Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun...

[Classik]

Pete did

Joh 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
Joh 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Jesus didn't tell him to get rid of the sword.

This i believe is one of those topics that is choice. If joe has faith the not use anything for protection good for joe. but joe need not judge sam for feeling the need of protection..



I agree move her along...

Not choice. Christ was completely against it. See that chapter I used.

 

[Classik]

Sheesh Classik what would a ball game be with out defense? :p

:toofunny
I could have given you a gold medal - except that it is just a game!

 

[Classik]

cough, all sports were originally to train the armies of ancients culture or combat orginally.

judo in part and mma were such things and greco roman wrestling and boxing.

and most of the olympic sports.

My Catalans are not trained for that.

 

[Classik]

It occurred to me that I did not respond directly to your scripture and I do apologize for that one! Let's see what I can do. Shall we?

Haha! Hehe! Ho ho!

Owning and using a gun doesn't some how factor God out of the equation. You seem to think that God dispatches all evils and all threats with angels and a blinding light that descends from Heaven (Well I don't propose you think this but it sure comes out to seem that way). God works through the our own hands and the hands of others. Case and point: the Bible. Did God write the Bible with His own two hands? No. He wrote them through the hands of His people. We even know who some of these hands belonged to (Matthew David Moses ect.).

God once did. Moses broke it
I do not totally disagree with self defence.
My problem with us is that People today so much put ther trust in weapons.
Are we paranoids today? (I do not mean you).

God works through many means not just the "miraculous" ones. Who is to say that an arrow or a blade set forth by a Jew long ago in the time of the Old Testament wasn't divinely guided by the Hands of God? In fact I'd suggest and I think you'd agree that those weapons were indeed guided by our Lord. Why would it be any different today?

God commanded them to do that.

Have we some how become more civilized in God's eyes? I surely think not as He doesn't lot us up based on national boundaries but He views us as a whole and we (as a whole) are no more civilized today than in the times of David.

The problem today is that many get unnecessarily frightened by mere 'shadows'. At the end they see all is 'mirage'.

In those days when I was a 'sophormore' (I think) something Happened. Students were studying in different blocks. That was around 10 pm. A female stood up and screamed and began running towards the door. Someone clattered downstairs the instant she screamed.

Instantly the whole students inside that particular building shivered with fear and raced towards the door.
The other blocks responded. A crazy chain activity. It was a crazy network of I-run-for-my-dear-life.

The entire university and community probably have gone aflame.

What has Happened?

Who is pursuing who? Who is(are) the bad guy(s)?
The security could not any. Later afterwards the school calmed down.

Security: 'You screamed and fled. What Happened?' she was asked

female: 'I-I-I am- am s-sorry.'

Security: 'Ok. Now tell us. What Happened? You screamed.'

With a gesture of her finger, she said:

female: 'He-he came and took my candy and began walking away. I looked and ther none left for me. So I stood and screamed and began racing after him.'

:D :biglol :toofunny

That is our mindset today - running when no one pursues you.

Verse here actually helps disprove your case. You are right in that the Lord does guard us! By it clearly says that the watchman (who defends the city) would do so in vain if it were not for God's own guarding of the city. It doesn't say that the watchman isn't needed it simply says that the watchman is useless without God's guiding hand and protective embrace! This is something I feel and I am sure any gun-tottin' Christian would agree with.

The watchman is needed, but
These verses are for People who completely rely upon their own abilities.

I don't pretend to know this verse enough to interpret it however I can apply it to real life. If this were always true (as you knowingly or not have asserted) then no Christian would ever be senselessly slain by the hands of an attacker for Jesus would send down legions of angels to defend that Christian body. Since this doesn't exactly happen on a daily basis it is not a proper assertions.

I'd also have to suggest that perhaps the context this scripture is currently being used in is not the right one. But I'd have to go do some more snooping. Allow me to get back to you on this one?

Patiently!

I don't get the point here. Are you saying all gun owners serve two masters because their guns take up such an extraordinary part of their lives? Isn't this something that can be applied to anyone who does anything in excess or who worships anything beyond God Himself? Since this does seem to be the case it isn't one expressly related to the act of defending oneself before an attacker and so I don't see why I ought to address this any further.
Sorry if that isn't sufficient. If it isn't I think I'll need more than five words in explanation of you justified use of the above scripture.

All I mean to say is 'some People are too conscious of their weapons'. They do not worry about calling upon God for direction. Give God His place and He will direct your way.

Proverbs 3 NKJV
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

Again I don't see it. Could you explain this further?

