Paul, James and Sotereology

[Quantrill]

Give me a verse stating you deserve hell just for existing. Only a megalomaniac god would issue such a decree. I feel terrible for your children that their own father believes they deserve hell after having brought them into the world.

I invite you to learn about Jesus
Christ. He is our Good Samaritan and unlike Calvin’s God, he does not leave folks on the side of the road for dead. He reveals that God is not a megalomaniac who is out to send his children to hell. To the contrary, He loves man so much, He became one.

(Rom. 5:12) (Rom. 5:18) Read all of (Romans 5).

Again, I didn't say God is going to send His children to hell. That is your statement. As is your accusation of God being a megalomaniac.

In God's plan of redemption He accounted all guilty in the head of the human race, Adam. He therefore counts all righteous in the Head of the redeemed race, Christ. The key is being 'in Christ'.

This is why Christ is called the Last Adam. (1 Cor. 15:45) He is the last representative of the human race. Which is why we should never call Christ the second Adam. For that implies a third and fourth etc.

If God does not do it this way, then Jesus could only die for one person. A life for a life.

So, yes, that sweet cuddly baby is stained with Adams sin.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

How do you understand James 2:14-26?

It's by God's grace, which is undeserved favor of God even though none deserve it, that by faith, which is Christ Jesus that by the sacrifice He made for all that we can come before Him with a heart of repentance that He forgives our past sins as our inner man is made renewed by His Spirit.

Faith alone saves us, but obedience to His commands in we carrying out the works of the Lord is what keeps our faith strong as we build upon it. Faith without works is dead faith if you do not pick up your cross and follow Christ.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that when we are born-again, that our past sins have been paid for but not our sins we will yet commit. Is that right?

Concerning (James 2:14-26), salvation entails more than our just going to Heaven. Our immediate salvation is when we first believed. Then there is a walk of salvation, being delivered from the world, the flesh, and the devil. Then there is our final salvation where we are before God glorified in body, soul, and spirit.

In these verses James is speaking to our walk of salvation, not our immediate salvation. He makes this very clear in the two examples he uses with Abraham and Rahab. (2: 21,25). With Abraham he uses the offering up of Isaac. (Gen. 22)This was well after Abraham was counted righteous by faith. (Gen. 15:6) With Rahab he uses her act of hiding the spies. This too was well after she had already believed. (Joshua 2:9-11)

Yes, of course we can have a strong or a weak faith.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

The payment for sin is not the forgiveness of sin.

I never said it was.

The payment for sin is death.

The blood is the evidence that death has occurred.




JLB

 

[JLB]

How many of your sins did Christ pay for?

Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all my sins, as well as the world’s.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So what ever sin I confess, it s that sin that will be forgiven.





JLB

 

[JLB]

The 'if' you want to highlight pertains to our walk, not our being declared righteous by faith in Christ.

The righteous of faith, comes by our obedience; the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Do you need some examples from the scriptures?





JLB

 

[Walpole]

(Rom. 5:12) (Rom. 5:18) Read all of (Romans 5).

Again, I didn't say God is going to send His children to hell. That is your statement. As is your accusation of God being a megalomaniac.

In God's plan of redemption He accounted all guilty in the head of the human race, Adam. He therefore counts all righteous in the Head of the redeemed race, Christ. The key is being 'in Christ'.

This is why Christ is called the Last Adam. (1 Cor. 15:45) He is the last representative of the human race. Which is why we should never call Christ the second Adam. For that implies a third and fourth etc.

If God does not do it this way, then Jesus could only die for one person. A life for a life.

So, yes, that sweet cuddly baby is stained with Adams sin.

Quantrill

You said the following:

"Well, actually, we deserve hell. That is what we deserve." - You, Post #31

"Yes, my and any other children deserve hell." - You, Post #38


I'm looking for a verse in Scripture affirming your assertion that you deserve hell simply for existing.

Again, only a megalomaniac god would issue such a decree. I once again invite you to learn about Jesus Christ, who shatters the Calvinist notion of a megalomaniac god and reveals the true God, who is love. This God loves man so much He became one. He is the Good Samaritan.

 

[Quantrill]

Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient to pay for all my sins, as well as the world’s.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

• He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

So what ever sin I confess, it s that sin that will be forgiven.





JLB

How many of your sins did Christ's sacrifice pay for? You are hedging.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The righteous of faith, comes by our obedience; the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



Do you need some examples from the scriptures?





JLB

I need you to answer my questions. How many sins did Christ pay for? When you were born again, how many of your sins did Christ pay for?

As I said, the 'if' you highlighted pertains to our walk of salvation. Not our being declared righteous by God by faith.

Please answer.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You said the following:

"Well, actually, we deserve hell. That is what we deserve." - You, Post #31

"Yes, my and any other children deserve hell." - You, Post #38


I'm looking for a verse in Scripture affirming your assertion that you deserve hell simply for existing.

Again, only a megalomaniac god would issue such a decree. I once again invite you to learn about Jesus Christ, who shatters the Calvinist notion of a megalomaniac god and reveals the true God, who is love. This God loves man so much He became one. He is the Good Samaritan.

I just gave you the verses. All are born sinners due to Adam. They are in a place of condemnation at that time. If you're a sinner, you deserve hell. Infant babies deserve hell.

And, you can keep calling God a megalomaniac all you want. But in actuality, that is the best thing He did for mankind. He found them all guilty in one. He can redeem all in One.

If it is not done this way, then Christ could only die for one person. A life for a life. Whose the megalomaniac now?

Quantrill

 

[Butch5]

How many of your sins did Christ's sacrifice pay for? You are hedging.

