake]

It seems to me like we are body, mind and spirit. We are not partially body, partially soul or partially mind, but we are fully all three in one human being, in the image of God.

 

[Suna Ihm]

I believe man has higher intelligence than the animals, but different? Solomon said,

18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." (Ecc 3:18 NKJ)

The word like is not in the original text. According to this passage man is just like the animals.

The more I think about it the more I believe man is flesh. If man was a spirit living in a temporary body why are men and women different? why are people tied to the desires of the flesh. I mean if man is a spirit that simply goes on after the death of the body it would seem that the body is unnecessary and shouldn't affect the spirit. When people have brain damage often the have difficulty communicating, however, if the spirit didn't need the body it should have no difficulty communicating even if the brain is damaged, yet that is not what we see. There are lots of things like this.

Few verses below Ecc 3:18, there is a verse "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?" It clearly says the spirit of man and animal is different.

"For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11 NKJ)
"But the natural1 man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJ) (NASB footnoted 1 as 'unspiritual')
People have a spirit, but only fleshly traits can be revealed as two verses (we could find more verses but I just write few of them) say.

What I am trying to say is man is made up of a body, soul and spirit.

 

[Angel]

Very interesting!

 

[Butch5]

Few verses below Ecc 3:18, there is a verse "Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?" It clearly says the spirit of man and animal is different.

I disagree. The passage says one goes upward and one goes down. However, a few verse prior Solomon states that both man and animal all have one spirit.

18 I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals."
19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. (Ecc 3:18-20 NKJ)

The word breath here is ruwach, it is the same word for spirit. He says they all have one spirit. I have heard some suggest that the reason the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of the animal goes down is because man will be resurrected and animals won't be. I guess this is possible, but I don't know if it can be proven from Scripture.

"For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11 NKJ)
"But the natural1 man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14 NKJ) (NASB footnoted 1 as 'unspiritual')
People have a spirit, but only fleshly traits can be revealed as two verses (we could find more verses but I just write few of them) say.

What I am trying to say is man is made up of a body, soul and spirit.

I can agree to a point here. According to Gen 2:7 man is a living soul that consists of a body and the breath/spirit of life. The passage is pretty clear in explaining how man was created. The passage says that God formed the man from the dust of the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)

So, man was formed from the dust of the ground. Whatever man is, he is from the dust of the earth. The next thing God did was to breathe into the man. He breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became a living soul. From this passage we can see that the man existed before God breathed into him the breath/spirit of life. The idea of breathing suggests that something came out of God and into the man. From the passage we know what came out of God and into the man, it was the breath/spirit of life. From this I surmise that man is a created flesh being into which God breathed His breath/spirit of life. This breath/spirit is not man but rather what gives man life. This attested to from other passages of Scripture. In Job we find,

12 Surely God will never do wickedly, Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
13 Who gave Him charge over the earth? Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust. (Job 34:12-15 NKJ)

In this passage both Neshamah and Ruwach are used, both are Hebrew words for breath/spirit. He said if God retrieved his breath/spirit all flesh would die and man would return to dust. As we saw in Gen 2:7 man is dust as he was created from the dust. David too, acknowledges that man is dust.

13 As a father pities his children, So the LORD pities those who fear Him.
14 For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16 For the wind passes over it, and it is gone, And its place remembers it no more1. (Psa 103:13-16 NKJ)

Paul too acknowledges that God gives life to all things.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, (1Ti 6:13 NKJ)

Paul uses a present tense verb here which indicates a present continuous action on God's part. This statement flatly refutes the idea that humans have immortal souls. It also refutes the immortality of angles. According to this passage everything that is alive is living because God is presently and continuously giving it life.

If we are to understand what man is we have to understand all of these passages in such a way that we acknowledge all of them without contradiction. That means taking all of the passages that speak of the spirit of man and the passages that speak of man as dust and bringing them together is a cohesive fashion where this no contradiction. It seems to me that understanding man as a being created from the dust and infused with the breath/spirit of God does this nicely. It can explain all of the passages that speak of the spirit of man and the passage that speak of man as being dust. If was say that man is a spirit being we cannot account for a lot of passages.