Ephesians 6: 12a and 23

 

[jasoncran]

My Catalans are not trained for that.

i am somewhat familiar with spain. running with the bulls isnt well passive is it? kinda violent eh. would jesus espouse needless torture of the bull before its death?


no, he wouldnt. ok that came from the roman gladitatioral days when animals and men were killed for sport.

in war often men who arent saved now the day the die or when it comes but that doesnt tell you when. there are times when you dont know. god doesnt go heres the baddy and he has a gun. sometimes but not all the times.

the sense of danger that pard will know about is common to all men. i has nothing to do with god but what he equipped us with.

next, i am well versed in mma and other arts. though not a chump i am not a professional but i do train alot.one can with a punching angry guy walk away.

if said guy had a knife and i can run what then?just die?

how is it different with feeding myself and others its not. prayer isnt magical do nothing. its asking for guidance and doing what you feel after consultation with the word and the spirit telling you.


for instance the job i have for the city didnt come by one day or by night but by mistakes and realising that this job wasnt it. god orchestrated and placed me where i am.


several weeks ago i was on my way to the paper route and saw a female girl by the gas station and gave her a ride to her house. no imagine this i see here lying on the ground and a man brandishing a knife over here heart.

i have no gun, dont carry, i can only call the cops. i can scare him but if he decides to take me on its not looking good for me.

now then change that with if i carry. i can call the cops and draw and do a citizens arrest and shoot if need be. most men dont want to die and will run or do as i say. if not they die.

 

[jasoncran]

trust in man and weapons, theres a reason i said what i said about doctors.

hey i feel depressed and down, lets go to the shrink and see what chemical imbalence i have. rather then God i dont feel happy can you heal me and then if you are lead then see the doctor. i was TOLD BY god i had ptsd , no doctor told me and when god revealed that he said i will heal thee.

 

[jasoncran]

Not choice. Christ was completely against it. See that chapter I used.

can you tell me why then the lord told peter to buy a sword?

luke 22:36

³⁶Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

so the lord is insane and tells them buy a sword then says its a sin to use it? its when pete was to use it that was wrong.

its like this. go and get a girl and get her naked but dont have sex with her. that isnt what the the lord does, the lord doesnt tempt and yet your pov implies just that. go and buy one but dont use it.

 

[Pard]

So your problem is self defense in general? Then I'd be very pleased if you would respond to my second post which contains some scriptures. I am fairly certain that God not only allows but requires us to defend ourselves. After all this life we each have is a gift from God and it shouldn't be something you hand over without a fight.

Also I can't stress enough... we are not talking about people who rely on their own abilities. We call them pagans. My topic is clearly aimed at Christians defending themselves. A Christian (by definition) relies on God so this premise that people do not rely on God needs to go out the window unless you are actually saying that no person who has/does/or will defend themselves relies on God and in this case you have some serious scripture to contest with and in fact you have need much more scriptural support than you have provided thus far.

 

[stovebolts]

can you tell me why then the lord told peter to buy a sword?

luke 22:36



so the lord is insane and tells them buy a sword then says its a sin to use it? its when pete was to use it that was wrong.

its like this. go and get a girl and get her naked but dont have sex with her. that isnt what the the lord does, the lord doesnt tempt and yet your pov implies just that. go and buy one but dont use it.

I believe Jesus was referencing the incident described in Exodus 32:27. Ramban has much to say on this which is right up Jesus Alley. There were three types of people who were in front of the Golden Calf ya know...

 

[stovebolts]

Exodus 22:2-3 tells us "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

If your life is in danger then God has given us permission to act accordingly.

Exactly, and the key word you used is "Accordingly". If we look at that verse, it is permissible to kill somebody who breaks into your house at night. However, it isn't permissible to kill somebody who breaks into your house during the day. Why is this?

To understand this, you have to understand the culture. People who broke in at night were known for killing the occupants of the house, especially if the home owner woke up while being robbed, while robbers during the day would break in when you were away, thus, their intent was only to steal, not murder...

I believe our modern laws are patterned out of this type of discernment because you can't shoot and kill somebody in a parking lot who's coming after you with a plastic butter knife...

 

[Pard]

My understanding was that it was written that way because you cannot tell a robber from a murderer in the night. That is interesting to know also Stove.

In comparison to modern day... burglary at night is a Class B and burglary at day is a Class C.

 

[stovebolts]

Christ never used weapons. The disciples never used weapons.

Christ used a whip and Peter cut off an ear...

Sorry, just saying ;)

But anyway, to try and use those two incidents to justify having a gun to protect yourself would be to completely miss the intent of what the scriptures where the whip and sword are mentioned... It's like me telling you that you can't use musical instruments in your worship because nowhere do you see Jesus or his disciples using them.. The best we have would be after the dinner when they went out and sung a song...

I think it best to always look at the main intent behind a passage, and then build from there.

 

[stovebolts]

My understanding was that it was written that way because you cannot tell a robber from a murderer in the night. That is interesting to know also Stove.

In comparison to modern day... burglary at night is a Class B and burglary at day is a Class C.

wow, we both learned a bit more today

And people say our country isn't founded on biblical principals ;) :toofunny

 

[Pard]

Christ said to sell your cloak and buy a sword.

 

[Drew]

Who is to say that Jesus won't use a weapon to save you?

If anyone thinks it is wrong for a Christian to own a gun then they are thinking wrong.

A gun is a powerful symbol of some of the very things Jesus strove to overturn – the exertion of power of one person over another and the destruction of life that is precious to its Creator.