Quantrill

Paid? To whom is payment made? How does Christs death "pay" for sins?

 

[GodsGrace]

I just gave you the verses. All are born sinners due to Adam. They are in a place of condemnation at that time. If you're a sinner, you deserve hell. Infant babies deserve hell.

And, you can keep calling God a megalomaniac all you want. But in actuality, that is the best thing He did for mankind. He found them all guilty in one. He can redeem all in One.

If it is not done this way, then Christ could only die for one person. A life for a life. Whose the megalomaniac now?

Quantrill

How is a baby a sinner if he's never sinned?
We are born with the effect of Adam's sin...
not imputed with his sin....

Augustine taught the doctrine that babies are imputed with Adam's sin...
thus the hurry to get them baptized and forgiven.

Are YOU in a hurry for the babies you know to be baptized?
If so why.

 

[for_his_glory]

If I understand you correctly, you believe that when we are born-again, that our past sins have been paid for but not our sins we will yet commit. Is that right?

No, Jesus paid the price for all our sin, but yet He is faithful and just to forgive them as we still need to confess them every time we fall short. Many are taught Jesus already forgave our past, present and future sins and when we do sin that's ok because they are automatically forgiven and this is a false teaching.

1John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[for_his_glory]

If I understand you correctly, you believe that when we are born-again, that our past sins have been paid for but not our sins we will yet commit. Is that right?

Concerning (James 2:14-26), salvation entails more than our just going to Heaven. Our immediate salvation is when we first believed. Then there is a walk of salvation, being delivered from the world, the flesh, and the devil. Then there is our final salvation where we are before God glorified in body, soul, and spirit.

In these verses James is speaking to our walk of salvation, not our immediate salvation. He makes this very clear in the two examples he uses with Abraham and Rahab. (2: 21,25). With Abraham he uses the offering up of Isaac. (Gen. 22)This was well after Abraham was counted righteous by faith. (Gen. 15:6) With Rahab he uses her act of hiding the spies. This too was well after she had already believed. (Joshua 2:9-11)

Yes, of course we can have a strong or a weak faith.

Quantrill

James 2:14-26 is about faith being without works is dead faith that will never be built upon and strengthen. It's our walk of faith as we walk in the Spirit of God, not of salvation although this is the beginning part of faith as in when we first by faith believed in Christ.

SALVATION – delivered from sin, promise of our welfare brought about by faith in Christ Jesus.

Salvation means to be whole mind, body and soul as we surrender our will to God and allow his will to work in our lives by applying Gods word to every aspect of our lives. This allows us to know the mind of Christ and all the promises of God for our own well being so we can face anything that tries to come against us while here on this earth so we can triumph and be victorious through the grace and mercy of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.​

 

[Quantrill]

Paid? To whom is payment made? How does Christs death "pay" for sins?

Are you really asking that?

Quantrill

 

[Butch5]

Are you really asking that?

Quantrill

Yes, that's an honest question

 

[Quantrill]

How is a baby a sinner if he's never sinned?
We are born with the effect of Adam's sin...
not imputed with his sin....

Augustine taught the doctrine that babies are imputed with Adam's sin...
thus the hurry to get them baptized and forgiven.

Are YOU in a hurry for the babies you know to be baptized?
If so why.

Did you read the Scriptures I gave. Apparently not.

(Rom. 5:12) "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

(Rom. 5:13) "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression....."

Do you see? From Adam to Moses all those people did not die because of their sins. They died because of Adams sin. God did not impute their sins to them as they were under no law. He did impute Adams sin to them, so they died.
Which is why babies die today. They are born with Adams sin.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you read the Scriptures I gave. Apparently not.

(Rom. 5:12) "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

(Rom. 5:13) "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression....."

Do you see? From Adam to Moses all those people did not die because of their sins. They died because of Adams sin. God did not impute their sins to them as they were under no law. He did impute Adams sin to them, so they died.
Which is why babies die today. They are born with Adams sin.

Quantrill

Romans 5:13 states that sin was NOT imputed. They died of Adam's sin...not their own. RIGHT!
So why is a baby lost at birth??
Too late here.
Tomorrow.

 

[Butch5]

Did you read the Scriptures I gave. Apparently not.

(Rom. 5:12) "...so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

(Rom. 5:13) "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression....."

Do you see? From Adam to Moses all those people did not die because of their sins. They died because of Adams sin. God did not impute their sins to them as they were under no law. He did impute Adams sin to them, so they died.
Which is why babies die today. They are born with Adams sin.

Quantrill

It doesn't say He imputed Adam's sin to them

 

[Quantrill]

No, Jesus paid the price for all our sin, but yet He is faithful and just to forgive them as we still need to confess them every time we fall short. Many are taught Jesus already forgave our past, present and future sins and when we do sin that's ok because they are automatically forgiven and this is a false teaching.

1John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Why are you arguing with me then? Where did I say Jesus forgave all our sins, past and future. What I have said is there is a difference between Jesus paying the price for sin and Jesus being our Advocate. Paying the price and forgiveness are two separate actions. Jesus can forgive because He has paid the price.

All the verses you gave are good verses. They add nothing to your 'argument'.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Romans 5:13 states that sin was NOT imputed. They died of Adam's sin...not their own. RIGHT!
So why is a baby lost at birth??
Too late here.
Tomorrow.

No, it says their sins were not imputed to them as they were not under law. So forget their individual sins.

But they died. Why? Because of Adams sin. Adams sin was imputed to them.

Babies are lost at birth because they are guilty of Adam's sin.

Quantrill