I liken man to a computer. A person can build a computer and write a code for the operating system, but unless they apply electricity the computer will do nothing. I liken the electricity to the breath/spirit of God. As the electricity brings life (figuratively) to the computer so the breath/spirit of life from God brings life to the man. Even though the electricity brings life to the computer the electricity is not part of the computer. The electricity is a separate entity that animates the computer, likewise the breath/spirit of God is not a part of the being of man but rather is what animates or gives life to him. We saw from Paul that God gives life to all things and from Moses that that life comes from God's breath/spirit and from Solomon that both man and animal all have one breath/spirit. This all fits nicely with what was stated in Gen 2:7 that man is dust.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The word breath here is ruwach, it is the same word for spirit. He says they all have one spirit. I have heard some suggest that the reason the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of the animal goes down is because man will be resurrected and animals won't be. I guess this is possible, but I don't know if it can be proven from Scripture.

All true and all correct in the same instant. If a man thinks himself more wise than the wisdom of the Father, he might dwell on this and, making himself, as unto a fool, ignore many other passages of the scriptures that, considered, improperly, make this whole book of Solomon's anger and disgust a lie.

Of course there are no lies in the Bible, all of it is true, when taken in the sense that each portion is written in. Here, Solomon, correctly, declares we are no better than the animals God, also, created and he rightly says so in spite of the fact that God gave man mastery over the animals and so it is that we must find a sense of balance to ever understand.

1 Thes. 5:19-22 We must learn to quench not the Spirit and to follow His leading by listening to His teaching. This, I have done and if any others will do so also, they will see the scriptures open like an automatic door on a furniture store at the Presidents Day Sale.

The teachings of the Scriptures must become one teaching, or instruction, to you before they make sense. This instruction of the Worlds Wisest Man is from a King that had been so full of himself that he thought it wise to court about 700 women... at the same time. Oh what a fool and yet... ¿the wisest man in the world? King Solomon, like all old men, awoke and realized he was a fool as a young man and this is his lamentation. When read, knowing this, it is easily reconciled with the rest of scripture. Trying to establish some new doctrine from some portion of it is just, as Solomon declares, vanity gone awry.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It seems to me like we are body, mind and spirit. We are not partially body, partially soul or partially mind, but we are fully all three in one human being, in the image of God.

Blake, if the avatar is your head shot I can call you sonny because you look young enough to be my grandson but hear this; Blake5 would do well to pay attention to you.

Now, don't let that bury itself to deeply inside yourself and become a self made fool. God bless my little brother of another mother!

 

[Deborah13]

Good Morning, Butch.

I mean if man is a spirit that simply goes on after the death of the body it would seem that the body is unnecessary and shouldn't affect the spirit.

I don't believe man is a spirit being, which is what you are referring to. A being that does not need a physical body to be present on this earth. That would even be what some of the gnostic beliefs are about the Son of Man. That He was just spirit and not a flesh body.

I believe man has higher intelligence than the animals, but different? Solomon said,

I agree, that both man and animals are the same in that they are living beings and that it is God Himself who gives them life. There are animal species that are totally extinct, God either did that Himself or allowed for it, He took away that breath/spirit life. So it would be with mankind if God were to withdraw this breath of life.

I don't care for the NKJV of that verse, the word 'test' is incorrect. Even the KJV, says 'manifest' and the YLT says 'cleanse' which I think either of those is more accurate. Solomon is saying that he wishes for man to be enlightened to the fact that just like all other species we are only alive because of God.
He mentions the righteous and the wicked. The wicked (those who do not recognize God) are full of vanity, pride. They don't realize that all their power and good things in life are only because God allows or gives them. They think that because they are more intelligent than the beasts that they are better. When in fact wick men can be more depraved than any dumb beast that I can think. Ecc. 3:19
Verse 20 is clearly speaking of the body returning to dust.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth? [that is a question, not a statement]
Verse 22, is also a question that man should be asking himself about his life. What has he done with it and who has he given credit for it.
He knowledges that animals are different than man in verses, 16 and 17. Man will be judged for how he has recognized God in his life.
I believe this whole expose' is about man's propensity to take credit for things he should be glorifying God for rather than thinking so highly of himself.
I don't see that it speaks to how God has created man in the likeness of Himself or even why man will be judged when the animals are not.

 

[Edward]

The spirit gives life and according to Scriptures a soul is a living being. Therefore I would submit that to be able to divide soul and spirit is to take life.

The spirit gives life, and belongs to God. God breathed His Spirit into man, and man became a living Soul...The soul is a part of us which is our personality, preferences, desires, emotions and consciousness. Our spirit returns to God regardless, when we pass on, the question then becomes does the soul accompany it? The flesh body is just a tent to dwell in while we're here on earth. We're really spiritual beings on house arrest in a tent on earth (born into a war behind enemy lines with nothing but a radio (prayer).