<O:p</O:pWhen we embrace guns, we are effectively saying “no” to the imperative to seek the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

</st1:PlaceType>kingdom of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">God</st1:PlaceName></ST1:pl. We are saying that we reserve the right to solve a problem by taking the bloodshed route. Less dramatically perhaps, we are saying that it is OK to buy into the world’s power structures through embracing the very symbol of the use of power to achieve one’s ends. Saying “yes” to guns in the society is effectively a way of saying that Jesus is not yet Lord and that we need hunker down and use the tools of “this evil age” to wait for his return.

The gun is kind of like the cross - they are both powerful symbols of the power to deal death. Ironically, and yet wonderfully, Jesus turned things around and uses the cross to defeat death. When we buy into a culture of having guns, we are, whether we realize it or not, denying the accomplishment of the cross.

When Jesus entered history, He challenged <st1:country-region w:st="on">Israel</st1:country-region> to abandon its ways of “being <st1:country-region w:st="on"><ST1:pIsrael</ST1:p</st1:country-region>”. Jews were taking one of three wrong paths – the path of withdrawal from the world, the path of compromise with the world, and the path of militant zealotry. By embracing guns as an acceptable element of our world, we are making the same error as the militant zealots – using the power system of the threat of the “sword” to achieve ends.

I fully understand that is an entirely separate question as to whether we can indeed keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But in that case, the best long term kingdom honouring answer is not to arm ourselves, but to figure out ways to get guns out of the hands of everybody.<O:p</O:p

 

[Drew]

Christ used a whip and Peter cut off an ear...

Sorry, just saying ;).

If I am not mistaken, Jesus admonished Peter for his action.

And Jesus used the whip as a symbolic act of judgement against the temple. One cannot, I suggest, use this example to legitimate the use of weapons by the Christian.

 

[stovebolts]

I fully understand that is an entirely separate question as to whether we can indeed keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But in that case, the best long term kingdom honouring answer is not to arm ourselves, but to figure out ways to get guns out of the hands of everybody.

Drew,
Respectfully, guns are not the problem... People are.
Why did Jesus over turn the tables in the Temple, and why did he bring out a whip? Drew, it's not wrong to stand up for what's right, and unfortunately sometimes you have to speak a language that others understand.

I'm sorry Drew, but if we all threw our guns away, the only ones who would have guns would be the criminals. It's just the way the world is, but it's a reality and you cannot escape that reality by going into some crystal theological palace.

Let's look back in history. How would you have prevented Hitlers assault?

When a ravaging wolf is running toward you, it's not the time to ask it about it's puppy hood.

 

[Classik]

can you tell me why then the lord told peter to buy a sword?

luke 22:36



so the lord is insane and tells them buy a sword then says its a sin to use it? its when pete was to use it that was wrong.

its like this. go and get a girl and get her naked but dont have sex with her. that isnt what the the lord does, the lord doesnt tempt and yet your pov implies just that. go and buy one but dont use it.

Luke 22 NKJV

-
-
36 Then He said to them, But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
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I know and understand what you are trying to say here. I do not believed Christ asked them to carry swords. Look at the next verse.


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37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: And He was numbered with the transgressors. For the things concerning Me have an end.



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I see 37 to mean: whether you decide to fight on my behalf or not (as He knew they would attempt doing)...you can't stop Me from fulfilling the work of the Cross. Whatever violent measures you could wish to apply...I'd certainly die.

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38 So they said, Lord, look, here are two swords. And He said to them, It is enough.



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'It is enough', to me understanding is: Do they think they need some swords to end it - and stop me from dying? I let them take it - and I will show them they do not need it. I won't upset them any more.

with reference to the 3 verses above (He must have known their mind)

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Mathew 26 NKJV

51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

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They probably had brought those swords along.

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52 But Jesus said to him, Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

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Jesus' intent was made clear to them. I believe this clears the doubt in verses 36, 37, 38 of Luke 22.
If not then why would Christ 'publicly' frown :angry at His disciple's use of violence.
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54 Howthen could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?

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No swords! Court!

 

[Pard]

Truly I made a mistake with this topic. it should have always been solely focused on defending oneself. I ought to have taken the gun reference out of it entirely because people are getting so very hung up on the gun aspect and don't even address the main topic which is DEFENSE.

 

[stovebolts]

If I am not mistaken, Jesus admonished Peter for his action.

Yes he did Drew, and had you read the rest of that post, I clearly stated that it could not be used as an argument for or against weapons. Clearly, it was a refute to his assertion that neither Jesus nor his disciples used weapons, which clearly is not the case.

I am surprised drew, you are usually a much more careful reader than that.

and Jesus used the whip as a symbolic act of judgement against the temple. One cannot, I suggest, use this example to legitimate the use of weapons by the Christian.

Psalms 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.

Jesus used the whip because his zeal consumed him... The only way to get them out of the temple, was to drive them out... It's what they understood, just like those who had to be driven out of Egypt...

I would assert that if somebody came into your house with a gun, much like what happened to Reba, they wouldn't care less about a theological statement... But they would understand a gun being pointed back at them.