Our salvation is in Mary

[donadams]

1. We are encouraged to pray for others and to ask others for their prayers.
This is biblical. Paul asks people to pray for him
"Pray also for me, so that when I speak, a message may be given to me to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it boldly, as I must speak." (Eph 6:19-20).
See also , Col 4:3, Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 3:1.

Paul writes to Timothy "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men…" (1Tim 2:1)

2. The Saints in heaven are validly included in that
This comes from the concept of the “communion of saints”. We believe Mary and the Saints are as alive and available to us as anyone still on this earth. We believe that those who have gone before us into heaven are one with us. They are all part of the one body of which Christ is the head.

“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12:12-13)

When they died to this life they did not cease to exist, their souls did not cease to be one with Christ, to be part of his body.
Jesus said: “..whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" (Jn 11:26). Therefore those who truly believe in Jesus never die. They are still part of His body. Jesus does not have a body with dead bits in it.

3. They can and do intercede for us in heaven
God is logical. That is evident just looking at creation. Now what do the scriptures say Jesus is doing in heaven?
“… he is for ever to intercede for all who come to God through him.” (Heb 7:25).
Now, we, on earth, are to be imitating him, what he did while on earth.
“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” (1Cor 11;1)
Why would we stop imitating Jesus just because we go to heaven? Why would we sit around and twiddle our thumbs while our Lord and King is interceding for those on earth?
Does our service to our Lord end when we go to heaven?
Or is the body doing what the Head is doing?
Now Mary and the Saints are mighty prayer warriors. Think about it. Are they hindered by such things as human failings and needs (such as sleep)? Those in heaven have no hindrances of such a nature, they are made perfect, so they are even mightier than those of us on earth.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective?

Then consider these two texts
“When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” (Rev 5:8)
And
“Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne.” (Rev 8:3)
If the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Yes God is the source of all that is good, but God only receives prayers addressed to him, those address to idols, false gods, images, icons etc are not received by him.

As you say it is the intent that is important. So how do you differentiate between veneration, the bowing before an object and worship, the bowing before an object?

The intent to worship as one's God, obviously.
Do you believe in the Communion of the Saints?
As an Orthodox Christian, I believe I am in Communion with the entire Church, past, present, and future, spiritually/mystically. I am united to all of the Saints through Jesus.

 

[donadams]

All are one in Christ Jesus!

Amen?

 

[JLB]

JLB,
I understand where you are coming from, however, when the Word became Flesh, the Lord united humanity with His Divinity in an inexplicable way.
The Church has always maintained that the Two Nature's of Christ are inseparable and undivided
. Thus, Mary is the mother of the Second Person of the Trinity.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh

Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood Man who was made a little lower than the angels.


But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9


God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh. Mary is the mother of the Man Jesus Christ.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

All are one in Christ Jesus!

Amen?

Amen.
Christ is amongst us. Now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh

Mary gave birth to the flesh and blood Man who was made a little lower than the angels.


But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9


God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh. Mary is the mother of the Man Jesus Christ.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

Do you believe that Jesus was only a man? If He is the Word made Flesh, then He is not just a man, He is also God. And certainly what is born of spirit is spirit. Yet, God, when He became Flesh, melded His Deity to the Flesh and that occurred in MARY'S WOMB. She then gave birth to the Word made Flesh. You are trying to separate Jesus' Humanity from His Deity and that is not possible.
I understand your reticence. I grew up reading Chick Tracts. I get it. You are leery of even giving a semblance of "worship" to Mary.
But try to leave that aside just for a moment and think about the fact that the very Word of God Who is Begotten of the Father by Him Speaking Creation into existence, CHOSE to meld His Deity with that of lowly, mortal flesh and blood, and that when He did so, He did so in the lowly womb of a lowly Hebrew virgin girl. She thus became the God-Bearer; not of herself. Not in her own power, but through the power of God Himself.
In so doing, Mary, and all women with her, are reconciled to God, from the disobedience of Eve. This is sooooooooo special for women. Protestantism robs Christian women of this special relationship in which h Motherhood is elevated and reconciled to God through Mary's obedience.
She is the Ark wherein the Mystery of God is held. She is the Tabernacle, which conains the Glory of God. She is the Ark which bore the salvation of man through the waters of death.
You miss so much, because you think that acknowledging all of this detracts from Jesus, when it is only through Jesus that it has any meaning at all.
May the Lord be with you. And may the most blessed and holy Theotokos watch over your family

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that Jesus was only a man?

I believe God (the Son) became flesh. A little lower that the angels.

I believe God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh…

 

[donadams]

I believe God (the Son) became flesh. A little lower that the angels.

I believe God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh…

Is the flesh unimportant?

Is it not His flesh crucified and the shedding of His blood make the propitiatory sacrifice of the lamb of God?

Thks

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I believe God (the Son) became flesh. A little lower that the angels.

I believe God is Spirit.

Mary gave birth to flesh.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh…

I am just trying to be clear on what you are saying.
Are you saying here that God did not join His Divinity, with earthly Flesh?

 

[JLB]

I am just trying to be clear on what you are saying.
Are you saying here that God did not join His Divinity, with earthly Flesh?

Please show me the scripture that says that God joined His Divinity with earthly flesh so I know what you mean.

 

[Who Me]

The intent to worship as one's God, obviously.
Do you believe in the Communion of the Saints?
As an Orthodox Christian, I believe I am in Communion with the entire Church, past, present, and future, spiritually/mystically. I am united to all of the Saints through Jesus.

If the intent is to worship God, why not worship God instead of man made idols.

As Christians we are part of an unseen body the head of which is Jesus.

It is Jesus who is every Christians focus.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Please show me the scripture that says that God joined His Divinity with earthly flesh so I know what you mean.

"And the Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us".....John 1:14

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

If the intent is to worship God, why not worship God instead of man made idols.

As Christians we are part of an unseen body the head of which is Jesus.

It is Jesus who is every Christians focus.

As stated, we do not worship man-made idols.
Again, I ask you, do you believe in the Communion of the Saints?

 

[donadams]

Please show me the scripture that says that God joined His Divinity with earthly flesh so I know what you mean.

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[donadams]

If the intent is to worship God, why not worship God instead of man made idols.

As Christians we are part of an unseen body the head of which is Jesus.

It is Jesus who is every Christians focus.

And Mary is the telescope lk 1:46

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

 

[JLB]

"And the Word became Flesh and dwelt amongst us".....John 1:14

This says the Word became flesh.

Became means He was one thing then BECAME something else.

Something a little lower than the angels.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

 

[JLB]

Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This says the Word became flesh.

Became means He was one thing then BECAME something else.

Something a little lower than the angels.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

This says the Word became flesh.

Became means He was one thing then BECAME something else.

Something a little lower than the angels.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9

You are ignoring the Scripture which states that in Jesus, all the fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily.
Sorry friend, Jesus only emptied Himself of His Glory. He still retained His Divinity.

 

[donadams]

You are ignoring the Scripture which states that in Jesus, all the fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily.
Sorry friend, Jesus only emptied Himself of His Glory. He still retained His Divinity.

And what man has power to humble himself and choose to become a man?

Thks

 

[JLB]

You are ignoring the Scripture which states that in Jesus, all the fulness of the Godhead dwelt bodily.

Did Mary give birth to the fullness of the Godhead?