I think you're right about soul & spirit dividing takes life. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, These men are 'dead' in the flesh, but their souls are in hell and Abrahams Bosom respectively. So they're separated and yet, are they living? It would seem so from reading it, but what is the difference between the rich man and Lazarus. From what I can tell, the only difference is that one of them, their soul is in hell and his spirit is presumably with God. Lazarus is conscious and in Abraham's Bosom, presumably, his spirit is also with God. The only difference seems to be that, their soul is in different places. Perhaps, when people are in hell and separated from their spirit, that, there's your death right there. Conscious, in hell, and the spirit has left them, leaving them totally separated from God and no chance of it coming back to them. So no life, no hope, nothing.

Perhaps this will be the worst torment in hell? To be totally separated from God? (We've never known this feeling because the Holy Spirit has always been with us.
Conversely, is our real reward, being able to be (live) in the presence of God? Everyone who has a third heaven experience all come back saying the same exact thing...that the feeling of love and acceptance while there is the most beautiful feeling that they have ever had. God is love and to be in the presence of such love is always a very profound and memorable experience for them. There's our reward right there.

BUT! What about that verse? What is that telling us? Dividing asunder soul and spirit...It doesn't seem to click with what we're talking about. I get the impression from reading it that, Our spirit and soul must be divided, done through His Word somehow...I think...

 

[Edward]

"Mr. Wesley's note on this verse is expressed with his usual precision and accuracy: -
"For the word of God - preached, Hebrews 4:2, and armed with threatenings, Hebrews 4:3, is living and powerful - attended with the power of the living God, and conveying either life or death to the hearers; sharper than any two-edged sword - penetrating the heart more than this does the body; piercing quite through, and laying open, the soul and spirit, joints and marrow - the inmost recesses of the mind, which the apostle beautifully and strongly expresses by this heap of figurative words; and is a discerner, not only of the thoughts, but also of the intentions.""

Here's a link to Adam Clark's Commentary on this verse. It also links to 1 Thess. 5:23. I had never looked to see what he had said about these verses until today. I was pleasantly surprised.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/4.htm

Ahh, almost missed this. Allright, thank you sister. I'm'a gonna read that.

 

[Butch5]

Good Morning, Butch.

I don't believe man is a spirit being, which is what you are referring to. A being that does not need a physical body to be present on this earth. That would even be what some of the gnostic beliefs are about the Son of Man. That He was just spirit and not a flesh body.

I agree, that both man and animals are the same in that they are living beings and that it is God Himself who gives them life. There are animal species that are totally extinct, God either did that Himself or allowed for it, He took away that breath/spirit life. So it would be with mankind if God were to withdraw this breath of life.

I don't care for the NKJV of that verse, the word 'test' is incorrect. Even the KJV, says 'manifest' and the YLT says 'cleanse' which I think either of those is more accurate. Solomon is saying that he wishes for man to be enlightened to the fact that just like all other species we are only alive because of God.
He mentions the righteous and the wicked. The wicked (those who do not recognize God) are full of vanity, pride. They don't realize that all their power and good things in life are only because God allows or gives them. They think that because they are more intelligent than the beasts that they are better. When in fact wick men can be more depraved than any dumb beast that I can think. Ecc. 3:19
Verse 20 is clearly speaking of the body returning to dust.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth? [that is a question, not a statement]
Verse 22, is also a question that man should be asking himself about his life. What has he done with it and who has he given credit for it.
He knowledges that animals are different than man in verses, 16 and 17. Man will be judged for how he has recognized God in his life.
I believe this whole expose' is about man's propensity to take credit for things he should be glorifying God for rather than thinking so highly of himself.
I don't see that it speaks to how God has created man in the likeness of Himself or even why man will be judged when the animals are not.

Hi Deb,

I looked up the Greek word "διακρινεῖ" which in the LXX is translated from the Hebrew "barar" in Ecc 3:18. I used the Greek word so that I could look at the NT also. In the majority of places it is translated either judge or doubt. Doubting is a form of judging as when one is doubting something they are judging whether or not it is the case. I didn't find any occurrence in either the Old or New Testaments where it was translated cleanse. It seemed to overwhelmingly refer to some sort of judging.

Here it is translated discern,
And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? (Mat 16:3 KJV)

Here doubt,
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. (Mat 21:21 KJV)

Here difference,
KJV Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Act 15:9 KJV)

I think you can see how it is translated difference. Put no difference between us could be the same as made no judgment between us

I agree that Solomon isn't telling us about the creation of man per se, however, what he says align with the rest of Scripture about what happens to man. One thing I think we need to look at as Christians is what we bring to the text. Everyone who comes to Christ come from some form of upbringing. We have things we already believe are true. Take the Greeks for instance, who already had an understanding of Hades as the underground abode of the dead. What would they think when they see the word Hades in the Bible? Oh, the Bible speaks of a place called Hades so Hades must exist. The thing is, did they go back to Genesis and study the Scriptures from the beginning, or did they simply insert the idea of Hades they already had?

I believe that God has revealed His word progressively over time. Paul speaks of the mystery that was reveal that had been kept secret and Daniel was told to see the book because it was not for him but for those later on. However, if you notice I went back to the very beginning to establish my understanding of man. I went back to the beginning. Starting from there I can move on through time and revelation to see if God has expounded on that initial revelation. As I go through the Scriptures I don't see where God has added anything to man with the exception of the giving of the Holy Spirit which we know is not man. I don't see where there would be any change.

Do you believe there has been a change since Gen 2? If so, what is the change and where is it in Scripture that we might look at it?

 

[Butch5]

The spirit gives life, and belongs to God. God breathed His Spirit into man, and man became a living Soul...The soul is a part of us which is our personality, preferences, desires, emotions and consciousness. Our spirit returns to God regardless, when we pass on, the question then becomes does the soul accompany it? The flesh body is just a tent to dwell in while we're here on earth. We're really spiritual beings on house arrest in a tent on earth (born into a war behind enemy lines with nothing but a radio (prayer).

Hi Edward,

I disagree with the premise here that the soul is our personality, preferences, desires, emotions and consciousness. It would appear to me from the Gen 2 account that a soul is formed from the dust of the earth and the breath of life. In the Scriptures the word soul is used abstractly of life, thus I would submit that our soul is our life or whole being.

I think you're right about soul & spirit dividing takes life. In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, These men are 'dead' in the flesh, but their souls are in hell and Abrahams Bosom respectively. So they're separated and yet, are they living? It would seem so from reading it, but what is the difference between the rich man and Lazarus. From what I can tell, the only difference is that one of them, their soul is in hell and his spirit is presumably with God. Lazarus is conscious and in Abraham's Bosom, presumably, his spirit is also with God. The only difference seems to be that, their soul is in different places. Perhaps, when people are in hell and separated from their spirit, that, there's your death right there. Conscious, in hell, and the spirit has left them, leaving them totally separated from God and no chance of it coming back to them. So no life, no hope, nothing.

I don't believe the account of Lazarus and the Rich Man is about the afterlife. There are two many problems if we take it literally. Firstly the passage says nothing about the soul or the spirit.

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

If Hades is the graves as I submit we would expect to find dead bodies there. Notice in the parable the rich man has eyes. He also has a tongue and Lazarus has fingers. These are all parts we associate with a body. There are plenty other reason that this parable isn't an account of life after death.

Perhaps this will be the worst torment in hell? To be totally separated from God? (We've never known this feeling because the Holy Spirit has always been with us.
Conversely, is our real reward, being able to be (live) in the presence of God? Everyone who has a third heaven experience all come back saying the same exact thing...that the feeling of love and acceptance while there is the most beautiful feeling that they have ever had. God is love and to be in the presence of such love is always a very profound and memorable experience for them. There's our reward right there.

BUT! What about that verse? What is that telling us? Dividing asunder soul and spirit...It doesn't seem to click with what we're talking about. I get the impression from reading it that, Our spirit and soul must be divided, done through His Word somehow...I think...

I don't go by other peoples explanations of what they saw. Having OCD I am fully aware of the power of the mind.

 

[Deborah13]

I looked up the Greek word "διακρινεῖ" which in the LXX is translated from the Hebrew "barar" in Ecc 3:18. I used the Greek word so that I could look at the NT also. In the majority of places it is translated either judge or doubt

I suppose if one thinks of judgement as being manifested, shown, purged, tested as the same. This is what I found when I did the same word search for 'barar'.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1305.htm

Do you believe there has been a change since Gen 2? If so, what is the change and where is it in Scripture that we might look at it?

No, I don't believe that man has changed since God created him. What I do believe is that maybe through Paul's words we can have a better understanding of who God created in the beginning. A more complete understanding of what it means to be created in the image of God. Which explains why we are judged when the rest of creation is not and also why we can have a very different relationship with God that is not available to the rest of creation.

 

[Butch5]

I suppose if one thinks of judgement as being manifested, shown, purged, tested as the same. This is what I found when I did the same word search for 'barar'.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/1305.htm

Hi Deb,
Yes, that is what my Strong's says also. The LXX was translated from a Hebrew text that dates back further than the Hebrew texts we have today. With the exception of the Dead Sea Scroll, most Hebrew texts are the Masoretic texts. The reason I went to the Greek text was so that I could search both testaments. My guess is that when the translators of the LXX looked at the Hebrew texts they had they determined that "διακρινεῖ" was the translation to use.

When I said that I found the word to mean judgment I didn't mean condemnation but rather a deciding, such as judging whether someone or thing is right or wrong

No, I don't believe that man has changed since God created him. What I do believe is that maybe through Paul's words we can have a better understanding of who God created in the beginning. A more complete understanding of what it means to be created in the image of God. Which explains why we are judged when the rest of creation is not and also why we can have a very different relationship with God that is not available to the rest of creation.

Ok, what words of Paul's do you believe may give further information.

I would submit that we are judged because man was put over the creation and made responsible for it. I'd have to think about the last question

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

I disagree with the premise here that the soul is our personality, preferences, desires, emotions and consciousness. It would appear to me from the Gen 2 account that a soul is formed from the dust of the earth and the breath of life. In the Scriptures the word soul is used abstractly of life, thus I would submit that our soul is our life or whole being.



I don't believe the account of Lazarus and the Rich Man is about the afterlife. There are two many problems if we take it literally. Firstly the passage says nothing about the soul or the spirit.

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luk 16:22-23 NKJ)

If Hades is the graves as I submit we would expect to find dead bodies there. Notice in the parable the rich man has eyes. He also has a tongue and Lazarus has fingers. These are all parts we associate with a body. There are plenty other reason that this parable isn't an account of life after death.



I don't go by other peoples explanations of what they saw. Having OCD I am fully aware of the power of the mind.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you here. Are you saying that you believe that we have no soul?

Lazarus and the rich man does not say anything about soul or spirit. That's me trying to apply conventional thinking to it. If the body is dead (like it says) then the body is in the grave buried. The spirit returns to God, so what's left to be in Hades or Abraham's Bosom? The soul. Scripture says...that your soul may be saved and so forth. If we have no soul, then there's nothing to save right?

Hades isn't the grave, it's hades. If it were the grave, it would say the grave. There's a distinction made between them because they are different places.

Never considering others testimonies as potential truths is your choice but would have no bearing on if it is true or not. We hear something, check it against scripture if possible and if not possible then we look for patterns or discrepancies against other testimonies and see if it adds up. A wholesale rejection of everything...doesn't help at all.

"If Hades is the graves as I submit we would expect to find dead bodies there. Notice in the parable the rich man has eyes. He also has a tongue and Lazarus has fingers. These are all parts we associate with a body. There are plenty other reason that this parable isn't an account of life after death."

Why do you think that Hades is the grave? And you're right, they had eyes, tongues, senses, all of that. These are all parts that we associate with a body , I get that, that's what we were taught. But...what about the spiritual body? Can you show us (scripturally) that a spirit does not have a body at all? So it would be a spiritual body, with spiritual characteristics, of which we know very little to nothing about considering that we were never taught these things. So, you're going to have to do better than that to establish that they had their body with them in Hades, just because we associate those terms with a flesh body.

Are we not instructed to live for the spirit? What's that mean? It's not live for the body or live for the flesh brother...it's live for the spirit. Bottom line is, we're not human. We're spiritual beings that have a flesh body. We're in an identity crisis and need to realize who we are. We are spiritual beings. As children too because we don't know, having never been taught this. They've squirreled away this knowledge and hidden it from the masses in an effort to keep us in confusion and not ever come to realize who we really are.

Spirits have senses too brother. The scripture says that their flesh body was not with them, but buried. How would you explain that one?

 

[Edward]

Aha, I found a short where JPJ speaks about our very topic. It may shed some light on it.

 

[Deborah13]

When I said that I found the word to mean judgment I didn't mean condemnation but rather a deciding, such as judging whether someone or thing is right or wrong

OK, I understand you now and I believe we are in agreement.

Ok, what words of Paul's do you believe may give further information.

1Th 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

I would submit that we are judged because man was put over the creation and made responsible for it.

I agree with this. But I would say that in order for man to make responsible decisions he needs to be able to commune with God. To hear His voice in our inner man. Which I believe is our spirit.
If we are just like the animals, soul beings, who operate only from our own intellect, we cannot be responsible caretakers of the earth and those in it. On earth as it is in heaven.